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HS coaches overusing pitchers!


IrishCoffee
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Over the last month I have seen some terrible overuse of young arms with teams we have played. The latest involved a junior pitcher from Kingston that pitched over 50 pitches in our first district game with them and then came back two nights later and threw 110 + pitches during our second game!

 

Alcoa's really good junior pitcher threw 125 against us when he beat us earlier in the year. A CAK dad said he threw that many against them a few days later and had even more in a non district game the prior game. I find this appalling! 

 

I have heard that both of these kids are D1 prospects and are obviously talented competitors that want to stay in the game, but these two coaches are putting their careers at risk trying to win a HS game. If they cannot police themselves I think it is time to have the TSSAA step in with mandatory pitch counts and days off. 

 

Is this all over the state or just a problem in our district??

Edited by IrishCoffee
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TSSAA needs to stay out of it, plain and simple.  First of all I seriously doubt these guys are D1 pitchers, because D1 pitchers don't need 120+ pitches to win a game in AA.  The vast majority of coaches take care of the arms of their pitchers because having fresh arms in May gives them the best chance of advancing in the tournament. 99% of high school players are not going to play in college.  If a kid wants to compete and give his team a chance to win, I say let them go.  Good coaches are smart enough on when to rest em and when to roll em. 

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TSSAA needs to stay out of it, plain and simple.  First of all I seriously doubt these guys are D1 pitchers, because D1 pitchers don't need 120+ pitches to win a game in AA.  The vast majority of coaches take care of the arms of their pitchers because having fresh arms in May gives them the best chance of advancing in the tournament. 99% of high school players are not going to play in college.  If a kid wants to compete and give his team a chance to win, I say let them go.  Good coaches are smart enough on when to rest em and when to roll em. 

When you have multiple errors behind you your pitch count goes up a ton. Wil Crowe, who was a pretty strong D1 prospect, threw 157 in the State Championship game a couple of years ago. Where was Wil Crowe last week? Having Tommy John surgery at the Andrews Clinic in FL!

 

article:

 

MURFREESBORO — A plastic bag of ice rested on the infield grass of Middle Tennessee State’s Reese Smith Jr. Field late Friday afternoon, and it was reserved for Wil Crowe.

He wanted no part of it and set his glove on top of it.

Even after a 157-pitch, 15-strikeout effort in Pigeon Forge’s 5-3, come-from-behind win over Goodpasture in the Class AA state championship, the senior pitcher said his arm felt fine and wanted only to pose for celebratory pictures — with the championship trophy that nearly escaped him.

“It doesn’t hurt, ever,†Crowe said of his arm, “especially today.â€

It helped that the Tigers (39-2) captured the school’s first team championship in any sport by scoring three runs in the top of the seventh inning

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Over the last month I have seen some terrible overuse of young arms with teams we have played. The latest involved a junior pitcher from Kingston that pitched over 50 pitches in our first district game with them and then came back two nights later and threw 110 + pitches during our second game!

 

Alcoa's really good junior pitcher threw 125 against us when he beat us earlier in the year. A CAK dad said he threw that many against them a few days later and had even more in a non district game the prior game. I find this appalling! 

 

I have heard that both of these kids are D1 prospects and are obviously talented competitors that want to stay in the game, but these two coaches are putting their careers at risk trying to win a HS game. If they cannot police themselves I think it is time to have the TSSAA step in with mandatory pitch counts and days off. 

 

Is this all over the state or just a problem in our district??

 

I would say that it's more prevalent in the college ranks. From my experiences, coaches tend to be conservative with the pitchers that they have. The spot you have to watch out for the most is when a school who hasn't had a history of success or talent gets a supremely talented player. Coaches in those situations might ride a guy too much compared to others.

 

In college, coaches like Augie Garrido, Jim Schlossnagle, and Mik Aoki have been known to shred arms like no one's business. There's a tendency with college coaches to win today instead of protecting a kid. 

 

I think the main problem is letting the kid decide. They've been taught at a young age that admitting fatigue or pain is a weakness instead of an indicator. The coach needs to have a handle on when pushing through becomes a losing endeavor. Any pitcher who throws that much is probably very competitive anyways, so the coach has to protect them against themselves.

 

That's why it's such a slippery slope. No pitcher is the same, and they all have different limits. It's an inexact science. I do think if they were to institute a pitch count it would need to be a high number, just to have a ceiling in place. The problem is that the number could be fudged very easily 

 

Legislating the days off might be more acceptable, but even then the kids are usually at a different position, so do they have to stay out and not play in the field, since some throwing is involved there? It's tough and I'm not sure there's an easy answer. 

Edited by eyeintheskytn
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TSSAA is already a part of it.  Their post season set up is tailor made for riding one arm to the state championship.  There's no pitch count, no day's rest requirement, nothing.  Next Wednesday's region game is the best shot at getting a day off for the stud pitcher.  He'll pitch on Monday in the elimination game and coach will throw off in the Wednesday seeding game to give the arms a break.  Then back at it for the elimination game at sub-state and opening game of state.  It's set up for a dominant #1 to pitch 3 out of 4 games.

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TSSAA needs to stay out of it, plain and simple.  First of all I seriously doubt these guys are D1 pitchers, because D1 pitchers don't need 120+ pitches to win a game in AA.  The vast majority of coaches take care of the arms of their pitchers because having fresh arms in May gives them the best chance of advancing in the tournament. 99% of high school players are not going to play in college.  If a kid wants to compete and give his team a chance to win, I say let them go.  Good coaches are smart enough on when to rest em and when to roll em. 

That depends on if there are rules violations etc.  I am sure Cleveland and Bradley Central would love to tell that Childress man to stay out of their business.

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Parents and players need to take charge of their athletes health, not the coaches.  The coaches are out there to win, nothing more, nothing less.  The only people who truly look after little Tommy is little Tommy and his parents.  If you have a pitcher and they are a true college prospect, then you should have a talk with the coach early in the year about pitch counts and stick to it.  But let's face facts, 95+% of these boys will ends their baseball careers after their senior year.  If those players want to throw their arm off, go for it.

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Parents and players need to take charge of their athletes health, not the coaches.  The coaches are out there to win, nothing more, nothing less.  The only people who truly look after little Tommy is little Tommy and his parents.  If you have a pitcher and they are a true college prospect, then you should have a talk with the coach early in the year about pitch counts and stick to it.  But let's face facts, 95+% of these boys will ends their baseball careers after their senior year.  If those players want to throw their arm off, go for it.

This coach does care about his pitchers and WON'T overwork them and I will add have been successful doing that while winning games, so it can be done. For me, it is my job not just to win games, but keep our kids healthy becuase if they are hurt then it makes it harder to well win games!

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The problem is a real one.  There is no way for the TSSAA to sanction pitch counts, innings, days rest, etc...  This issue can only be solved by protection through proper offseason programs and set rotations during school ball.  Proper programs can implement long toss programs, mechanics programs, and proper weight lifting programs (for pitchers).  Coaches can help prevent injury in season by limiting pitch counts on days where you are the better team on the schedule.  Percentage of certain pitches should be taken into account.  Days where your "stud" can overpower and get outs with fastball then you should stay above the 80% mark with the pitch in a certain game.  The introduction of the slider and emphasis on the curveball in highschool baseball has started to deteriorate arms at a rapid pace.  Kids want to learn the curveball and slider before proper mechanics are learned for a fastball and the best pitch that nobody knows about...the CHANGEUP.  This can be tied back to 10-12 and 13-15 age kids who love the strikout more than the groundout.  Groundouts save pitch counts   Strikeouts are sexy, but in the end inflate pitch counts to an astonishing number. 

Just my two cents here.  I could be very wrong.

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This coach does care about his pitchers and WON'T overwork them and I will add have been successful doing that while winning games, so it can be done. For me, it is my job not just to win games, but keep our kids healthy becuase if they are hurt then it makes it harder to well win games!

 

Totally agree here. If the Coach has a win at all costs attitude it sends a message to other kids about how he treats his players. There's a lot more to it than just winning. Besides, Coaches are the ones who see them in practice everyday and can judge situation better than parents can more often than not.

 

A lot of kids will forget the wins and the losses, but they'll remember how they're treated and how the coaches made them feel as a result of it. 

 

I tend to worry about the parent being involved too much, if only because it can bring more anxiety. I've seen coaches who unfortunately tell their kid one thing, then have a parent in the stands tell them something completely contradictory. 

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The problem is a real one.  There is no way for the TSSAA to sanction pitch counts, innings, days rest, etc...  This issue can only be solved by protection through proper offseason programs and set rotations during school ball.  Proper programs can implement long toss programs, mechanics programs, and proper weight lifting programs (for pitchers).  Coaches can help prevent injury in season by limiting pitch counts on days where you are the better team on the schedule.  Percentage of certain pitches should be taken into account.  Days where your "stud" can overpower and get outs with fastball then you should stay above the 80% mark with the pitch in a certain game.  The introduction of the slider and emphasis on the curveball in highschool baseball has started to deteriorate arms at a rapid pace.  Kids want to learn the curveball and slider before proper mechanics are learned for a fastball and the best pitch that nobody knows about...the CHANGEUP.  This can be tied back to 10-12 and 13-15 age kids who love the strikout more than the groundout.  Groundouts save pitch counts   Strikeouts are sexy, but in the end inflate pitch counts to an astonishing number. 

Just my two cents here.  I could be very wrong.

 

I think you're on the right track. Kids are learning pitches at earlier ages than ever before instead of growing at a slower pace. I think there's also a tendency for kids to be "throwers" rather than "pitchers". They want to try and throw every pitch known to man and look cool doing it, and who wouldn't want to do that? Unfortunately, It's like trying to win a fistfight with a nuclear weapon. You've got the means to end the fight more effectively with less fallout. A kid who can change speeds effectively can often times beat one who's trying to throw seventeen different pitches and can't locate any of them.

 

I feel like a lot of times things just get over complicated. Too many pitchers try to be what they're not, and the coach needs to step in and have them focus on staying in their lane, whether that's a decent pitcher or a D1 prospect. If your pitcher can throw a curve, great. If he's tried for months and can't control or locate it, then scrap it.

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