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Red Cards


rhett
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The fewer reds may be related to the severity of the new TSSAA penalty for 2008...Ejection and then a two game suspension from play. Way to penal for HS play. A few suspect calls late in the season may well impact district and regional play.

Referees have an obligation to protect players but don't forget, a RED now could destroy some teams down the stretch.

 

I don't think Refs are to worried about how many games a player now has to sit out before they show a red. If a Ref deems the offense needs a red than they will show red. I assure you that a good ref does not show up to ref wanting to throw reds.

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Interesting points.....I wasn't at these games that you were talking about where the keeper was involved in a collision, but I have been playing soccer since I could walk, and now I ref and play, and I find it extremely rare that an attacker actually goes after a keeper and doesn't play the ball at all. When a goal is so close that you can taste it, most of the time the attacker will try to score instead of trying to injure the keeper. Maybe one of the two is injured in the process, and I agree that is very unfortunate, but 99% of the time I don't believe it's on purpose.

 

As far as the increased penalty for a red.....I do think that the penalty needed to be stiffened, because before there were players that were just plain reckless and were committing obvious red card offenses blatantly on purpose, and only having to sit the rest of the game that was probably already 5-0 anyways. But it is a very valid point that now a bad call by a referee during the last regular season game could cost a senior a senior night as well as the first round district playoff game. And depending on who that player is, it could end up costing his whole team a regional appearance. So while I do agree something needed to be done......I would like to see some kind of appeals process. Maybe there already is one that I don't know about??? Anyone know about anything like that?? Maybe if someone caught it on videotape (which is highly likely nowadays where almost every high school sporting event is taped by somebody), they could appeal it, or something along those lines. Because it would be awful to make a kid sit the most important game of the season because of a crap call by a ref in the game before.

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Well, all I have is that no player or coach should even put themselves in the position to get disqualifed from the match. There are no excuses for it, no i was just into the game or heat of the moment or competition drives it out of me. A true competitor and athlete will know what they can and cannot do in a game. All players know they cannot cuss in a match, no matter who it's directed at. No where in the rules does it state that since it was directed at a teammate its not punishable. IN HFHS it is dealt with no matter what. USSF is a different story, understand what you are playing. Some referees are strict and some just stay out of the way until it is necessary for them to blow their whistle. Players are old enough to know the line. Alot of it falls back on the coach and what he will or will not discipline.

Say you have a player who gets a yellow for dissent, well you know the coach didnt care if the kid is already back at the line to sub back in as soon as he goes out. What player gets the right to be disrespectful to an adult?

Most all contact in soccer is part of the game. There are fouls that should be called but only if it puts the team at a disadvantage. But bumps and shoulders and hard tackles are part of the game.

But off the soap box, You put the referee in a corner by your actions just think which road he will probably take?

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blankguy, as far as keeping your mouth shut and playing the game, I agree with you. I don't think the soccer field is the place for foul language, whether it's aimed at an opponent, referee, teammate, coach, or fan.

 

As far as being disrespectful to an adult.....it shouldn't matter what age the person is. Treat people with respect, no matter how old you are and no matter how old they are.

 

As far as the coach not caring whether or not his player picked up a yellow.....I disagree there. I think in some cases, the punishment does not have to be "well you're going to sit on the bench for the rest of the game". Just because the coach puts the player right back in the game does not mean he doesn't care, or condones what the player has done. There are other ways of punishing individual players without hurting the whole team. Now if there are team rules, and a system of consequences and rewards that are established well in advanced, I think that's a different story. Follow the rules.

 

I do agree with a lot of what you're saying, BUT.....I think it's completely different when the card is shown for something other than dissent, or language. When a card is shown for just playing hard, and you happen to foul somebody in the process.....let's just say that if I were a coach, I would love to have a team full of players who played so hard they were close to the line.

 

And along the lines of respect.....I am referee myself, and I think it is absolutely disgusting the lack of respect that many referees show to the players. As far as I'm concerned, the players are MUCH more courteous to the refs than the refs are to the players. I've seen refs yell at players for no reason, I've seen players be completely ignored by the refs when they are asking a question; I've seen a lot. What I've found is this: respect the players, and 99% of the time they will respect you. I try to always say "yes sir/no sir" when asked questions on the field by players, always respond to queries from players as fast as I can considering the flow of play at the time, try to give warnings when they are in order instead of just throwing a card without one (when a warning is in order). I even apologize as soon as I get the chance if I realize that I've made a bad call. And let me tell you, having been a player and a referee.....that is rare. You just don't see many refs apologizing for ANYTHING:) And I've found it goes a long way in having the players and coaches respect you, and it keeps tempers down and helps the game flow much more smoothly in general. In my opinion, if you walk on the field as a ref and expect the players, coaches, and fans to all bow down.....HAHA!:) Respect them, and you won't have too many problems. The problems start when a ref has his head up his butt and his finger in his nose, and thinks he cannot possibly be wrong about anything.

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defender25 - That is a great post. Is there any way we can get you to work a few of our games? Pretty much all the refs that have worked our games this year have not been very courteous to our players.

 

From my point of view, the no. of cards as a whole seemed to be much less this year (but the physical style of play was probably higher in several of our games). The limited no. of yellows even seemed to be for the minor offenses (player yelled "OUCH" when he kicked at a ball, missed and fell, multiple fouls going to a yellow for "aggressive play", etc.). In one instance, we had a player taken out a good two steps after passing a ball resulting in a broken collarbone (in my opinion the #1 purpose of the official is to protect the players) and there wasn't even a card issued. The intent of the foul was obviously to injure and the player committing the foul was well known for taking cheap shots.

 

I think the TSSAA definitely went too far in their rule change (2 game suspension for red). I think the first offense should have remained disqualification and a 1 game suspension. If a change was needed, I think there should be a change to allow a feedback and evaluation process for the officials (we all know if an AD files a complaint to the state or requests that an official not officiate certain school's games, they will be on a "list - the process should be anonymous with action levels for warnings, remedial training, and/or suspension/revocation of certification). I think a lot of the perceived red card problem is more related to a lack of respect toward the players on the officials part (see defender25 post) and no clear expectation on official performance on the TSSAA's part. Officials are not held accountable at any level. All the TSSAA wants to do is analyze the numbers without assessing the cause. When you have officials who physically can't get in position to make calls (making offside calls from 15-25 yards behind the play), it's tough to deal with.

 

I think the TSSAA should have left the player penalties alone and held the coaches/schools more accountable. It is human nature to adapt to the norm and if coaches let stuff continue to go on and not deal with it, the players will adapt the style of play to reflect that. If the coach can't meet the expectation, the coach might really be the problem.

 

Couple the red card rule change with a coaches rule that a player who gets a yellow is done for the game (our coaches rule), and pretty soon the players try not to touch a player, let alone challenge for a 50-50 ball.

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The zero tolerance on language is a soccer thing not a TSSAA thing. Whether your playing club or HS, bad language will almost always get you a card. But remember the Refs handbook everything starts with "In the opinion of the ref......" So your punishment will very.

 

 

 

Not entirely certain that's completely correct. The language issue is somewhat sport specific, but let's face it. It's entirely at the discretion of the individual official, so punishments will vary - that i agree with. A red for language is addressed within the FIFA laws...not that TSSAA adheres to FIFA law; it adheres to NFHS law which is the reason why high school officials can take an open book test and better officials don't ref high school. They don't get hours towards grade improvement for USSF.

 

The problem with the language rule as it's enforced by the state is that it is being enforced as a sport specific rule. Football players are not ejected; basketball players are not ejected; baseball players are not ejected. Soccer players may well be. The issue is with the parity of enforcement between sports. The state very much enforces the ejection of soccer players for language as a violation of sportsmanship. So, why then is the same rule of sportsmanship not enforced in every sport? Remember, even the law book says foul and abusive language is considered "unsporting behavior." It seems particularly hypocritical to enforce sportsmanship in one sport but not in others claiming that it's "a rule of the game." That's a cop-out of the first order.

 

I'll not try to rationalize the use of foul language by high school athletes - i'm pretty good at cussing, so it's part of my everyday speech however inexcusable. However, I can't see the logic behind punishing one group for behavior that goes unpunished in others. A two game suspension for dropping an 'F' bomb during a heated match is overkill. Especially when the same behavior on a football field draws - at worst - a 15 yard penalty. And that, rarely.

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Couple the red card rule change with a coaches rule that a player who gets a yellow is done for the game (our coaches rule), and pretty soon the players try not to touch a player, let alone challenge for a 50-50 ball.

 

Man,Kit Kat, you have some REALLY good points. I also agree that a player will get away with 2 things... what the ref lets him get away with, but more importantly, what his coach will let him get away with.

 

The part that I quoted above has merit, but I don't adopt it as a "rule". I really depends on the card. If it is agressiveness that is one thing (unless it has intent to hurt or injure... there is no excuse for that), language and arguing is another. Arguing with the ref, and use of foul language is a personal lack of discipline. We had a long talk about that last night on my team. It gets you NO WHERE to argue with a ref (except on the bench!) and there is NO PLACE for foul language on the field (my 7 and 5 year old kids come to all of our game, and I expect my team to set an example). Now, do they always do that? I wish I could say yes, but even on a Christian team, there are going to be poor choices. I just explain to my boys that there are consequences to those choices, so they have to accept those in return for that.

 

I think the 2 game suspension is harsh. I thought that the one game suspension was working fine.

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BigG - I didn't mean to imply that I agreed with our coaches rule about blanketly applying the yellow card rule. I actually thought it was a very bad rule that probably cost us a trip to the region (or at least a good shot at it). With that said, I definitely support it in the case of abusive language and/or actions toward the officials. But again, I think there would be very few of those instances if there was more respect toward the players since I see very few of those instances now even given some of the official's attitudes. There has to be some middle ground when dealing with these kids who mainly just want to play soccer. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect the TSSAA and officials to respect these student athletes by providing competent and qualified (physically and knowledge wise) to oversee the games.

 

Some of the best officials I have seen have managed to take and keep control of a game by simply calling some fouls early, not necessarily cards, and setting expectations for the game. If there were 1 or 2 players bordering on out of control they would simply stop the game and talk with them in a respectful manner, not trying to intimidate, embarrass or belittle the player. I actually saw one official send a player off (no card or anything) and tell the coach to get him under control before he re-entered the game. It was amazing how effective that was.

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HB2021 - You probably don't unless you get a lawyer to do the talking. They don't like lawyers /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />. The one time I tried, they blew me off because I wasn't "an official represntative of the school".

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Talk is cheap......how does one get the TSSAA to listen??

 

 

 

If there is enough dissent on this issue would the TSSAA revisit it?

 

Does anyone know if there is a precedent? Do other governing bodies of HS athletics have a smilar rule?

 

Is anyone out there from the TSSAA that would care to comment?

 

Many good posts here!

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