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Why top 6?


newcoach215
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1 combined all-class double elimination individual state championship with 6 medalists, but no more than 3 dual championships...public big, public small, and private, so each team could compete for a title in their respective class and even playing field.

 

8 medalists is far too many for a state like Tennessee with lower numbers and 3 different divisions. Just not deep enough.

Great idea!!!

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The coaches (including me at the time) voted to have the split with small/large school individuals. Obviously, our intent was to attempt to grow the sport not to dimenish it. I see both sides and agree with both sides, but if this change helps grow the sport we've accomplished our goal. If not, it can be scrapped with very little, if any, damage.

Those that know me know that I'm about as "old school" as they come and believe's in the theory that there is only one true champion, but as a coach at a small school without any surrounding support, I recognized that an attempt at something different was needed to help increase interest and/or participation.

This may or may not increase interest and/or participation, but an attempt needed to be made and this was the best option. Not sure that it will work, but we had to try something.

Let's give it a shot for a couple of years and see if it's done what we had hoped it would. If not, changing back to the previous structure or tweaking the current one may be the answer. Either way, like I said, I don't believe this change is going to "damage" anything.

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Was there ever any discussion of increases the numbers of dual team classifications?  I cannot see the logic of expanding classifications in the individual tournament.

 

Was the intent to increase precipitation?  How is it possible to do so (to the greatest extent) through the individual tournament?  What was the discussion?   We are doubling the number of state placers, is that going to make some kid think, "hey, I am going out for wrestling now that there is an additional placement for 1-4?"  As a coach, do you feel like that is a great selling point to get that extra kid on the mat?

 

I agree with Cleveland above.  The increase participation ideally begins at kids and youth levels.  The Chattanooga schools and middle TN schools have shown that is the business model for successful wrestling.  But that does not guarantee the marginal kids stay on the mat throughout their high school careers.  The cream will always rise to the top for individual state champs.  Even for that, it is no lack of respect for that kid who wrestled on a state championship dual team.

 

I like the idea of increased participation.  Any coach will tell you, you have to have bodies on the mat.  To me it is a no brainer that to get increased participation the dual team format is most logical and would more likely increase participation in numbers than trying to do that by watering down the individual tournament. 

 

Lastly the dual team format, by increasing participation allows all cream to rise to the top.  You're only as good as your practice partner(s).  The wrestling room determines excellence.  The more better wrestlers that are in the room and on your practice mat exhibits itself in duals and in tournaments.

 

Have five dual team divisions. 

 

One individual state tournament.  Allow the cream in all dual divisions to rise to the top.

 

That's how to increase participation and showcase our sport.

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I can't disagree with your statement reftn. At the time that this was proposed, it was the best idea to attempt at gaining participation. Will it work, don't know but there was no other proposal put on the table that had even an inkling to helping grow the sport.

 

As I've said before, in a perfect world every HS program would have a feeder program, fill every weight class, and we'd only have 1 true state champion for each weight class. We may or may not disagree with the ideas on how to get to that point, but an effort of sorts has to be made. That's what was done by the coaches that voted to separate small/large individual state tournaments.

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I can't disagree with your statement reftn. At the time that this was proposed, it was the best idea to attempt at gaining participation. Will it work, don't know but there was no other proposal put on the table that had even an inkling to helping grow the sport.

 

As I've said before, in a perfect world every HS program would have a feeder program, fill every weight class, and we'd only have 1 true state champion for each weight class. We may or may not disagree with the ideas on how to get to that point, but an effort of sorts has to be made. That's what was done by the coaches that voted to separate small/large individual state tournaments.

The problem that I have with the idea is that you say that you don't know if it will work but there was no other proposal on the table to help grow the sport.  At that point why not just step back and take a deep breath and table the idea until you can give it some serious thought?  That idea of just voting for something is much like today's politicians that throw everything against the wall with the hope that something sticks.  The only way to grow the sport of wrestling and to sustain that growth for a long period of time is to build a solid foundation with the "grass roots" youth programs.  The YMCA method of passing out trophies to everyone and calling them a champion has been proven not to work over the long haul. 

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Here are the fruits of the small school division in the farmlands of Kentucky. The overall population is much smaller for our neighbors to the north, yet this union co school has buzzed through six state championships and been ranked #1 several times with All schools and you can see them at the GP West (brentwood) coming up in January.

Novemeber ranklings all divisons:

Team

1. Campbell County

2. St. Xavier

3. Union County

4. Woodford County

5. Oldham County

 

Updated Mid-Season all div. rankings:

1. Union Co
2. Campbell Co
3. Woodford Co
4. Trinity (Louisville)
5. St. Xavier
6. Moore
7. Christian Co
8. Johnson Central

 

As a matter of fact, look who makes the finals of one of the toughest tournaments in the nation...

http://www.flowrestling.org/coverage/251022-Walsh-Ironman/video/726616-132-f-Zahid-Valencia-SJB-vs-Brock-Ervin-UNCO

 

To our neighbors to the south we have seen all divisions push the cream to the top, like Jefferson, Camden and others including Pope leading to a top ten ranking for Archer over Brandon and many other perennial powerhouses...

 

Top 25 High School Team Rankings
Corey Haddad, Flo Insider

Week of December 30, 2013

1. Blair Academy, NJ
2. Oak Park and River Forest, IL
3. Clovis, CA
4. Apple Valley, MN
5. Graham, OH
6. Bergen Catholic, NJ
7. Wyoming Seminary, PA
8. Massillon Perry, OH
9. Franklin Regional, PA
10. Archer, GA
11. Montini Catholic, IL
12. Marist, IL
13. Edmond North, OK
14. Stillwater, OK
15. Nazareth, PA
16. Broken Arrow, OK
17. Brandon, FL
18. Lowell, MI
19. St. Edward, OH
20. Detroit Catholic Central, MI
21. Archbishop Moeller, OH
22. Bethlehem Catholic, PA
23. Brecksville-Broadview Heights, OH
24. Bound Brook, NJ
25. St. Peter’s Prep, NJ

Receiving Consideration (Alphabetical)
Bettendorf, IA
Claymont, OH
Clovis West, CA
Davison, MI
Don Bosco Prep, NJ
Greater Latrobe, PA
Marmion Academy, IL
McDonogh School, MD
Perry Meridian, IN
Pleasant Grove, UT
Poway, CA
Southeast Polk, IA
St. Johns, MI
Tuttle, OK
Waverly-Shell Rock, IA

 

I dont believe we will see Baylor or Cleveland dispute this ranking, any others?

Edited by Sommers
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Exponential growth does not necessarily depend on the small schools nor start at the high school level.

 

Comparisons with a successful and growing neighboring state:

 

TSSAA Member High Schools 392

TSSAA High Schools with Wrestling 178

TSSAA High Schools Participating in Wrestling 45%

TN AAU Wrestlers ???

TN AAU Coaches ???

TN AAU Clubs ???

TN AAU Officials ???

 

(If anyone has the numbers please post)

 

GHSA Member High Schools 445

GHSA High Schools with Wrestling 351

GHSA High Schools Participating in Wrestling 79%

GA USA Wrestlers 7,545

GA USA Coaches 1,125

GA USA Clubs 201

GA USA Officials 199

 

Georgia's numbers have doubled in the past decade and it began at the youth level. The GHSA had absolutely nothing to do with their growth. Its mostly due to innovative marketing plans to promote the sport in elementary and middle schools such as their 'Beat the Streets' program (could be very successful in Nashville and Memphis). That, along with incentives like discounted club fees and athlete fees, sponsored tournaments in undeveloped areas (rural), coach and officials training, and much more, all contributed to their growth.

 

Less than half of TSSAA member high schools participate in wrestling. If the youth numbers increase then the schools will be forced to pick up wrestling at the high school level. Its simple supply and demand. Once its there, more will likely join. Manipulating the current high school classifications in an attempt to increase participation is not as affective as promoting the feeder programs. There is no "get rich quick" scheme for increasing numbers and depth in wrestling, no vote or rule change that will produce the desired results. It will require time and commitment and a great combined effort from many across the state to promote the sport at the youth level by forming new clubs and increasing participation, not to mention aid and support from the AAU, TSSAA, and member schools.

 

Once the splits begin, it tends to get out of hand. Tennessee can learn from the success and mistakes of neighboring states in increasing participation and managing the growth. The multiple high school classifications for the dual championship can prevent current high school programs from being dropped due to lack of interest/participation until the growth of the feeder programs make an impact at the high school level. The individual state championship should not be "watered down" because that can cause adverse effects on other areas of growth in this state, in particular, competitiveness with other states at the national level. We cannot lower the bar to increase numbers, there must be a compromise to achieve both without sacrificing the other.

 

If more medals will produce more wrestlers then they should be handed out at the youth beginner tournaments and not the high school state championship.

 

....my two cents worth.

Edited by rlwest40
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Well said.  Even right here,,, if Every Metro was comparable to Chattanooga alone, we could compete with most states and even have B/C/D teams make noise as well. Imagine, tri-cities, Knoxville, Nashville, and Memphis reloading each year like Chatt-town?!?!?

 

It would take about 5-10 years to bring TN up to par with GA, at least... at least Per capita.

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Simmers - if you go to any major National youth tournament you will see a group of kids from Union County, Ky. They travel everywhere and they have 3 middle school kids that are some of the best in the country on the National circuit. Look at Dixie last weekend, they had a couple of Kids that wrestled for Team Nashville in the duals and they had at least 3 kids that made the finals.

Getting their youth kids out on the national circuit is how that tiny area is able to dominate in KY....in TN we don't have any group that is pushing our elite youth kids out on to the National circuit. TNAAU does a good job putting together the Team Tn teams that go to Kingsport for elementary duals and Iowa for Middle school duals but that's it. Yes, we have individual kids that go out on the youth national circuit in there own and if you look at our dominate wrestlers in state and go back to when middle school and youth, you will see that they all almost all were on the national circuit, Oliver, Landers, Eli King, Ryan Parker, Debien, etc.. In Tn, we have a handful of kids that start traveling early and in high school they can compete with the best in the country but once you move past them our drop off is steep because we have zero depth in this state.

 

Right now in Ga, their TeamGa organization will for every major national tournament charter a bus and then pay for part of cost for the kids. This year Ga sent 7 dual teams to VAC and TN sent 0.

What you are seeing from GA now at the High School level is just the tip of the iceberg. The current group of High Schoolers in Ga is the first group kids that have benefitted from what Ga started doing 8 years ago when they started promoting their kids to go National at the youth level and the current group of Middle School and 4-6 grade kids that are coming up now are twice as dominating as their current high school wrestlers. In TN we have to start doing the same if we want to raise the level of wrestling and overall depth in this state. And West is right if you want to significantly increase the participation and quality of high school wrestling in this state then everyone who cares about high school wrestling in this state needs to get involved and start promoting youth wrestling in this state...once you get parents hooked on wrestling at the youth and middle school level then they will demand that their high schools start making a commitment to wrestling which is what it will take to increase the number of high schools that have wrestling programs...

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The problem that I have with the idea is that you say that you don't know if it will work but there was no other proposal on the table to help grow the sport.  At that point why not just step back and take a deep breath and table the idea until you can give it some serious thought?  That idea of just voting for something is much like today's politicians that throw everything against the wall with the hope that something sticks.  The only way to grow the sport of wrestling and to sustain that growth for a long period of time is to build a solid foundation with the "grass roots" youth programs.  The YMCA method of passing out trophies to everyone and calling them a champion has been proven not to work over the long haul. 

cbg, there was a lot of thought and discussion about how we could grow the sport with the coaches for over 2 years prior to the final proposal being voted on. The final decision was to split small/large individuals. Again, the proposal was initiated by the HS coaches and voted on by the HS coaches at the time. After that, the proposal was provided to TSSAA for there approval.

Please don't make it sound like all the coaches that voted for this structure did so without serious thought or effort. A lot of time and discussion took place before it came to a final vote. 

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Durdon, yes, Yes, ...we have individual kids that go out on the youth national circuit in there own and if you look at our dominate wrestlers in state and go back to when middle school and youth, you will see that they all almost all were on the national circuit...

 

Certainly you can't leave out Michael Murphy who I know was encouraged to participate and exposed from a young age and gained a desire, but not pressured in any way. The area, being Chattanooga, and many he knew in the area at McCallie & elsewhere, his dad & others like Jonathan Kent & Tom Popp, obviously didn't hurt that choice to travel & train.

 

I suppose the Morgantown, Ky boys have similar reasons for where they are today.

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