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Public/Private: What are the real issues?


MountainTroll
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No one can build a consensus on this issue because there are so many factors that affect parity in high school athletics. I believe the primary factor that determines the success or failure of a high school athletic program or sport is the commitment of the community. Particularly in football, it takes a lot of money and resources to build a successful program. (The number and quality of coaches, as well as how much time they are allowed to commit to coaching, is directly related to how much the school is willing or able to pay. Facilities, equipment, and overall support of an athletic department are expensive.) Some private schools commit huge resources to athletics, and some don't. Some public schools commit huge resources to athletics, and some don't.

 

All of the recruiting rules, financial aide rules, zoning rules, and transfer rules have tried to address this disparity, but they cannot.

 

Recruiting: Blatant recruiting is probably not good for high school sports, and should be discouraged. But, everybody recruits. Players talk, parents talk, boosters talk, coaches and administrators get involve. Difficult to prove, and darned near impossible to enforce. T$$AA should investigate it more aggressively and pop the schools and coaches caught, but it is what it is.

 

Financial Aide: Most private schools (and the churches and alumni that support them) offer financial aide to some degree or another. To promote diversity and fulfill their mission, they have to do this and should be allowed to do it. Since athletes (by T$$AA rule) cannot receive financial aide in DI, a number of private schools have devised methods to circumvent the financial aide rules. Again, this is hard to prove, and it would take a forensic accounting analysis of the school, the church, and private family bank records to enforce the rule. That ain't gonna happen. The T$$AA has even flatly stated that it does not have the legal resources to take on the Catholic church. Perhaps all schools that offer financial aide, whether to athletes or not, should be in a separate division.

 

Zoning: School zoning is a local issue. It is impossible for the T$$AA to address all of the local variations in zoning rules. Most zoning rules are propagated to facilitate a school district's primary function (education) and to facilitate the allocation of limited resources. Do some communities use zoning rules to facilitate their athletic programs? Yes, but there realistically isn't anything the T$$AA can do to correct this disparity. It gets back to a community's support or lack of support for athletics. I don't believe the T$$AA should or could do anything to try to address disparities in zoning rules or school demographics (rural vs urban).

 

Transfers: All high school athletic associations have lengthy and convoluted transfer rules. I believe most of these rules are written as an indirect way of trying to cut down on recruiting and to stop overly zealous parents from doing stupid things. However, overly zealous parents will do stupid things, and will even lie and cheat if they have to. I suspect more student athletes have been hindered or hurt by transfer rules than have been helped, and I doubt these rules have affected recruiting very much. If a student is enrolled in a particular school by the local school board, he/she should be eligible to play sports.

 

This all just my two cents worth of what I think the T$$AA should do:

Try to police recruiting as much as possible.

Separate schools that offer financial aide (whether to athletes or not) and drop the multiplier.

Leave zoning issues to the local communities.

Do away with transfer rules. If student is enrolled, then he/she is eligible.

 

I think that is the most the T$$AA can do to provide a level playing field. It will then be up to each individual school, booster organization, alumni organization, church, city, county, and school district to determine how important athletics is to their overall mission.
 

The private schools with the financial resources to offer any financial aide (not just athletes) presumably have the financial resources to build athletic programs and compete against other schools with similar financial resources if they choose. Small privates without those financial resources can compete with the poor public schools. Public schools with huge community support (Maryville, Greeneville, Alcoa, Union City) will still have an advantage, but other public schools will be able to compete with them if they can generate sufficient local community support.

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No one can build a consensus on this issue because there are so many factors that affect parity in high school athletics. I believe the primary factor that determines the success or failure of a high school athletic program or sport is the commitment of the community. Particularly in football, it takes a lot of money and resources to build a successful program. (The number and quality of coaches, as well as how much time they are allowed to commit to coaching, is directly related to how much the school is willing or able to pay. Facilities, equipment, and overall support of an athletic department are expensive.) Some private schools commit huge resources to athletics, and some don't. Some public schools commit huge resources to athletics, and some don't.

 

All of the recruiting rules, financial aide rules, zoning rules, and transfer rules have tried to address this disparity, but they cannot.

 

Recruiting: Blatant recruiting is probably not good for high school sports, and should be discouraged. But, everybody recruits. Players talk, parents talk, boosters talk, coaches and administrators get involve. Difficult to prove, and darned near impossible to enforce. T$$AA should investigate it more aggressively and pop the schools and coaches caught, but it is what it is.

 

Financial Aide: Most private schools (and the churches and alumni that support them) offer financial aide to some degree or another. To promote diversity and fulfill their mission, they have to do this and should be allowed to do it. Since athletes (by T$$AA rule) cannot receive financial aide in DI, a number of private schools have devised methods to circumvent the financial aide rules. Again, this is hard to prove, and it would take a forensic accounting analysis of the school, the church, and private family bank records to enforce the rule. That ain't gonna happen. The T$$AA has even flatly stated that it does not have the legal resources to take on the Catholic church. Perhaps all schools that offer financial aide, whether to athletes or not, should be in a separate division.

 

Zoning: School zoning is a local issue. It is impossible for the T$$AA to address all of the local variations in zoning rules. Most zoning rules are propagated to facilitate a school district's primary function (education) and to facilitate the allocation of limited resources. Do some communities use zoning rules to facilitate their athletic programs? Yes, but there realistically isn't anything the T$$AA can do to correct this disparity. It gets back to a community's support or lack of support for athletics. I don't believe the T$$AA should or could do anything to try to address disparities in zoning rules or school demographics (rural vs urban).

 

Transfers: All high school athletic associations have lengthy and convoluted transfer rules. I believe most of these rules are written as an indirect way of trying to cut down on recruiting and to stop overly zealous parents from doing stupid things. However, overly zealous parents will do stupid things, and will even lie and cheat if they have to. I suspect more student athletes have been hindered or hurt by transfer rules than have been helped, and I doubt these rules have affected recruiting very much. If a student is enrolled in a particular school by the local school board, he/she should be eligible to play sports.

 

This all just my two cents worth of what I think the T$$AA should do:

Try to police recruiting as much as possible.

Separate schools that offer financial aide (whether to athletes or not) and drop the multiplier.

Leave zoning issues to the local communities.

Do away with transfer rules. If student is enrolled, then he/she is eligible.

 

I think that is the most the T$$AA can do to provide a level playing field. It will then be up to each individual school, booster organization, alumni organization, church, city, county, and school district to determine how important athletics is to their overall mission.

 

The private schools with the financial resources to offer any financial aide (not just athletes) presumably have the financial resources to build athletic programs and compete against other schools with similar financial resources if they choose. Small privates without those financial resources can compete with the poor public schools. Public schools with huge community support (Maryville, Greeneville, Alcoa, Union City) will still have an advantage, but other public schools will be able to compete with them if they can generate sufficient local community support.

 

Very Good Post     :thumb:

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just read the article on home page.  some info fro the Tennis coach in AL.

http://www.timesdaily.com/sports/high_school/brooks/unfair-advantage-public-vs-private-debate-rages-on/article_9dce82a3-29bd-570e-b98b-2637cc79fc39.html

 

"

Deshler’s Jana Killen, who coaches girls basketball, tennis and volleyball, said she would be in favor of adopting a separate league for public and private schools in the playoffs.

Since 2000, private schools have obliterated public schools in girls tennis, winning 46 of a possible 48 state championships from Class 1A-5A. UMS-Wright has won seven state titles in a row in Class 4A, while a public school hasn’t won in that classification since 1996.

It doesn’t get easier in the boys division, as private schools have won 37 of 40 state championship in Class 1A-4A since 1996.

Deshler finished the 2015 season with in second place with what Killen called her best overall girls team in 15 years.

“We would’ve won tennis this year if UMS-Wright wasn’t in there,†Killen said.

She said the money metropolitan private schools have makes a difference since their training is superior, which creates an unbalanced field, even with the multiplier.

“I think that they have (access to) private trainers a whole lot more than public schools do,†Killen said. “A lot of these kids get private lessons and get instruction year-around, and in our case, a lot of kids can’t afford it or don’t have the time to do that. There’s not that many around here like there are in the bigger areas. If you let your kid go three times a week (to private lessons), they charge about $60 an hour and most kids can’t afford that around here."

so it not about recruiting or giving financial aid, its about private school kids having more money so they can afford private lessons. That is her reason for the split.  I have been in gyms all over Memphis and there are more public school students with "private" training than private school kids.  The students (and parents) that want to get better, find the way, time and money for the extra training.

 

split will happen, but dont use "my kids are poor and dont have time or money" to train to get better as an excuse.

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You're pretty smart for a troll, but your comments are based on your perceptions, not fact. The reason that this debate is as heated and long standing as it is, stems from the fact that there's at least two separate and completely different entities placed by the governing body (TSSAA) into the same division.

 

  Rural public schools must enroll any and every student (open or closed zone) within their "area" and those numbers determine what classification they are placed in. Lots of the public schools have a population density of 20,000 people or less within a 20 mile radius of the school, and even most open zone systems don't allow out of county students, further reducing the possibility of "out of area" athletes choosing to travel to play for a "better" team.

 

  DI private schools are primarily located in or very near large cities,and have absolutely no restrictions regarding student selection, including city limits, county lines, or distance traveled.

 

  In order to not point fingers, I'll keep this hypothetical.

 

  Metropolis University Prep is located in the suburbs of Metropolis in Tennessee County. The enrollment (with the multiplier added) is 620 which denotes that they should be AAA in football and AA in everything else EXCEPT, that there's this rule that states that the multiplier only advance one class, and pre multiplier their actual enrollment would be 1A. TSSAA's classification for MUP is set at 1A (AA football). Metropolis has a population of 500,000 people, and all Tennessee County has a population of over 750,000. Per TSSAA's rules any prospective student may be enrolled at MUP, even though Metropolis City School System and Tn. Co. are zoned. Just to spice up the pie...MUP had operated in DII for the previous two classification cycles, but chose to go back to DI at the end of the last cycle and stopped offering need based aid any longer. FYI, 120 of their students do not reside in Metropolis, or Tennessee County.

 

  Mayberry High has 460 students and is located in Mayberry Tn., an unincorporated community consisting of a post office, two gas stations, feed store, dollar store, grocery, barbecue joint, cafe', funeral parlor, and a florist. It's near the Alabama state line in Obscure County which is open zoned, and has a population of 20,000 (most in Bigg Towne, the county seat). Bigg Towne also has a high school, which is in AA with 1,000 students.

 

   TSSAA has them "on a level playing field", even though MUP  denies enrollment in order to maintain their 1A classification, and is able to choose students from a population of over 1,000,000 people. Their "brochure" boasts that 75% of their student body participates in athletics, and that men's basketball,football,baseball, and soccer, as well as women's basketball, softball, tennis and volleyball teams have won state championship's within the last decade. The "brochure" is handed out at sporting events within a 75 mile radius of the school, including junior league games, AAU events, showcase events, and even TSSAA sanctioned events involving other schools, in which MUP is not participating. MUP's coaches are involved with junior league events in all sports, but aren't head coaches (that's a no-no), because TSSAA doesn't allow recruiting, and that would be an advantage.

 

  Do you think that MUP and Mayberry High should compete in the same division? The names are fiction, but the content is a compilation of real advantages and situations that have come to light in the very recent past, and are all allowed via the current TSSAA rulebook. 

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I'm not against a total split of pubic and private. In fact, I support it. I was trying to throw a bone to the small privates that don't offer ANY financial aide and aren't trying to build an athletic dynasty.

 

I do believe that within the public school division, the T$$AA should ease the zoning and transfer rules to lessen some of the OZ advantage.

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You're pretty smart for a troll, but your comments are based on your perceptions, not fact. The reason that this debate is as heated and long standing as it is, stems from the fact that there's at least two separate and completely different entities placed by the governing body (TSSAA) into the same division.

 

  Rural public schools must enroll any and every student (open or closed zone) within their "area" and those numbers determine what classification they are placed in. Lots of the public schools have a population density of 20,000 people or less within a 20 mile radius of the school, and even most open zone systems don't allow out of county students, further reducing the possibility of "out of area" athletes choosing to travel to play for a "better" team.

 

  DI private schools are primarily located in or very near large cities,and have absolutely no restrictions regarding student selection, including city limits, county lines, or distance traveled.

 

  In order to not point fingers, I'll keep this hypothetical.

 

  Metropolis University Prep is located in the suburbs of Metropolis in Tennessee County. The enrollment (with the multiplier added) is 620 which denotes that they should be AAA in football and AA in everything else EXCEPT, that there's this rule that states that the multiplier only advance one class, and pre multiplier their actual enrollment would be 1A. TSSAA's classification for MUP is set at 1A (AA football). Metropolis has a population of 500,000 people, and all Tennessee County has a population of over 750,000. Per TSSAA's rules any prospective student may be enrolled at MUP, even though Metropolis City School System and Tn. Co. are zoned. Just to spice up the pie...MUP had operated in DII for the previous two classification cycles, but chose to go back to DI at the end of the last cycle and stopped offering need based aid any longer. FYI, 120 of their students do not reside in Metropolis, or Tennessee County.

 

  Mayberry High has 460 students and is located in Mayberry Tn., an unincorporated community consisting of a post office, two gas stations, feed store, dollar store, grocery, barbecue joint, cafe', funeral parlor, and a florist. It's near the Alabama state line in Obscure County which is open zoned, and has a population of 20,000 (most in Bigg Towne, the county seat). Bigg Towne also has a high school, which is in AA with 1,000 students.

 

   TSSAA has them "on a level playing field", even though MUP  denies enrollment in order to maintain their 1A classification, and is able to choose students from a population of over 1,000,000 people. Their "brochure" boasts that 75% of their student body participates in athletics, and that men's basketball,football,baseball, and soccer, as well as women's basketball, softball, tennis and volleyball teams have won state championship's within the last decade. The "brochure" is handed out at sporting events within a 75 mile radius of the school, including junior league games, AAU events, showcase events, and even TSSAA sanctioned events involving other schools, in which MUP is not participating. MUP's coaches are involved with junior league events in all sports, but aren't head coaches (that's a no-no), because TSSAA doesn't allow recruiting, and that would be an advantage.

 

  Do you think that MUP and Mayberry High should compete in the same division? The names are fiction, but the content is a compilation of real advantages and situations that have come to light in the very recent past, and are all allowed via the current TSSAA rulebook. 

The names may be fiction but you could put Dyer Co in the MUP spot and Gleason,Greenfield or Lake Co in the Mayberry spot.And we are also losing kids that live in our counties and driving 20 miles to the so called MUP.So hard enough as a small community itself but a double whammy when the TSSAA allows these kids to live in our county and drive 20 miles to their school and not have to sit out or at least move up a class if they want to continue to do this.If the publics and privates dont split,hope the TSSAA will do both.Make a player sit if he's not zoned for that school ,especially if another county is involved and move up a class.I think some of the public schools are as bad as the privates.Like Troll said above.Recruiting is happening at these bigger schools through parents ,AAU ,other students.Simple solution.If they want to go to another school,make them sit a year,even as incoming freshmen.

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The names may be fiction but you could put Dyer Co in the MUP spot and Gleason,Greenfield or Lake Co in the Mayberry spot.And we are also losing kids that live in our counties and driving 20 miles to the so called MUP.So hard enough as a small community itself but a double whammy when the TSSAA allows these kids to live in our county and drive 20 miles to their school and not have to sit out or at least move up a class if they want to continue to do this.If the publics and privates dont split,hope the TSSAA will do both.Make a player sit if he's not zoned for that school ,especially if another county is involved and move up a class.I think some of the public schools are as bad as the privates.Like Troll said above.Recruiting is happening at these bigger schools through parents ,AAU ,other students.Simple solution.If they want to go to another school,make them sit a year,even as incoming freshmen.

I'd almost say that the rural/urban split would solve more issues along these lines than the public/private, if the TSSAA would publish the entire proposal so they couldn't "slip in a loophole" (as usual). from what little that I've read about it, it would also address some of the large public schools near heavily populated areas ability to draw kids.  

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