Different Region, Different Call

[ComPassion]

 

1st: Long time reader, first time poster. :justwrestle: Always wanted to say that.

 

2nd: I agree 100%

 

3rd: Isn't this exactly opposite to the post downing "regressive" officials that call by the rules stiffling the "creativity" of players with poor fundamentals?

825748436[/snapback]

Welcome oldsetter,

Yes, that was me that pushes for calling the rules as they are written RATHER THAN having officials try to take on the role of coach. I see the reasoning behind "the system" wanting refs to be technique enforcers ..but in practice it just doesn't work and brings in more bad than good. I too want the officials to call the lifts and doubles, I just want them to ONLY call the lifts that are lifts and the doubles that are doubles and NOT confuse things by calling a poorly executed or athletic or creative attempt illegal just because it's not how their PE teacher showed it 30 yrs ago.

 

So, yes, absolutely, I do not think refs should enforce technique ..they should enforce the rules ..which are liberal and encourage PLAY, not officiating. The game is meant for kids to play it, not for adults to try to show how often they can keep kids from playing it.

 

And, for the record old setter, yes, very many officials are too loose in TN and do the kids who want to play at higher levels a disservice in that way ..it's just the other end of the spectrum that seems indefensible to me. Welcome again.

[Cowboys Up]

I get annoyed at officials that "over-call" on technique, too, ComPassion. However, I believe there are many, many more officials that are "non-callers" than the other end of the spectrum. Ideally, there is a place in the middle of that spectrum. There are a few refs that I would put in that category.

 

I know you believe in "progressive" :justwrestle: volleyball. In other words, having a ref that is up on current rules and not stuck in the past with outdated rules. I agree totally, however, the officiating at Red Bank was "regressive" and did nothing to better the game of volleyball. They didn't hold to the rules of the game. It didn't make for good volleyball.

 

I think you and I agree that we want officials statewide to be trained yearly on any changes to the rules and how to enforce those rules.

[clifford20]

I get annoyed at officials that "over-call" on technique, too, ComPassion.  However, I believe there are many, many more officials that are "non-callers" than the other end of the spectrum.  Ideally, there is a place in the middle of that spectrum.  There are a few refs that I would put in that category. 

 

I know you believe in "progressive"   volleyball.  In other words, having a ref that is up on current rules and not stuck in the past with outdated rules.  I agree totally, however, the officiating at Red Bank was "regressive" and did nothing to better the game of volleyball.  They didn't hold to the rules of the game.  It didn't make for good volleyball.

 

I think you and I agree that we want officials statewide to be trained yearly on any changes to the rules and how to enforce those rules.

825748484[/snapback]

 

 

here is another good one. We can get away with a back row attach against 75% of all ref's state wide. There are only a handfull of refs that will call it. So we use it to our advantage, It is so easy. I have seen teams do it, the other coach catches it, they tell the ref and they look like they have just been told that the world was ending, cause they have no idea what just happened.

[Cowboys Up]

here is another good one.  We can get away with a back row attach against 75% of all ref's state wide.  There are only a handfull of refs that will call it.  So we use it to our advantage,  It is so easy.  I have seen teams do it, the other coach catches it, they tell the ref and they look like they have just been told that the world was ending, cause they have no idea what just happened.

825748690[/snapback]

Clifford20, are you saying that your team will try to get away with illegal back row attacks just because a ref won't see it?

[TheGreatLineJudge]

here is another good one.  We can get away with a back row attach against 75% of all ref's state wide.  There are only a handfull of refs that will call it.  So we use it to our advantage,  It is so easy.  I have seen teams do it, the other coach catches it, they tell the ref and they look like they have just been told that the world was ending, cause they have no idea what just happened.

825748690[/snapback]

 

I've seen this happen- not with any specific team. A coach will lobby for a seemingly common call, and the referee has the "deer in the headlights" look of bewilderment. I want to laugh, but then I remember how truly embarassing it is.

[play4keeps]

I've seen this happen- not with any specific team. A coach will lobby for a seemingly common call, and the referee has the "deer in the headlights" look of bewilderment. I want to laugh, but then I remember how truly embarassing it is.

825748985[/snapback]

 

Off topic (sort of) but this reminds me of the year my daughter was a junior and at 5 foot even could not jump high enough (even when she tried) to "break the plane" of the net but was called twice in a single match for a back row attack because she came off her feet when she was setting (which at her height was a pretty common sight).

 

<sigh> just call'em like ya see'm my daddy always said.

[VballDaddy78]

I have to agree with Cowboys Up on the offciaiting at RB. There was one particular ref that called our first Pool game and also called the last match Fri., where I was sitting behind Cowboys. My rule of thumb (and this goes for any sport inolving refs or umpires) has always been as long as they are consistent, it's OK. But Friday night, it was beyond "consistency". I have never seen a VB ref go through 6 games and not call any double hits and called only 1 lift (which wasn't even a lift but was called so because the setter pushed it over the net with one hand). It does hurt the players to not call anything and there were violations on both sides. So I've had to rethink my position on consistency.

I think the calls I hate most are the "supposed" violations on first hits (serve receive, digs). Much like ComPassion talks, the rules have changed, especially somewhat more recently but some don't seem to care.

[TheGreatLineJudge]

On backrow attacks.  In Chatt there a couple of officials who handle them expedisciously.  They save time by pretending that the rule is not in the book, they speed up the game by not calling it, when a coach stands to question why they won't call it they demand that the coach sit down immediately, THEN turn away and QUICK SERVE THEIR TEAM!  We've turned them in ..but, their love of power is so strong, they keep doing things like this when working matches for the coaches who know more than they do about the rules.

 

They know they refuse to learn this rule, they know some of the coaches do know the rule, and yet they still act superior about it, that's what is so laughable about their little power plays.  As if people can't see thru it.

825749189[/snapback]

 

Pathetic. Drop backrow attack from the rulebook and you may as well be able to not call any ballhandling, net fouls, unsportsman like stuff, etc. While we're at it, let's put on pads and make volleyball a full contact sport.

 

Rules are there for a REASON!! That's a sore example of how different things are across the state. I grin when I think about a coach (who will remain unnamed) who said, in reference to an incorrect overlap (that was replayed) call I made, "You seem to be looking for it." Of course I'm looking for it. And backrow attacks and blocks. And double contacts. And net fouls. And the ball rolling off the girls' arms. And jewelry (unnecessary delay). Even the elastic things girls put in their hair. If it's around the neck, it's considered jewelry.

 

I look for everything. If it's in the rulebook, you would be well-served to know that it's in there! If you want to test an official, ask them what the ruling is when a non-serving player's foot is on the boundary line- but not on the outside floor- during the serve. And then- how bout if an inch of the shoe is outside the boundary line. Answers you get may suprise you!

[oldsetter]

And, for the record old setter, yes, very many officials are too loose in TN and do the kids who want to play at higher levels a disservice in that way ..it's just the other end of the spectrum that seems indefensible to me.  Welcome again.

825748480[/snapback]

 

Thanks to all for the welcome. I love rules debates. I saw the one earlier on open hand serve reception and that is why I joined up. I hope to have several.

 

I agree fully that Refs should not be calling on technique or anything that is "not illegal". However, I do not agree with the concept that the rules are liberal and incurage play. The rules are straight forward and say things like - no prolong contact, no multiple contacts except on first team pass. etc, etc

 

I think we all agree a double is a double, a lift a lift and all should be called. The big diff is on "first ball over". The new rule was put in effect based on players digging hard hit spikes. It was felt that multiple contacts in this event could be forgiven to make play more even between offence and defence. And that is what the rule says - multiple "legal" contatacts. If you open hand receive a ball and it spins in your hands or you have prolonged contact it is illegal. If you have clean multiple contacts - play on. I guess it is still going to be a judgement call like every other contact.

 

I had a friend that complained about getting speeding tickets. I asked if he was speeding and he said yes. He did not appreciate the fact that I told him if he drove the speed limit his odds of getting a ticket would almost be nill.

[TheGreatLineJudge]

Thanks to all for the welcome.  I love rules debates.  I saw the one earlier on open hand serve reception and that is why I joined up.  I hope to have several.

 

I agree fully that Refs should not be calling on technique or anything that is "not illegal".  However, I do not agree with the concept that the rules are  liberal and incurage play.  The rules are straight forward and say things like - no prolong contact, no multiple contacts except on first team pass. etc, etc

 

I think we all agree a double is a double, a lift a lift and all should be called.  The big diff is on "first ball over".  The new rule was put in effect based on players digging hard hit spikes.  It was felt that multiple contacts in this event could be forgiven to make play more even between offence and defence.  And that is what the rule says - multiple "legal" contatacts.  If you open hand receive a ball and it spins in your hands or you have prolonged contact it is illegal.  If you have clean multiple contacts - play on.  I guess it is still going to be a judgement call like every other contact.

 

I had a friend that complained about getting speeding tickets.  I asked if he was speeding and he said yes.  He did not appreciate the fact that I told him if he drove the speed limit his odds of getting a ticket would almost be nill. 

825749663[/snapback]

 

 

OS, you're gonna fit right in. Welcome to the forum. I look forward to many interesting debates on the rules with you.

 

To clarify again on first-ball-over contact, multiple contacts are ok, PROVIDED it is one attempt to play the ball. Overhead set on first ball and there is a bang-bang left hand to right hand contact is ok. If the ball bounces off her arm and she then swings to hit it over, you would have an illegal two contacts. As always, prolonged contact is never legal.

 

What part of the state are you from?

[BigReno]

At last year's Region 1 tournament, the District 2-AAA officials didn't call much of anything against any team. They missed a couple of obvious back row attack calls, which caused several fans from the other team to yell loudly and the officials had the oddest look on their faces. This really affected the District 1 teams who were used to playing by tighter calls, and benefited the District 2 teams. The only explanation that I could come up with was that the teams were so much less talented that if all the calls were made that should have been made, the district 2 teams would have been lucky to score.

 

 

So yes, I think officials calling differently in different regions is a big problem.

[KYdigsTN]

CP,

 

You made your point a long time ago. If you want to get personal, save it. Play nice.

 

Digs-

 

If you've watched it 10x on slow motion, then I can't argue. I'd love to see it (and the whole match, really) if the chance ever presented itself. There is nothing like learning from your own mistakes. The fact that you, of ALL people, have got one on me makes me laugh.

825750061[/snapback]

 

Yes I even slowed it down. Perhaps the fact she went so low to get it made it look like prolonged contact. No big deal though. Had we won that match we would have been in an entirely different pool on saturday and who knows how those matches would have turned out. Of course in my brain though I think we "perhaps" should be 20-1 rather than 19-2 right now, but I'll get over it.

 

The lady official for the Lebanon match made a couple errors too, but she was so attractive I didn't even care. It was difficult concentrating on the lines.

Edited September 14, 2005 by KYdigsTN