Illegal Slam? You make the Call.

[maybe]

 

One way to correct this is to let wrestler b fall to the mat at 9.8 m/s². At the peak of the lift while holding onto the wrestler, just let the other wrestler fall to the mat under his own faculties. If he has his arms free he will most certainly put his hands out to protect his face and the end result will not be called a slam. The other option is to land the other wrestler on his hip instead of taking him forward toward his head

 

Highly incorrect (assuming you were being serious). You cannot lift an opponent and then drop or toss him without regard for the opponents safety.

Edited December 22, 2012 by maybe

[wristbar]

Highly incorrect (assuming you were being serious). You cannot lift an opponent and then drop or toss him without regard for the opponents safety.

Did I mention anything anout dropping the opponent and not controlling him or being unconcerned for the other wrestlers safety? No. At the peak of the lift you let him fall while holding onto him. Most slam calls you see are the result of wrestlers either returning the opponent to the mat with more force than would result from letting the opponent just fall or returning the wrestler toward their head neck. Which is why I say return the wrestler to the hip. When you have a high single in the air and you kick out the other wrestlers leg you dont control how they fall...gravity does and the opponent does. Same concept.

Edited December 23, 2012 by wristbar

[chesskid]

A few things I would like to throw out there.

 

First, the coach of the injured wrestler did not tell his wrestler to forfeit. I asked the wrestler, "young man, are you going to be able to continue?" He said, "No sir". Also, to the coaches credit, later in the day,

while calling another of his teams matches, I awarded his wrestler with a point for illegal hands to the face by the opponent. He then said, "I think it was really just an accident Mr. Official." Seeing that, I could tell

that he wanted his kids to win legitimately. So, please, do not lash out against the coach, especially if you have no frame of reference in the day.

 

[At the end of the day, the EMT came up to tell me that there was a chance that the injured wrestler was going to the hospital because they though he might have a concussion.

Whether or not he went, I am unsure.]

 

My reason for calling the slam had nothing to do with the differential of skill level. I do not believe that matches should be called with a bias towards inexperienced competitors.

 

The M-Elite wrestler was certainly dominating the match, and was an entertaining and aggressive

wrestler to watch. In my opinion, he was wrestling exactly the way that he was supposed to, aggressively to win.

 

Now, to the point of this thread, why call it illegal?

 

In my opinion and from my judgement, the force used at the end of the return to the mat was unnecessary. The position of the defensive wrestler's feet being in the air did not play into

this, although his inability to defend himself did. Also, it seemed that the offensive wrestler was in control, and this added to my belief that he "slammed" the defensive wrestler into the mat with added force, rather than simply returning him to the mat. Perhaps a better call would have been "unnecessary roughness", I am still working out the kinks on my wording.

 

A few things that I hinge on from the Rules Book and Case Book.

1. "The risk minimization of the wrestlers is paramount."

2. "There are some holds/maneuvers that are legitimate, but because of their nature are potentially dangerous."

3. "The referee shall enforce the letter and spirit of the rules and consistently penalize any violation promptly."

 

Let me address each of these, and why they relate.

 

1. Risk minimization. I thought this kid might have racked up a concussion. If you have ever gotten a concussion, then you should know and understand that at that moment in time, you are knocked senseless. How many times does someone with a concussion get up, not even knowing that their head hurts yet, to get back in the game. It isn't until they are dizzy and vomiting that they and others realize something is wrong. Case in point: Arizona's quarterback, Matt Scott, during football season this year. This kid saying that it was his knee that hurt surprised me for a second. I thought "chances are his head didn't hurt yet", that comes later. The last thing that I want is for a kid, especially a middle school kid, to compete with an injury that could turn into something far worse, simply because I was not diligent. One of my best friends was unable to compete his senior year due to a broken neck.

 

2. I think that the offensive wrestler was well coached, and initiated a sequence that should continue to be taught and drilled. As the book states, some legal moves, simply by their nature, can become dangerous and illegal.

As an official, I have to juggle the responsibility of keeping the kids safe, while allowing the sport to competed in an intense and aggressive manner. If I were to stop the match every time that someone got lifted off the ground,

then it would no longer be wrestling. Had the added force not been applied, I certainly would have allowed wrestling to continue. Watching the video even, it is a borderline scenario.

My opinion of what defines that "added force" may come to change through the years, but my concern for the safety and well being of the competitors will not change (if anything I believe it will grow when I have children of

my own).

 

3. I stopped the match (with my back turned to the 3-4 people that apparently came at the mat... I did not know this happened, but thanks for telling me). I awarded the penalty point as I saw it. I ended the match in accordance

with the rules book and with the wrestler's safety in mind, safety being the paramount concern (not a team score either way).

 

I hate to see a kid lose on the basis of an illegal move/ injury, especially when he is one of the best wrestlers I have seen through the day. I wish only the best for each competitor, and look forward to seeing that M-Elite wrestler

grow and progress.

 

Thank you all for this discussion. I have valued your opinions (some far more than others), and am glad that I was directed to this thread (it even got me to make a Coach T account). To the coaches of any matches that I ref this year,

my only goals are to make sure that I keep your kids safe, make sure that I am fair, as unbiased as possible, consistent, and that I continually learn and improve. Hopefully, you will see this applied and in action.

 

Merry Christmas, and happy holidays.

Edited December 23, 2012 by chesskid

[Newestguy]

Chesskid, I admire your desire to reflect on your past work and continually seek ways to improve. With your humility, I have no doubt to you will someday be an elite official. Thank you for your perspective and your hard work.

[TNKO2]

Unnecessary roughness is the appropriate call for an illegal slam.... This tourney was voluntary so no money for the refs.... You could bring the wrestler back to the mat like a baby.... But if his head hits the mat excessively, it's illegal, and the offensive wrestler didn't do his job..... Offensive wrestlers Coach yanked him up immediately after the slam and scolded him intensely..... Yeah it was unnecessary roughness.

[UncleK]

His arm was trapped so this would infact be an illegal slam

[DAKEKO]

On 12/25/2012 at 6:43 PM, TNKO2 said:

Unnecessary roughness is the appropriate call for an illegal slam.... This tourney was voluntary so no money for the refs.... You could bring the wrestler back to the mat like a baby.... But if his head hits the mat excessively, it's illegal, and the offensive wrestler didn't do his job..... Offensive wrestlers Coach yanked him up immediately after the slam and scolded him intensely..... Yeah it was unnecessary roughness.

I miss you bro. Crazy this thread coming back around 10 years later and me seeing you here defending one of our own. BRADley D. Selph

Never forgotten 

Twiins 

 

[grumpyoldman]

On 12/18/2012 at 3:07 PM, mat73557 said:

Thank you all for your input. This is great discussion material.

 

The last thing I want to do is discourage my kid from going hard and working to score. In hindsight, with an inexperienced opponent, he should have probably just cut the guy and worked on his take downs until a pinning opportunity presented.

 

Now, with that said, I can see why that return could be called illegal. I'd still like to find some case examples to help me learn more. As someone else mentioned, that same return is normally not called a slam. If the defensive guy had landed on his head disproportionally from his body, or if he landed on his back, I would say easy call. To me, this one seemed like an overreaction turned into a judgement call and it didn't go his way.

 

Wrestler A has been developing nicely and hopefully he will learn from this. When I first saw this video, I told him not to change anything he is doing. After reading this discussion, I think that was the right decision overall. He didn't intend on causing injury and he will not in the future.

 

I do question and condemn any coach who will take an undeserved win at this age. I am not saying that this was an example of that by any means. I'm just saying......

 

Thanks again for the input.

I think this is a good learning experience for everyone.  Thank you for starting the discussion.  Note:  if you can watch the really good high school teams at the state duals, you will see the mat returns take the ref out of the equation.  "Gentle like a baby"

[oceansize42]

This was a heck of thread bump considering the thread's nine years old. 

[FargoStrut]

5 hours ago, oceansize42 said:

This was a heck of thread bump considering the thread's nine years old. 

Yes sir, I think Unc created his account and decided to comment on the oldest thread he could find.

[mat73557]

Impressive to see this back after a decade!!  LOL

[GoTNwrestling]

The issue is the wrestler’s arm was blocked and was not returned safely to the mat or allow to brace himself. I would have call the same thing