State Tournament Officiating

[tnsmokediver]

I watched the match live and couldn't believe the call and I just watched it again and feel the same.

 

Seems to me that the ref got frustrated with the stalemates and made the call to make a point and force a different action. I'm not an expert and Lond knows, I don't want to wear those stripes, but this one has a huge question mark.

 

I know judgement calls are a part of the sport and if wrestlers and coaches want to avoid the question marks, they shouldn't be in a position for one call to determine the outcome of the match. However, I do think the match should be called consistently from start to finish.

 

Also, could someone help me clarify the rule on what is out of bounds? I noticed that many times, the wrestlers were heading toward the edge of the mat and the whistle was blown before both were actually out of the circle. On one occasion, it looked to me like wrestler A was fleeing towards the coach chairs and wrestler B was on the legs trying to keep his feet in bounds, but the action was stopped before both were actually out. Same thing a couple of times as the wrestlers were heading out of bounds towards the floor.

 

Should there be more room outside the circle to avoid potentially dangerous situations? Eg....running into the coaches chairs?

 

Per the NFHS Rule Book: Out of bounds occurs when a supporting part of both wrestlers is on and/or beyond the boundary line.

 

New this year was a change that now includes the line as in-bounds. In previous years, a wrestler's supporting part was out if it were touching the line (just like the sideline in football).

 

There are times when we officiate in places that have the facilities to support additional out of bounds space and we have to call out of bounds early for the safety of the wrestlers.

 

Hope this answers your question about the definition of the rule. I did not see the match so I can not give an opinion as to if the rule were misapplied.

[tnsmokediver]

It's too bad that there are 70+ posts regarding officiating (bad). sic. Should spend this great opportunity to applaud the great wrestlers this weekend! They are the ones that brought 3000 people to watch them! And they are the ones that have spent endless hours sweating, starving, and praying in their faith for strength! God bless them all.

 

Agreed.

 

I was working this weekend and watched the finals online.

 

It that this is the same ole song and dance every year. Usually from the same people who claim to be experts but do not offer their services for the betterment of the sport. Instead they post to complain about those who do give back to a sport that has made them better human beings.

 

Every year kids across the state give their blood, sweat and tears for a sport that is unforgiving as it is rewarding, without any promise of how it will end. The only thing that can be guaranteed is that the harder they work and sacrifice, the better chance they will have at determining the outcome on their own.

[reftn]

Well, I'll make the call to the one I know well. If he gives me the ok, and you give me a contact, I'll let you know. My advise to him would be to not, he doesn't need the brotherhood coming down on him for breaking the code. I know what I heard, and besides the three officials (only two made the comments, the other just stood there), in uniform on the floor, there were at least two other fans present who heard it. Water under the bridge because you can't change the screw-up. And you are correct, they each had a chance in overtime, where the ry kid AGAIN took a shot, the same one he had been taking. At least he didn't get called for stalling there.

 

Number of shots isn't in there, but being offensive is. Ryan kid was attacking and working for the takedown, Mc was sprawling and blocking.

 

This has nothing to do with the McCallie wrestler. He seems like a good solid kid and a heck of a wrestler. Anytime you win a state championship you deserve it, and he most certainly does.

 

You can email me here. Its wide open.

 

Also, let me explain something that everyone in wrestling generally knows.

 

Wrestlers tell on themselves. Not in a bad sense. This is the only sport I have been around where after you get waxed by another wrestler, you can go to him and he will tell you everything he did to wax you. No secrets. We show each other our weapons. We're proud of them. We scout each other to a large extent through mutual competitors. I assume that still occurs. It always did.

 

No different in officiating. If I would gladly exchange emails with those officials to see what they saw that I did not. Thats how we learn from each other as officials and is perhaps the best thing about being asked to call state meets. I might exchange an email and determine to change my mind and concede the point. In essence I will have learned something and that is always a positive.

 

I cannot find the match on tssaa website. I would gladly watch it again.

[bigblu1]

Maybe Moseley should have worked on finishing his shots as much as Berz did on defending them. Sitting in my house back here in Chattanooga last night I was surprised the ref didn't call it earlier. It was clear the FR wrestler was shooting not to score, but to hold on to the leg. Congrats to Berz for being a one time placer and state champion.

[DaisyMay]

I've been in the sport a long, long time. D-1 supporter, mostly. Didn't even see this match until today. Don't follow either team, don't know either wrestler. Not a referee, not a coach. Tough timing and a heart-breaker, but it was the RIGHT CALL.

[Jackson]

Although I was not at the Tournament, I have gone to the TSSAA website and watched the match. Throughout the match the Father Ryan wrestler did shoot, but as soon as he shot his head went straight into the mat and he did not attempt to go any further. Furthermore he did not change his strategy, but kept going back to a stalemate. The only thing I would have faulted the official for, would have been for not calling stalling earlier. It was probably one of the most boring matches I have watched.

 

On more than one occassion this official has told me to keep my seat when I disagreed with him, but I hold him in the highest regard for his knowledge and fairness. As a matter of fact the first dual meet he ever called was for me 25 years ago. I find it hard to believe that anyone could think of him doing anything but calling a match by the rules without showing favoritism to either side.

[sassy]

It is apparent that the ref stripped Moseley of his championship title. If the ref is any kind of a man, he should step up to the plate and have the balls to admit that he is human and that he made a bad judgement call, as well as make a formal apology.

 

By doing this I know that it would not change the outcome but it certainly could earn respect for the ref.

 

It happened in professional baseball----why can it not happen in high school wrestling?

[barbwire]

In an effort to bring fairness to light, I would please have everyone that has commented on this thread to consider the other side.

The posters on here that have referenced the NFHS document on "STALLING", have neglected to reference these points from the neutral position.

Within some point in the first 30 to 45 seconds,

each wrestler must make an honest attempt to

contact or secure a takedown.

ï¶ Getting back to our formula; an honest attempt

and aggressive wrestling includes “Initiating†a

move and “Follow up†to secure a takedown

 

ï¶ Who is the aggressor and initiating the action? Moseley

 Circling - Mosely

 Changing levels & direction - Moseley

 Attempting to penetrate - Moseley

 Creating angles, set ups and scoring

opportunities - Moseley

 

ï¶ Is not attempting to secure a takedown. - Berz

ï¶ Blocking with the arms, forearms or head - Berz

ï¶ Counter wrestling - Berz

 Use of maneuvers that are used to prevent

action - Berz

 

Any and all of the above in bold perfectly describe sprawling and hipping into an opponent, grabbing an ankle and hanging on not attempting to secure a takedown. Also never attempting to penetrate on a shot or secure a takedown.

Did this wrestler initiate any action during the match? It was all counter wrestling which in this case was a sprawl, never attempting to improve position.

 

How was this called stalling earlier in the match and then subsequently only a stalemate?

 

McC wrestler should have been hit with stalling a second time at the very least, if you as the referee are going to make that so called "gutsy" call, hit both wrestlers for stalling at the same time.

 

If you must make the call, call it fairly. both ways. regardless of how much time is left on the clock.

 

Again per the NFHS document, Moseley was the aggressor the entire match, initiating all the action, changing levels & direction, attempting to penetrate and create scoring opportunities.

 

Many of you using this document as reference seem to have conveniently left out all these key elements and rewarding the wreslter that by definition of this document was doing more of the stalling in this match.

 

I would like the ref in this match to answer this question honestly....

 

Watch the match again or just recall on your memory and sincerely say which wrestler was working harder to win that match? The answer is very simple.

Edited February 20, 2012 by barbwire

[tnsmokediver]

It is apparent that the ref stripped Moseley of his championship title. If the ref is any kind of a man, he should step up to the plate and have the balls to admit that he is human and that he made a bad judgement call, as well as make a formal apology.

 

By doing this I know that it would not change the outcome but it certainly could earn respect for the ref.

 

It happened in professional baseball----why can it not happen in high school wrestling?

 

 

Ok...just watched the match.

 

Just my opinion and observation....

 

1. Stalling could have been called against Mosely earlier. However, I am looking for it in the video now after all the talk and debate. Looking at this match without the benefit of hindsight might make a difference.

 

2. After his first shot and takedown, it appears that he gives up on the attempt to secure the points if the takedown did not come easily. While he is taking a lot of shots, he is not making the effort to finish and score with it. There was no attempt to move the head to the outside, no attempt to drive in or pull the leg in. The argument of "what can he do?" is null and void because every move or hold in this sport had a counter. Otherwise, everyone would learn that one move/hold etc and nothing else. (Also reference reftn's post quoting the case book on this situation.)

 

3. If the stalling was called earlier (again with the benefit of replay) this match would have never made it to overtime giving Mosely an opportunity to win it there. (Frankly speaking, if anything the officials delay in calling stalling early on favored Mosely more than Bertz.)

 

4. The argument that it was the official who "wanted to insert himself into the outcome of this match" is a little off. More so, it appears that the folks who did not agree with the call want to put him in this situation, rather than face the fact that it was the kid who lost the match due to his unwillingness to attempt to score. I realize he did take more shots but I refer you to point 2 in my post.

 

5. Having officiated matches with Coach Simpson in the corner, I can attest to the fact that if he felt that the wrong call was made, he WOULD be at the table to discuss it. At a minimum, he would be discreetly chewing some butt from the chair.

 

The official in this match is one of the best I have worked with. I learn from him every time I work with him as well as every other official I have worked with in this state. Tater Vineyard is ABOVE board on every match he calls. Period! He loves this sport and the kids who participate in it as much or more than those of us who work and have worked with him as an official.

 

Right call.

[tnsmokediver]

In an effort to bring fairness to light, I would please have everyone that has commented on this thread to consider the other side.

The posters on here that have referenced the NFHS document on "STALLING", have neglected to reference these points from the neutral position.

Within some point in the first 30 to 45 seconds,

each wrestler must make an honest attempt to

contact or secure a takedown.

ï¶ Getting back to our formula; an honest attempt

and aggressive wrestling includes “Initiating†a

move and “Follow up†to secure a takedown

 

ï¶ Who is the aggressor and initiating the action? Moseley

 Circling - Mosely

 Changing levels & direction - Moseley

 Attempting to penetrate - Moseley

 Creating angles, set ups and scoring

opportunities - Moseley

 

ï¶ Is not attempting to secure a takedown. - Berz

ï¶ Blocking with the arms, forearms or head - Berz

ï¶ Counter wrestling - Berz

 Use of maneuvers that are used to prevent

action - Berz

 

Any and all of the above in bold perfectly describe sprawling and hipping into an opponent, grabbing an ankle and hanging on not attempting to secure a takedown. Also never attempting to penetrate on a shot or secure a takedown.

Did this wrestler initiate any action during the match? It was all counter wrestling which in this case was a sprawl, never attempting to improve position.

 

How was this called stalling earlier in the match and then subsequently only a stalemate?

 

McC wrestler should have been hit with stalling a second time at the very least, if you as the referee are going to make that so called "gutsy" call, hit both wrestlers for stalling at the same time.

 

If you must make the call, call it fairly. both ways. regardless of how much time is left on the clock.

 

Again per the NFHS document, Moseley was the aggressor the entire match, initiating all the action, changing levels & direction, attempting to penetrate and create scoring opportunities.

 

Many of you using this document as reference seem to have conveniently left out all these key elements and rewarding the wreslter that by definition of this document was doing more of the stalling in this match.

 

I would like the ref in this match to answer this question honestly....

 

Watch the match again or just recall on your memory and sincerely say which wrestler was working harder to win that match? The answer is very simple.

 

Initiating without an attempt to finish is stalling.

 

It appears after his first shot and takedown that if the points didn't come easily, that he was creating a stalemate in order to get a fresh start.

 

I have had this argument thrown at me before after calling stalling...."My kid has shot and he has not."

 

While this may have been true, the wrestler had ceased to shoot and was blocking the other wrestler out without an attempt to score. Thus stalling at this point.

 

The rule book makes no reference to shot counts.

 

Saying that a wrestler should not be hit for stalling because he does not finish or creates the stalemate situation as seen in this match would be as wrong as saying that the other kid should just assume the defensive starting position because the other kid could not score a takedown with his shots.

[sweeptheleg]

After reading all the posts and watching the video a million times I still think it was a bad call. Do I think the ref did it on purpose? No, I would hope not. I think it was just a bad call. Did Mosely get in on that shot a million times only to be stalemated? Yes he did but it was because his opponent who had a huge length advantage draped over him and grabbed the ankle. Was Mosely supposed to let go of the leg and give up two points to a wrestler who hadnt attempted one offensive move? Berz made no attempts to do anything but stalemate each of Moselys shots. Never in a million years would I call a stall on the man who has done everything in the match in favor of the wrestler who is just sprawling and stalemating without trying to score himself. That whole "you must try to improve your position" point of view should have been called against Berz if it was to be called at all. There were a lot of odd calls this year it seemed but it is what it is unfortunatley. I do think for the most part the refs are good and try their best. Its a hard job and sometimes they make mistakes, sometimes its a judgement call and they have a split second to make a decision without the benefit of watching a replay 100 times as we have. Unfortunately in this case it was at a very bad time for Mr Mosley. I thought the stall call against Ward was unwaranted as well and it could have changed the outcome of the match. As much as I wanted Marchetti to win Ward did control the flow of the match the entire time. I thought the stall calls against Westbrooks were bad as well and it very well may have caused him to get out of his game plan but Im not sure it would have made a difference as Bruner seemed to be on a mission.

[reftn]

After reading all the posts and watching the video a million times I still think it was a bad call. Do I think the ref did it on purpose? No, I would hope not. I think it was just a bad call. Did Mosely get in on that shot a million times only to be stalemated? Yes he did but it was because his opponent who had a huge length advantage draped over him and grabbed the ankle. Was Mosely supposed to let go of the leg and give up two points to a wrestler who hadnt attempted one offensive move? Berz made no attempts to do anything but stalemate each of Moselys shots. Never in a million years would I call a stall on the man who has done everything in the match in favor of the wrestler who is just sprawling and stalemating without trying to score himself. That whole "you must try to improve your position" point of view should have been called against Berz if it was to be called at all. There were a lot of odd calls this year it seemed but it is what it is unfortunatley. I do think for the most part the refs are good and try their best. Its a hard job and sometimes they make mistakes, sometimes its a judgement call and they have a split second to make a decision without the benefit of watching a replay 100 times as we have. Unfortunately in this case it was at a very bad time for Mr Mosley. I thought the stall call against Ward was unwaranted as well and it could have changed the outcome of the match. As much as I wanted Marchetti to win Ward did control the flow of the match the entire time. I thought the stall calls against Westbrooks were bad as well and it very well may have caused him to get out of his game plan but Im not sure it would have made a difference as Bruner seemed to be on a mission.

 

Do you honestly feel the FR wrestling made an honest attempt to score?

 

Read the Case Book point I cited. It is the only point in this entire thread regarding that match, and it totally supports the officials position. You have your opinion but no position with regard to the rules.

 

As another poster pointed out, the FR wrestler would have been disqualified on penalty chart progression if you had your way. Would that have been better you think, or the discretion of the official to give him an attempt to wrestle?

 

 

I am curious, why was the Ward stalling call unwarranted, in your opinion? When did he come off the bottom wrestlers hips, and how many offensive moves did he make to secure a fall? That is what he is called to do from that position.

 

The FR wrestler stood up twice to escape only to be brought down and have the saddle put back on him. I think your questioning of the official here disqualifies your interpretation of stalling altogether. But you still can have an opinion, its a relatively free country still.......