mat73557

9 hours ago, cbg said:

I have never understood why anyone would be against having one state champion for individual sports unless they are selfish.  If you are the best swimmer at 50m, wrestler at 285lb, bowler, sprinter at 100m, etc… you are the best.  We have done nothing more than raise two generations of soft individuals by telling them they are not good enough to compete against people with more advantages.  The fact is that when these young athletes become adults they will have to compete against those same individuals for jobs.  Place everyone back together for one true individual state champion and don’t keep team scores.  

In my opinion, this kind of thinking is why wrestling is not growing amongst high school age boys and why wrestling was almost eliminated from the Olympics.   Boys participation numbers are slipping (or just barely staying steady) over the last few years.   How many NCAA programs have been lost in the last three decades? 

The whole idea of "Oh boy!!  Let's see who the best is!!" is not where we need to be these days.  If you want to see that, go to Super 32, VA Beach, The Grappler, Fargo, etc.  A lot of people from Tennessee take their kids to those tournaments.  (Especially those Greenville kids yall are talking about who are all doing so well).  

No one at Super 32 cares that you the best kid from Tennessee in your weight class.  All the kids at those tournaments are good.  I promise you the fact that you are a state champ from TN won't matter once your bout number comes up.

I have to ask, why trade what you want right now for what you really want the most?  I would love to see the D1 champs vs the D2 champs too, but I want wrestling to grow and get more popular more.

Beware.  Rant ahead. 

A few things.  The board of control.  Most of the members have no skin in the game for wrestling.  While several of them are from schools that technically have wrestling programs, Bradley and Warren County are really the only schools who are invested in wrestling year in and year out.  (no offense to Hamblen or CR or those who are trying)

Who are the "wrestling schools" in that list?

So when Mark Reeves or anyone else makes a suggestion regarding wrestling, they are almost always going to go a long with what his proposals are.  They dont know any better.  "A sixteen man bracket over three days?  Sure, sounds good to us."  Obviously, the board of control does not understand the sport of wrestling.

The 16 man bracket for AA is a load of crap too.  It does not hurt to have a 32 man bracket for the large schools.  For you purists out there who cry about only the best making it to state, the best kids are going to be there regardless.  Why shut out a bunch of kids who are on the fringe of being the best?  It doesnt hurt the tournament for them to be there and get put out on the first day. Now, a lot of schools will no longer have a state qualifier. 

"Oh tell them to work harder."  No.  That doesn't cut it.  If you really care about wrestling, you would want to give every kid the chance to learn and appreciate what wrestling offers... regardless if they have a mediocre coach, or are in a small town, or have administration that isnt supportive.  More kids need to "make it to state".

A couple of years ago, at the state tournament, there were a lot of schools who only had one kid,  Teams like Kingsbury, South Doyle, Karns, Hillsboro.  When is the next time you are gonna see one of those kids at state?  Its gonna be a cold day in heck.....  I'm sure that will be good for recruiting wrestlers at those schools.  "Our last state qualifier was 5 years ago."  "Yeah Coach, no thanks."

And from another angle, there are a lot more kids in AA schools than A schools, but the same number make it to state?

According to the TSSAA website, AA has 126,773 students.  Single A has only 60,735.  Double the numbers, but the same size bracket for the state tournament?  Was someone worried that the A schools were going to be mad?

Girls - - I want the girls, but I have been told that the boy's bracket might have been cut to stay in line with what is offered for girls.  I would think that if the girls had the numbers that the boys had, it would make sense to have a 32 man bracket for them as well.

Sub-State - No reason for it.  I have yet to hear what was broken about our old system.  

Bottom line, as I have said many times, the more kids wrestling in the championship event, the better off wrestling will be in Tennessee.  We need to see more schools sending their teams to the state tournament with police escorts.  We need to see more billboards congratulating wrestlers making it to state.  We need to see more kids going back home and telling their friends about how they finally made it to state.  We need more mons and dads posting their kids picture on Facebook.  We dont need less of any of those things.

It will be a good game.  I will be pulling for Oakland.

Oakland 45 - Riverdale 17

11 hours ago, Bump11 said:

very well said. couldn’t agree more. this will make it more competitive, and give “state qualifier”, more prestige. 

Why don't we just have the top eight go to state then?   Or maybe the top four? 

Stands to reason that would make it super competitive and even more prestigious.

5 hours ago, sx1234 said:

Show me where I said an 0-2 kid is probably poor?

You're first comment about my example was that it does not make sense to you.  Then you attempted to break it down, and just exemplified that you did not see how for the vast majority of programs in the state that negative aspects of time and cost out weigh the positive of a kid being called a "state qualifier".  Is that true for all states?  Most likely not, but it is for how the TSSAA has ran the individual state tournament since the split of A/AA and AAA (now A and AA).

 

Also, for the scenario I described earlier, how is him not being a state qualifier hurting the growth of the sport?  'Sectional Qualifier' or 'Sub-state' qualifier is an achievement in most states, and it will become one in Tennessee with this new addition.  In my opinion, and you probably disagree, it's a better goal stepping stone for those kids.  "Great job, you qualified for sectionals in your very first year, lets work hard this off-season and set a goal to qualify for state next year." 

All anyone has to do is read what you wrote.  Like I said, what you said about the kid who tells his coach he is quitting because his parents can't afford wrestling didn't make sense to me to use as an argument for a smaller state tournament.  (still doesn't)  And then you started off with the insults.

I have seen many high school kids quit wrestling because "I suck".  That's not what we should want to see.

Youth sports is becoming less attractive and less beneficial for the kids.  Sports aren't really fun anymore.  More and more kids are encouraged to specialize early and the pressure to win often is debilitating for them.  70% of kids quit sports already, so basically we are driving the kids away from sports who need sports the most.

There should be room in high school for a kid who starts wrestling as a freshman to see some measure of meaningful success IMO.  We might disagree on whether or not the title of "state qualifier" is meaningful or not, but if a kid does not see a path to success, why even bother participating in the first place?

I think to grow wrestling, you have to encourage and cater to the kids in the middle and those at the bottom the most.  For those talking about how they do it in GA, they have almost 100 state champs a year in GA.  That is 100 kids who get to hang a wrestling banner in their school or get their name on the wall.  THAT is good for wrestling, and that encourages kids to sign up and also encourages coaches to invest more time in youth programs and building something meaningful.

3 hours ago, sx1234 said:

Comical attempt to try and twist words to build rhetoric there. However, sadly ,the universe in under no obligation to make sense to you.  Reality exists whether you understand it or not.

A clear measure of a man's debating skill is how quickly he resorts to insults and ad hominin attacks.  

(Just in case ... ad hominin - an argument or reaction directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

I didn't try to twist any words at all.  You're the one who said that 0-2 kids are probably poor and their parents cant afford to travel to the state tournament.  Then the extra travel costs forces them to quit the team.  

Even though cbg and I don't agree, he at least has an understandable position (wanting a unified state tournament). 

 I stand by my original comment.

"Reducing the number of kids who go to state is not growing wrestling, wrestling interest, or wrestling popularity."

1 hour ago, sx1234 said:

I couldn't disagree with you guys more on it being a bad thing.

For coaches trying to grow their program, they convince a kid in the hallway that comes from nothing to come out and join the wrestling team.  Even though he's a first year kid, he's varsity because he's the only kid in his weight class.  Then he wrestles in the region tournament and places top 4 because he won 1 match or in some regions- he places top 4 just by making weight.

 

Then his parents have to spend money thy don't have to pay for 2 nights at a hotel in Franklin or Chattanooga  because their son qualified for the State Tournament.  He has no business being in the tournament, so he gets pinned quick twice and is eliminated Thursday night.  Yes some programs are fortunate enough to be in a position where they pay for the cost, but I would bet that there's less than 25 public schools in the state that don't have to rely on parents paying.

 

That same kid then tells his coach, who's only trying to build a program and grow the sport of wrestling, his parents said he can't wrestle next year because they can't afford it.

 

This sectional now will sort those scenarios out to where the parents and coaches won't have as many unnecessary costs in building their programs and will really help grow the sport in schools and communities that aren't known for wrestling.

Sorry, but this doesnt make any sense to me.  A coach who is trying to grow his program recruits a kid and the kid ends up being a state qualifier.  That is bad for his program because the kid isn't one of the top kids in the state, gets put out early, and his parents are probably poor?  Do I have that right?

Most coaches I know would love to be able to recruit more kids from their hallways.

"Come wrestle for me.  None of my kids will ever go to state, but man you're gonna have a lot of fun." 

I am sure that pitch is going to have the kids coming out in droves.

I think Blackman has only a handful of kids who have ever played varsity snaps before this season.  Maybe I'm wrong?

I still don't like it.   Reducing the number of kids who go to state is not growing wrestling, wrestling interest, or wrestling popularity.

DII now gets their own tournament with no change in bracket size.  Go figure. 

In years past, a DII kid at state could go 2-2 and still get a state medal.  Now, in AA, you will have a lot of coaches who will rarely ever be able to get a state qualifier.

None of this makes any sense to me.  Why change anything if DII gets their own tournament? 

Iron sharpening iron does not grow wrestling.  Otherwise, Chattanooga would have way more participants than they do.  Chattanooga has fantastic wrestlers, but their numbers are not really growing at all.  Growing wrestling MUST be a focus.  

As a percentage of the population, TN has far fewer schools with wrestling than GA or PA.  (PA and GA are actually on par with one another)

If we want to get better, more schools need to start wrestling programs.  Why work hard to start a program if your kids are never going to make it to state?

4 hours ago, cbg said:

What do people not understand about the fact that the TSSAA is only concerned about MONEY!  They would make the cut to 8 man brackets if the results would be more revenue for the TSSAA.  However, let's be honest and say that the only way a 32 man bracket should be used for the state wrestling tournament is if Tennessee only had one division.  There are simply not enough participation numbers to justify one 32 man bracket and two 8 man brackets.  The population base in the State of Tennessee is only 6.80 million (3 divisions)  where Pennsylvania has a population base of 12.83 and 2 (divisions).  Even in Ohio where they have 3 divisions the population base is 12.65 million.  Having everyone divided into 3 divisions does not make sense from a competitive point of view or financially.    On another note I am not convinced that the TSSAA was in a great financial situation pre COVID-19 and I feel confident that they are hurting now.   

I totally believe that the main reason for the change was financial.  I still think the concerns should be discussed with wrestling people/coaches and not voted on by a board in which 75% of its members do not have wrestling at their schools.  There was nothing in this decision that helps wrestling.

As for the 32 man bracket argument, you and I know that we disagree here.  I am a believer that if you grow the number of competitors, the quality of wrestling will go up.  Not many people can argue the fact that even the best kids from TN must travel elsewhere to get into the right kind of practice room that is tough to come by in Tennessee. 

Look at Georgia instead of Pennsylvania.  Why is Georgia doing so well?  They have SEVEN divisions.  All 32 man brackets.  98 State Champions this year in GA.  If we want to follow anyone's lead right now, it should be GA.   

Like I said before, less kids in the state tournament makes no sense at all.  

With this vote, the TSSAA also increased their revenue stream because now all our kids have to wrestle an extra tournament before state. So many things wrong with that.

The region pairings thing is not good for wrestling.  For example, Region 3 (Chattanooga) will be paired up with Region 4 (Murfreesboro area).  Large schools in our region who struggle to get state qualifiers today might as well forget about going to state.  At least rotate the pairings yearly so there can be some equity.

I wonder if the TSSAA consulted with wrestling coaches when they decided all this?  I heard this part of the meeting only took about 5 minutes.  So may members of the TSSAA Board of Control do not even have wrestling at their schools?  I don't feel like they represent wrestling at all.

And dont get me started on the fact that the state duals will stay at 8 teams.....

</endrant>

Wilson Central, Blackman and Beech have never charged a dime.

Proud of all the gains you have all made this season.  The program has come a long way!  Congrats on all the success!

2 hours ago, WrestlingGod said:

I agree we need to get rid of the three classes but our kids need to be able to travel outside of the state and compete at big tournaments. If we want to be able to keep up with some of these states we need to be able to compete with them during the season as well.

What does limiting the number of kids who compete at state do to grow wrestling in TN or close the gap with traditional wrestling locales like PA and NJ?

It looks like there is a lot of difference between PA and TN.  As I mentioned, it is apples and oranges. 

I still don't believe that having less kids at the state tournament will help TN catch up.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

Pennsylvania has about 9500 high school wrestlers at 475 schools.
Tennessee has about 3900 high school wrestlers at 188 schools.
PA has a rich tradition and passion for wrestling.... and tons of history.  TN has none of that.

With that logic, why don't we just have 6 man brackets?  Maybe a 4 man bracket would be about the right size?

Of course, that makes no sense.  In my opinion, I think we need more TN kids making it to state...not less.  Focusing on only the best kids may appeal to the wrestling purist, but it doesn't grow the number of participants.

TN needs more participants for sure.  

I wasnt shocked.  Atwood is a monster!

Overall wrestling in TN is way better today than it was 15-20 years ago.  The reason we are so much better is simply that we have more kids wrestling, and more kids competing for state medals.

When the big school small school split happened, everyone complained about things being watered down and for a time, they were right, but look what happened.  Now, you have schools like Greenville, Signal Mountain and Pigeon Forge with a ton of hammers who would beat up on any AAA kids.  

I know most of you purists will have a hard time admitting it, but face it......more divisions has helped overall.  I know you don't get to see the Ultimate Warrior match that so many drool about, but one division in TN will drive kids away from the sport.

In today's society where kids are so much more 'sheltered' than we were, you have to be able to have little Johnny have a shot at going to state.  (A form of instant gratification if you will)  If you want to see who is the very best in TN, follow them at the national tournaments they go to.  It's easy to do now days.  

I think we need more kids in the state tournament.  Not less.  And we need to find a way to have it in a comparable arena to what Georgia or Alabama does.  That is what kids want.  And this is for the kids after all.

I suggest that we start to push back because the rumors are that there is a permanent trimming in mind.  

I have been hearing this too.  What's the rationale?  

2 hours ago, Bump11 said:

there should be a sub state like duals. top 4 from each region and then combine regions i to 4 sub state tournaments where top 4 there qualify. could even do it in back to back days considering each would only have 8 kids per bracket. it wouldn’t take long. 

What we need to do is get on back to normal. 

Less kids at the state tournament does not help us grow wrestling.

Oakland beats Summit IMO. 

The best two teams from Region 1&2 combined will go to state duals.  

Same for regions 3&4, 5&6, 7&8,

Look at Region 3 & 4 for example. 

Region 3
District 5
Bearden High School (Knoxville, TN)
Farragut High School (Knoxville, TN)
Hardin Valley Academy (Knoxville, TN)
Knoxville Catholic High School (Knoxville, TN)
Stone Memorial High School (Crossville, TN)
District 6
Heritage High School (Maryville, TN)
Lenoir City High School (Lenoir City, TN)
Maryville High School (Maryville, TN)
William Blount High School (Maryville, TN)

Region 4
District 7
Cleveland High School (Cleveland, TN)
McMinn Co. High School (Athens, TN)
Rhea County High School (Evensville, TN)
Walker Valley High School (Cleveland, TN)
District 8
Bradley Central High School (Cleveland, TN)
East Hamilton High School (Ooltewah, TN)
Ooltewah High School (Ooltewah, TN)
Soddy-Daisy High School (Soddy-Daisy, TN)

If your team is from Knoxville, you are going to have to beat Bradley or Cleveland to make it to state duals this season.  Only two teams from the above list will make it in.  In this case, It's highly likely to be Bradley & Cleveland.

13 hours ago, BooWhoWiseMan said:

Not sure if they do or not but I am very surprised that they are allowing Wrestling.  I would think of all the sports that wrestling would be the most risky for kids.

Not at all.  Excerpt from a good article on this.

"After careful analysis, it's clear that wrestling is unique and can be conducted more safely than other popular sports. This counterintuitive conclusion may be surprising at first, but it's easy to understand. Although wrestling features extensive physical contact, other critical considerations significantly reduce risk.

This conclusion is reached by objectively assessing risk in two major ways. First, what is the physical proximity of teammates and opponents during competition? How well can social distancing be maintained?

Second, how many persons would face exposure from an asymptomatic athlete? In other words, what is the risk of an outbreak involving large numbers of people?

It's the second risk factor that is extremely favorable for wrestling since it's the only individual sport on the list. In a dual meet, for example, a wrestler comes in contact with just one person. Even if he/she warms up with a teammate (which isn't even essential), the potential spread from an asymptomatic person is extremely limited. This is in stark contrast to the other sports.

In addition, since public health officials continue to advocate enhanced cleaning and handwashing, it seems evident the virus can be transmitted by touching balls, equipment, or playing surfaces. Once again, wresting is unique because there are no balls or equipment. Even mats can be cleaned after each match (try doing that on artificial turf!)."
 

5 hours ago, TomLHS said:

This will be a great game with contrasting styles. No one better sleep on Brentwood, they are legit. I see the outcome being decided by 7 points or less.

Ridiculous.   Oakland will kill Brentwood again....