OW

[bobmarley]

walkenvol,

I don't understand what you call the Simpson connection. If you are refering to the Coaches then they would have OW's every year. This is the same mind set when McCallie won 4 state championships in a row, they would always have control of awards, such as the OW.

If you are refering to the kids, I am more confused.

So, you have tainted any accomplishment by anyone related to the "Simpson Connection"

[luchador]

Xbody is right about the process of selecting the OW. Having officiated the state tournament for five years, I have been part of the process of selecting the OW. There is no written down, set criteria for determining the OW. However, there is lengthy discussion prior to the finals about who the candidates are and why for the awards. Three or four solid choices are laid out on which to vote.

True, the refs don't and can't see all of the wrestlers and all of the matches. The coaches also don't and can't see all of the wrestlers and all of the matches. The referees are selected for the state tournament as unbiased judges and evaluators of the actions in the matches. They are just as unbiased when voting for the OW awards.

My hat's off to Keller for an outstanding career. Simply said, Yost had a better and more dominating tournament and deserved the OW award. Simpson also was the best choice for the DII OW based on his performance during last year's event (including the National Anthem prior to the semi-finals.

[Edited by luchador on 8-13-02 1:55A]

 

[bobmarley]

walkenvol,

Next question. I have no problem finding Yost and Kellar's semi matches on the TSSAA site. Why do you?

135 - Matt Keller (Brad) t.f. Luke Sanders (Mont Ce) 22-7 145 - Jake Yost (SD) p. Steven Combs (Bolt) 1:38.

 

I guess the problem is DI supporters are upset that Phillip Simpson was OW his SR year and Matt Kellar was not. Maybe not. That fits into the arguement that there may need to be a clear criteria for OW. When Kellar was OW his Freshman year there were other wrestlers that could be considered better wrestlers, but he had the OUTSTANDING tournament. There will never be a year that everyone will be happy with decision.

How many mutiple state champions were not OW's?

[CoachBruce]

Ok, Luchador (or anyone else who has actually had experience and a Say in the matter)

 

let's say Brewster ekes it out against Keller that year. did the Plaque already have his name on it until the upset?

 

be honest.....

[luchador]

I am not sure if it was. That was my first year coaching and I didn't work that state tournament. He would have definately been listed as one of the candidates. I checked back on TSSAA.org and Brewster had 1 pin, 1 tech, 1 major and a decision over a freshman (Yost) to get into the finals.

Just for fun I looked at Keller's results. 3 pins, 1 major over Sweeton and an 11 point win over Brewster. I also looked at other results. Sean Kim of Brentwood had reason to be upset. He is the only wrestler that pinned all 5 of his opponents. I am sure that his name was brought up.

In the past there have been some "no brainers a.k.a. mandates" thrown out there for the referees. When Eric Collins of Red Bank and Zak Dailey of Mt. Juliet were in the finals, we were told that the winner of that match should be the OW (defending champion against defending champion). Keep in mind that these discussions are held before the finals and not after them.

[Edited by luchador on 8-13-02 12:13P]

 

[cbg]

luch,

 

Who told you that the winner of Collins & Daily would be the OW? I hope that you intended it as a joke when you said that Brewster would have been considered because he wrestled at Overton and Ronnie Carter used to coach there. If someone with the TSSAA is throwing out these mandates then the officials need to step forward and tell the TSSAA that they can choose the recepient of OW in the future. We should all be careful not say or do anything to tarnish the OW award that so many in the past have received and deserved. This type of talk just adds fuel to the fire that the OW award at the State Tournament is most subjective and political.

[Guest]

luchador.....Are you saying that just because Ronnie Carter used to coach at Overton that he would push for an Overton wrestler? I don't think so. I've been involved in that meeting as an official for several years now and I've never felt that Ronnie pushed for ANYONE in those meetings. I was also in the same meeting with you the year of Collins vs Daily, and I never heard anyone say that the winner of that match would be OW. RC does go through each weight class and we discuss who is OW caliber and who isn't but it's something everyone either agrees with or actually throws out comments about if they feel differently. We take several things into consideration including tournament performance and toughness of the weight class. What you are suggesting is that RC sets the ballot in stone and then we vote and that is simply not true.

 

I enjoy reading your posts, but I feel that you are a little off on this one. I'll try not to take it out on you on the mat this year. Ha Ha.

 

xbody

[walkenvol]

The Simpson connection would be Coach Simpson - MBA, Coach Simpson - FRA, Coach Dunning (I believe Mrs Dunning's maiden name was Simpson), 2 Simpson officials, and numerous other middle TN officials who appear to be close personal friends.

 

Are all these good people who have made outstanding contributions to the sport and to young people in the Nashville area? ABSOLUTELY!

 

Are they able to be totally unbiased towards their sons, nephews, and children of close personal friends? Can anybody? Is this a big deal? No. But, when is starts influencing the officiating and the outcome of the matches it is a big deal. I don't know the names of the middle TN officials but everyone knows who I am referring to. He is blonde with a mustache and several of his fingers don't appear to be able to straighten. This is easily noticable when he awards points. You also see him at the tournaments buddying up with the Simpson Connection. Several thousand people watched him as the assistant official stop Patrick's 2001 state semis match when Patrick was getting pinned on the mythical "watch for blood" call when there was no blood to be found. To Patrick's credit, he was able to capitalize on that gift to come back in the rest of the match to win and go on to win in the finals. Was that accomplishment tainted? I would say that the booing of the crowd answered that question. Would that have happened at another gym with unbiased officials, stopping a state tournament semis match with the defending champion getting pinned because you might see a small amount of blood? Not in all the years I've been involved with this sport. The two officials would make absolutely sure there was bleeding before they stopped a match like that. Does that taint everything else he has done? No way. By all appearances, he is a fine young man who will do well for himself in the future.

 

OW is usually an afterthought. At most tournaments, the coaches and officials will vote at the end of the tournament. They're all tired and ready to go and the tournament director is scrambling around to collect ballots. Typically, you vote for somebody you know to be a really good wrestler. Simple as that.

 

I don't understand your point about McCallie. Gordon Connell doesn't have any brothers officiating or coaching who would be biased to vote for McCallie wrestlers.

 

Posted by bobmarley:

walkenvol,

I don't understand what you call the Simpson connection. If you are refering to the Coaches then they would have OW's every year. This is the same mind set when McCallie won 4 state championships in a row, they would always have control of awards, such as the OW.

If you are refering to the kids, I am more confused.

So, you have tainted any accomplishment by anyone related to the "Simpson Connection"

[bobmarley]

Now that the Simpsom Connection has been defined, does it have an impact on the OW? The Simpsons have been around for a awhile and there have been maybe six OW's with any relation to a Simpson (child or coached by). There have been three in a row in the past three years. Walkenvol has made claim that may last year's DII OW may have not not been the best choice for OW. Can he say the same for the two years prior?

[luchador]

xbody,

I edited out the part about RC. The discussions before the finals are about who should be considered, but the refs are always free to vote on whomever they want. The year with Dailey over Collins, what I stated was brought up. RC likes the state champ vs state champ match ups. It was not mandated, but essentially stated that the winner of that match should be the OW. No other wrestlers were discussed that year as potential candidates. The other four years I worked the tournament, multiple candidates were always presented.

[Guest]

luchador,

My post wasn't intended to sound disprespectful and hopefully you didn't take it that way. I'm getting a kick out of this alledged Simpson Mafia among the refs. It's funny. Hey man, you've been there and you know how tough it is and you also know that we are human and we make mistakes. The trick is to not make the same mistake twice. Officiating wrestling is tough...very tough. If people have a problem with officiating please feel free to sign up and work with us, we are always looking for new refs.

 

OW is a great honor to receive and the refs do take it seriously. We don't all agree but we do have a very good feel for wrestling talent and performance during the state tournament. In my opinion, every place winner at the state is an OW.

 

xbody

[Edited by xbody on 8-13-02 12:57P]

 

[walkenvol]

xbody,

 

I know for a fact that Red Bank refused to return to the Father Ryan Inv because of perceived officiating biased toward the Nashville wrestlers and that McCallie only returned when Father Ryan agreed to bring in some Chattanooga officials. I don't see this happening in other cities. I've seen what I considered poor officiating, but it usually went both ways.

 

The officials for the regional tournaments are selected by vote of the high school coaches. Surely you don't think that some officials are above playing favorites to whom they perceive as being the most influential coaches. ###### off one of the big coaches and see where you come out in the voting. There's politics in this sport just like in all walks of life. Do you think it was just coincidence that "watch for blood" call just happened to be in the Father Ryan gym involving one of the Simpsons with a Simpson friendly official? That may well of been the worst call I ever saw in such an important match. I believe that Ronnie Carter attempts to use quality officials who wouldn't make such a terrible call if they were neutral. The best think that the TSSAA has done lately was move the DII tournament to UTC out of the Father Ryan gym.

 

Bobmarley,

 

I would have voted for Phillip as OW in 2000 and 2001, but that is just my opinion as it is just my opinion that there were other champions in 2002 that may have had a more outstanding tournament then Patrick. I wish both these young men the best. Go ARMY!

 

Posted by xbody:

luchador,

My post wasn't intended to sound disprespectful and hopefully you didn't take it that way. I'm getting a kick out of this alledged Simpson Mafia among the refs. It's funny. Hey man, you've been there and you know how tough it is and you also know that we are human and we make mistakes. The trick is to not make the same mistake twice. Officiating wrestling is tough...very tough. If people have a problem with officiating please feel free to sign up and work with us, we are always looking for new refs.

 

OW is a great honor to receive and the refs do take it seriously. We don't all agree but we do have a very good feel for wrestling talent and performance during the state tournament. In my opinion, every place winner at the state is an OW.

 

xbody

[Edited by xbody on 8-13-02 12:57P]