State Tournament Officiating

[facenthecrowd]

Rule book states, in part:

It is stalling in the neutral position when a wrestler:

continuously avoids contact with the opponent - check

plays the edge of the mat

prevents the opponent from returning to or remaining inbounds; or

is not attempting to secure a takedown - check

 

This is all part of the rules book for stalling and these definitions should be used as well.

 

When describing your position, you should take into account all of the rules of stalling and not just tilt it one way. If you are calling stalling on one, YOU must call it both ways as the McCallie wrestler did not attempt an offensive move.

 

The official who called this match is one of the best officials in the state and this will be proven by his induction into the Tennessee Chapter of the National Hall of Fame in a few weeks. I just think he missed the call.

 

P.S. On another note, how can a wrestler wrestle in the state tournament on Saturday when he is over? Answer: When an official makes a mistake at weigh-ins. If you don't believe me, ask the wrestler. This was the buzz on Saturday morning and Saturday night. The wrestler even admitted it because the official was thinking of the weight allowance for DI which got an additional pound more than DII. The wrestler admitted he was overweight but said he was going to wrestle because the official marked his hand. The crowd along with a some wrestlers were talking about this quite a bit. I wonder if this is true, what did the coach think?

Edited February 20, 2012 by facenthecrowd

[barrel]

Do you honestly feel the FR wrestling made an honest attempt to score?

 

Read the Case Book point I cited. It is the only point in this entire thread regarding that match, and it totally supports the officials position. You have your opinion but no position with regard to the rules.

 

As another poster pointed out, the FR wrestler would have been disqualified on penalty chart progression if you had your way. Would that have been better you think, or the discretion of the official to give him an attempt to wrestle?

 

 

I am curious, why was the Ward stalling call unwarranted, in your opinion? When did he come off the bottom wrestlers hips, and how many offensive moves did he make to secure a fall? That is what he is called to do from that position.

 

The FR wrestler stood up twice to escape only to be brought down and have the saddle put back on him. I think your questioning of the official here disqualifies your interpretation of stalling altogether. But you still can have an opinion, its a relatively free country still.......

 

 

Reftn,

If the call would have been made much earlier in the match during similar postions, we have to assume that Moseley's strategy/offense would have also changed, especially, if it cost him a point or two.

That being said it does not matter which side of the argument you take, the call should have been made consistently thoughout the match or not at all.

[reftn]

Reftn,

If the call would have been made much earlier in the match during similar postions, we have to assume that Moseley's strateygy/offense would have also changed, especially, if it cost him a point or two.

That being said it does not matter which side of the argument you take, the call should have been made consistently thoughout the match or not at all.

 

Then we should remove the stalemate call from wrestling?

[sweeptheleg]

Do you honestly feel the FR wrestling made an honest attempt to score?

 

Read the Case Book point I cited. It is the only point in this entire thread regarding that match, and it totally supports the officials position. You have your opinion but no position with regard to the rules.

 

As another poster pointed out, the FR wrestler would have been disqualified on penalty chart progression if you had your way. Would that have been better you think, or the discretion of the official to give him an attempt to wrestle?

 

 

I am curious, why was the Ward stalling call unwarranted, in your opinion? When did he come off the bottom wrestlers hips, and how many offensive moves did he make to secure a fall? That is what he is called to do from that position.

 

The FR wrestler stood up twice to escape only to be brought down and have the saddle put back on him. I think your questioning of the official here disqualifies your interpretation of stalling altogether. But you still can have an opinion, its a relatively free country still.......

 

 

I think the whole definition of stalemate needs to be considered here. Isnt a stalemate when two wrestlers can no longer move into a better position? Shouldnt the whole pace of the match be considered? If I remove myself from the situation and look at it from the refs point of view I can somewhat understand a slight argumanet. BUT if I was a ref I would take into consideration the following: A)Berz had no offense. Berz was just waiting the entire time to use his length advantage to try and score off of Moselys shot. c) was just as guilty if not more so of creating the stalemates. It is not the offensive wrestlers duty to change his offense because the other wrestler is being allowed to stand there and do nothing but sprawl and use his long arms to grab your ankle. Please take 5 minutes to watch it again without your ref glasses on, pretend you are a father Ryan fan and hopefully you can atleast see it was questionable. Do you honestly think Berz was offensive at any point in this match? If your answer is yes then you are guilty of what we are saying and that is you guys stick together through thick and thin even when the call was wrong. I do not think it was done intentionally. I do not think anybody was trying to screw anybody over. I think the ref in that match is a very good ref. I just think this was a bad call at a very bad time. Now if Berz was being the agressor and Mosely was diving in on a leg to stop berz's offense then we would have a different argument. I will have to Watch the Ward match again as I only watched it in person and that was my gut reaction at that time. I felt he was the agressor the entire match and pushed the pace of the match and kept Marchetti on the defensive the whole time and I am a Father Ryan fan. I guess by the technical letter of the rule book that isnt taken into consideration.

[facenthecrowd]

Ok...just watched the match.

 

Just my opinion and observation....

 

1. Stalling could have been called against Mosely earlier. However, I am looking for it in the video now after all the talk and debate. Looking at this match without the benefit of hindsight might make a difference.

 

2. After his first shot and takedown, it appears that he gives up on the attempt to secure the points if the takedown did not come easily. While he is taking a lot of shots, he is not making the effort to finish and score with it. There was no attempt to move the head to the outside, no attempt to drive in or pull the leg in. The argument of "what can he do?" is null and void because every move or hold in this sport had a counter. Otherwise, everyone would learn that one move/hold etc and nothing else. (Also reference reftn's post quoting the case book on this situation.)

 

3. If the stalling was called earlier (again with the benefit of replay) this match would have never made it to overtime giving Mosely an opportunity to win it there. (Frankly speaking, if anything the officials delay in calling stalling early on favored Mosely more than Bertz.)

 

4. The argument that it was the official who "wanted to insert himself into the outcome of this match" is a little off. More so, it appears that the folks who did not agree with the call want to put him in this situation, rather than face the fact that it was the kid who lost the match due to his unwillingness to attempt to score. I realize he did take more shots but I refer you to point 2 in my post.

 

5. Having officiated matches with Coach Simpson in the corner, I can attest to the fact that if he felt that the wrong call was made, he WOULD be at the table to discuss it. At a minimum, he would be discreetly chewing some butt from the chair.

 

The official in this match is one of the best I have worked with. I learn from him every time I work with him as well as every other official I have worked with in this state. Tater Vineyard is ABOVE board on every match he calls. Period! He loves this sport and the kids who participate in it as much or more than those of us who work and have worked with him as an official.

 

Right call.

 

How many times did you change the call when Coach Simpson took you to the table? What percentage of times did you change the call? I saw many times this weekend when coaches started to the table only to have the official point them back to the chair.

 

I can also tell you of another horrible call, in fact, it was multiple calls in the semis of 138 lbs between Bellet of MBA and Ward of McCallie. I too beleived MBA should have won but due to some "phantom" calls, lost the match. Coach Simpson started to the table only to be waived back to his chair. I have seen this particular official inject himself into many matches when he has no business doing. Thank God for all of DII he did not call any of the finals, much less, assist.

Edited February 20, 2012 by facenthecrowd

[williamsoncounty]

Considering the timing of the call, the score at the time, the warnings, the fact that same move occurred in OT, etc... the call was the ref's way of saying "You aren't going to win this way."

[tnwrestlingmaster]

I can also tell you of another horrible call, in fact, it was multiple calls in the semis of 138 lbs between Bellet of MBA and Ward of McCallie. I too beleived MBA should have won but due to some "phantom" calls, lost the match.

 

You Think Bellet would have won! Even if you take away the 3 penalty points (Which the one where he head butted him was completely warranted), that would have taken the match into overtime. And as we have all seen, Ward is a powerhouse when it comes to the third period/ OT matches. And another thing about the match, Bellet was clearly stalling. He wouldnt go top or bottom with Ward cause he either wouldve been pinned or reversed. So what does he do? he keeps him in neutral and stalls half the match. But I will give it to Bellet, he definitely gave Ward a tough match. But Ward definietly deserved to win it this year. He beat alot of worthy opponents this year, two of those being the state champions at 132 and 138 at D1, Austin Woods and Campbell Lewis.

And on a side note, what do yall think about the 132 match between Tim Westbrooks and Brandon Bruner. Horrible reffing!Definitely gave Westbrooks a disadvantage.

[NickGulas]

After reading the post and reviewing the video, I have one question and I hope one of the officials can help me out. If I understand the call,the FR wrestler was called for stalling in the third period for not improving his position after his shot. If this is the case then why was he not called for stalling in overtime for the same reason? If you watch the video, there looks to be no difference in the shot in the third period and the one in overtime. I appreciate any insight that one of you guys that understands the rules could give me.

[facenthecrowd]

tnwrestlingmaster, how was Bellet stalling? Are you saying he was stalling because he went nuetral and did not take top/bottom? The penalty points were terrible. The head-butt was both guys going forward. The official of this match is horrible.

[tnwrestlingmaster]

tnwrestlingmaster, how was Bellet stalling? Are you saying he was stalling because he went nuetral and did not take top/bottom? The penalty points were terrible. The head-butt was both guys going forward. The official of this match is horrible.

 

During the whole 3rd period he was completely defensive, rewatch the match, Ward is clearly the agressor in the third, and all Bellet is doing is blocking his attacks. He was trying to Stall out the match for the win. And Bellet is known for head butting his opponents. I understand these are controversial calls, but did you not read my previous comment. Take away the 3 points, that takes the match into over time. Bellet was already about done, Ward was coming at him full blown as usual in the third. I think Ward would have won no doubt in over time based on his previous record. Just watch Ward and Marchetti, he is clearly in better shape then any of his opponents.

[facenthecrowd]

During the whole 3rd period he was completely defensive, rewatch the match, Ward is clearly the agressor in the third, and all Bellet is doing is blocking his attacks. He was trying to Stall out the match for the win. And Bellet is known for head butting his opponents. I understand these are controversial calls, but did you not read my previous comment. Take away the 3 points, that takes the match into over time. Bellet was already about done, Ward was coming at him full blown as usual in the third. I think Ward would have won no doubt in over time based on his previous record. Just watch Ward and Marchetti, he is clearly in better shape then any of his opponents.

 

If I read you correctly than you would agree that Moseley got the shaft on his match since he was the agressor and all the McCallie wrestler did was sprawl and block his attacks.

 

You just made most everybody's point for how Moseley lost on a bad call!

 

Thank you.

 

P.S. Ward beat Marchetti, never questioned that; however, there are no guarantees in overtime and Bellet would have had a chance. May not be a good one but a chance.

[tnwrestlingmaster]

If I read you correctly than you would agree that Moseley got the shaft on his match since he was the agressor and all the McCallie wrestler did was sprawl and block his attacks.

 

You just made most everybody's point for how Moseley lost on a bad call!

 

Thank you.

 

P.S. Ward beat Marchetti, never questioned that; however, there are no guarantees in overtime and Bellet would have had a chance. May not be a good one but a chance.

haha wait to turn that around on me! But no I would agree with the stall call on mosley that was different. All he did was shoot with no intention to score. And every time Berz would try to tie up he would dive for his ankle. And in the rule book, one of the criteria for stalling is "Grasping one leg without a follow through with a take down, or any intention to score." But Either way yall need to stop arguing about it. It's over! they are both solid wrestlers. One had to come out on top, I'm glad it was Berz