A levev playing field for all teams.

[ksgovols]

I'd like to add that 'equal playing time' and 'everyone's a winner' crap is typically what keeps the little guys playing youth sports. 12yroldchamps is an adult. What does that tell you. Tee Ball phenoms and 4th grade scoring wizards are just that. The most successful youth coach is the one who's players come back and play the next year. Reasons why they don't come back? Playing time and emphasis on winning from the time they can drag a bat to the plate or hit the rim with a basketball. Other reasons? Nimrod coaches that let their 12 year old pitcher throw 120 pitches in a game and then throw him in the finals 2 days later. Parents that shop their kid every year to the best travel team they can get him on because it's a feather in Dad's cap.

 

There are legitimate reasons to put your child in a private school. Not saying there isn't. There are public schools that 'attract' premier athletes and get kids to move into their zone. There are public schools with open zones that allow 'attracted' players to participate in their programs. There are private schools who de-emphasize athletics or don't 'attract' as well as their brethren that get hit with the same multiplier. There's not a level playing field no matter how you slice it. A merit system is the only way to go.

[12yr.oldchamps]

I'd like to add that 'equal playing time' and 'everyone's a winner' crap is typically what keeps the little guys playing youth sports. 12yroldchamps is an adult. What does that tell you. Tee Ball phenoms and 4th grade scoring wizards are just that. The most successful youth coach is the one who's players come back and play the next year. Reasons why they don't come back? Playing time and emphasis on winning from the time they can drag a bat to the plate or hit the rim with a basketball. Other reasons? Nimrod coaches that let their 12 year old pitcher throw 120 pitches in a game and then throw him in the finals 2 days later. Parents that shop their kid every year to the best travel team they can get him on because it's a feather in Dad's cap.

 

Other reasons why they don't come back? Irrational parents who expect their child, who puts forth little or no effort, misses practice all the time, and wonders why he doesn't get to play as much as some others do. The parent then gets mad and pulls kid from the team.

 

That scenario happens in every league across this country all the time.

 

You have to find middle ground between the "everyone's a winner league" and the "psycho coaches" who thinks he has a future big leaguer at 12.

[JaxMan]

Other reasons why they don't come back? Irrational parents who expect their child, who puts forth little or no effort, misses practice all the time, and wonders why he doesn't get to play as much as some others do. The parent then gets mad and pulls kid from the team.

 

That scenario happens in every league across this country all the time.

You have to find middle ground between the "everyone's a winner league" and the "psycho coaches" who thinks he has a future big leaguer at 12.

 

 

 

isn't it amazing how every parent tells you their kid is a shortstop...I never had a single parent tell me my kid is a right fielder...

[fiftyfifty]

I was making a play on the term 'open zoned'. Traditionally it means that the school can take anyone from the county that the school is in (sometimes from nearby counties) even if that person is not in the zone that the school pulls from. As long as the school has space and the student can provide transportation they can switch...that is the sense that 'open zoned' is used in for Maryville, the Marion County schools, and others.

 

But the truth is that any metro system is 'open zoned' because of NCLB. If your school doesn't offer a class that you want to take but the great Football school across town just happens to offer it, and if you can find transportation and they have room, you can go...period. Add to that the Magnet schools (which have no zones to start with...) and the fact that many metro systems will let anyone go to any school if they are in the minority and the school isn't full, and you have a bunch of tuition free schools that can get any athletes they want if that is what they want to do. Toss in the fact that it is perfectly legal for a public school coach to go to public middle school games and talk to all the athletes...even schedule meetings at the middle schools in question to talk about their sport, and you begin to see that the arguments that privates can easily get athletes because of their open zone are baseless because publics can get them just as easily with no penalties. Add to that the fact that the rules about undue influence and sitting out a year are NOT aimed at the public schools at all because the way the rules are written there is virtually no way a public school program can violate them, and you begin to see how truly open most public schools in metro areas are.

 

A private school coach, however, who went to a middle school game to watch a nephew or something, has techincally violated the undue influence rules if a parent asks him "what do you think of my kid" and he replies "he's a great athlete, I wish I had him". What a crock... /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

 

And, of course, the private school has a huge advantage over the open zoned publics in that some of the private's students probably come from 25 miles away instead of 10...the fact that anyone who attends the private pays 7k a year in tuition doesn't figure into the equation somehow...like 100% of the population is able and willing to pay 7k for their kid to go to school...lol /dry.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="

 

Just remember, 'level playing fields' are about as common as snipes, or perfect machines, or the supermodel who loves kids, cooks, and talks Football with the guys. In reality the call for equality on the athletic field is a smoke screen for the call to punish the privates because they are different and a few are good. If it wasn't, the call would have been made to the great public programs too.

 

 

In my opinion, Bald Coach hit the nail on the head when he stated that the call for equality on the athletic field was nothing but a smoke screen to punish the private schools. The public schools that are so similiar to privates in that they are open-zoned, charge tuition etc, probably weren't even mentioned before this DIV II was created. So if the difference between MBA and lets say Maryville is so small athletically, then what really prompted the split. It sure as heck wasn't an attempt to create a level playing field. If the privates all played in their own league with no publics, does anyone think the publics would have a level playing field, I sure don't. In order to have a level playing field, we would have to have a whole bunch of folks that have a like philosophy of what is fair. I don't think that is ever going to happen. IMP, this will be a source of discussion fifty years from now when some of us by then can really see what is fair and equal. Of course, we won't still be on this Earth. Lastly, I really hope and pray that most kids that play sports are spared this unfairness perception by so many people, right or wrong, so that they can at least enjoy their time playing their particular sports and have some good memories to carry with them. Most people never won anything in sports, but loved every minute of it, teammates, friends, trying to achieve a common goal. I hope that is still the case. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

[fiftyfifty]

You're right, there's nothing wrong with attending a public school, and there's nothing wrong with attending a private school. But contrary to many thoughts on this board, most parents send their children to a private school for reasons other than athletics. My son is going to play soccer where ever he's in school, regardless of whether its a public or private.

 

Our family was a public school family for 13 years. Then due to circumstance associated with a job transfer, we made the decision, academically, to place our youngest in a private for his last 3 years. The soccer team of the public school we're zoned for has a better record than the private school's soccer team. Kids are kids where ever they are. Its the parents who screw things up.

 

You are so correct. I would say that 99% of parents that send their children to private schools do so for much more important reasons than athletics. This is not acknowledged by those in opposition to private schools. Many people want to restrict conversation about privates to just athletics, this is impossible to almost all private school parents. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

[alltherage]

The whole 'we don't allow as many tuition kids in now as we used to' argument is pretty weak. Building a tradition that attracts the players to the system by out of zone players is how you got where you are. Try building a tradition with the kids in your zone.

 

I agree with Baldcoach that a merit system is the only way to go. One division divided into 5 classifications based on performance over the past 4 years. Equitable to everybody.

 

It is an idea, but one that causes continuous turmoil rather than finding solutions. Shools and divisions would be bounced every four years.

There seems to be two basic issues. 1)tuition based schools, and 2)Open zone schools. Both give advantages are are viable options. Tuition based schools in my opinion should all play in DivII, they can break it up however they want, form a board of private school representatives and allow them to divide themselves up.

Open school zones are based on the idea of schools bettering themselves on many different levels. Sports is just one aspect that gets one heck of a boost from this. Clearly it is time for the TSSAA to consider a multiplier for school systems implementing this option.

Its really not about one or two schools, its about atheletes at all schools having competitive opportunities.

[Baldcoach]

It is an idea, but one that causes continuous turmoil rather than finding solutions. Shools and divisions would be bounced every four years.

There seems to be two basic issues. 1)tuition based schools, and 2)Open zone schools. Both give advantages are are viable options. Tuition based schools in my opinion should all play in DivII, they can break it up however they want, form a board of private school representatives and allow them to divide themselves up.

Open school zones are based on the idea of schools bettering themselves on many different levels. Sports is just one aspect that gets one heck of a boost from this. Clearly it is time for the TSSAA to consider a multiplier for school systems implementing this option.

Its really not about one or two schools, its about atheletes at all schools having competitive opportunities.

 

 

Rage,

 

All metro schools are open zoned whether they say so or not. Thus, the vast majority of high school kids in the state attend open zoned schools. The minority are those who attend schools that are not open zoned. Perhaps they should form their own division...after all, it seems they are the ones who are complaining all the time about everyone else. There could be DI which would be all metro, open zoned, and privates, and DII which would be all the non-open zoned schools. That way the schools with similar disadvantages would all be lumped together and out of everyone else's hair so we can get on with playing ball.

 

p.s. Tuition based schools are not open zoned. While their zones are open geographically, they are tightly closed economically. Thus, open zoned publics (the majority) actually draw from a much larger pool than any private.

[alltherage]

Rage,

 

All metro schools are open zoned whether they say so or not.

 

 

We can lump your quote with all the ones that state, "All privates recruit, whether they say so or not."

 

I really do hate it that some of the kids of the state are "in your hair", I assumed you were bald.

[Baldcoach]

We can lump your quote with all the ones that state, "All privates recruit, whether they say so or not."

 

I really do hate it that some of the kids of the state are "in your hair", I assumed you were bald.

 

 

Except my quote is accurate...all metro schools are in effect open zoned. It isn't an assertion of dishonesty, nor is it an assumption of wrongdoing, it is simply the way the system is structured. Any metro school can take any student in the system if they have room, or if that student is a minority, or if the school offers any class that the previous school did not.

 

Surely you see the difference in stating a fact (even if it pulls the rug out from under one of your assumptions about the public/private debate) and making an unsupported insinuation?

 

The kids aren't in anyone's hair...I'm thinking the kids wouldn't care a bit about who played whom if the grown ups would just leave them alone and let them all play like they always have. It's the grown ups behaving like kids that are the problem...they want to take their ball and go home because someone might beat them.

[catsbackr]

isn't it amazing how every parent tells you their kid is a shortstop...I never had a single parent tell me my kid is a right fielder...

 

This is somewhat a naive view on your part.

 

Most college teams are completely composed of pitchers, catchers and shortstops. The pitchers pitch, the catchers catch and play 1st or 3rd and the entire rest of the team is made up of former shortstops that have learned to play other positions. That's just the way it is.

[JaxMan]

It is an idea, but one that causes continuous turmoil rather than finding solutions. Shools and divisions would be bounced every four years.

There seems to be two basic issues. 1)tuition based schools, and 2)Open zone schools. Both give advantages are are viable options. Tuition based schools in my opinion should all play in DivII, they can break it up however they want, form a board of private school representatives and allow them to divide themselves up.

Open school zones are based on the idea of schools bettering themselves on many different levels. Sports is just one aspect that gets one heck of a boost from this. Clearly it is time for the TSSAA to consider a multiplier for school systems implementing this option.

Its really not about one or two schools, its about atheletes at all schools having competitive opportunities.

 

 

the definition you use for open zone publics...schools who just want to better themselves on all levels is the definition of the private schools...they do not exist to play sports...they want to offer an enviroment of improvement on all levels...so if open zones stay so should non aid privates...if non aid privates move, so should open zone publics

[JaxMan]

This is somewhat a naive view on your part.

 

Most college teams are completely composed of pitchers, catchers and shortstops. The pitchers pitch, the catchers catch and play 1st or 3rd and the entire rest of the team is made up of former shortstops that have learned to play other positions. That's just the way it is.

 

 

I understand that...you missed my point...every parent thinks there kid is a shortstop...even if he can't throw or catch they all think him a star...your right most people who make it to higher levels were key players like shortstops and pitchers at younger ages...but trust me...not every kid who shows up is a pitcher or shortstop regardless of what his mom thinks