State Brackets are out

[Tronado]

I know reft, I was playing with you and I thought you would be honest. The whole wrestling community knows Region 4 has the majority of the states best wrestling talent today and for the past few years. The future the times they may be a changing but not this weekend. Wilson Central and Ravenwood looks to be in a good spot for the tournament. A lot of Cleveland/Wilson Central match ups early and late could determine the champion. Its just unbelievable some of these changes could be pushed thru in what is an individual sport. Seperation in team sports with football that requires multiple team members to be good to have a shot at winning it all, I understand school size matters. Shoes and a mat, and you don't really have to have those and you could develop into your very own state champion in wrestling. It was a Coach driven ploy out of mediocrity, I've seen over the years some of this states best wrestlers come out of small schools. Pigeon Forge, Green Back, Notre Dame, Central has developed some awesome talent, State championship talent that didn't need a different tournament. If I had a son or daughter competing in high school wrestling it wouldn't be in 1A-AA, my feeling is you always want to wrestle and beat the best. Now your going to have 1 or 2 in D2, 1 or 2 in 1A-AA and 1 or 2 in AAA, that folks is not good. The fans and kids are getting ripped off. If your misunderstanding what I'm saying, the overall population in our state is not enough to support a competitive tournament for 3 divisions and then take into account the amount of wrestlers in our state, it makes no sense. If you look at Georgia, they have the population. Georgia also has an area tournament, region tournament and then a state tournament, those that aren't competitive are weeded out thru competition. A lot of our schools, even in AAA cant even field a full team of wrestlers. We have a couple of coaches that at least defended the actions taken with some heart felt beliefs, that we can all respect. Parents, you guys are in control. Put them where they can wrestle in the big matches, the awesome atmosphere with out of control fans. Its a gladiator sport that demands composure and in an instant you have to call on every muscle in the human body to survive or that final push for victory. Its a beautiful sport. Its the greatest sport.    

[rlwest40]

126 Wilkins and Debien second round . Providing they both win their first round.  Really, Yall were right no rhyme or reason. 2 losses in state all year beat ranked wrestlers. Lost to Dickenson 2 times. The number 2 ranked wrestler and get thrown to Debien that quick. I guess itll be the hard way to get a medal at all.

At least the top 3 aren't all on the same side of the bracket as some are.

[Tronado]

It easy to be negative with all the TSSAA changes, but here are a couple of facts (numbers to ponder)-

 

-this weekend the total number of qualifying wrestlers to the State- 746 (620 public, 448 AAA vs 172 A-AA & 126 private)

-in 1993 the total was 384 period

-with D-2 regions now, privates lost 98 wrestlers from last year (7 spots/wt), while publics picked up 172 (new A-AA)

-no respect of returning place winners in D-2 was given (Elisha Oliver seeded 2nd-2x state champ and Fargo champ, arguably the state's best wrestler)

Coach K....., are the more talented wrestlers more spread out than ever? Good Luck this weekend.

[Tronado]

Brackets are a complete joke again this year.

 

I've got a great idea to help the T$$AA make some more cash. How about a live stream of this 'random blind draw'. I'm sure a lot of people would pay to see the process live.

 

Too many uneven lop-sided brackets again this year.

It could be cause its a blind draw Rob.....I saw a lot of Soddy kids that coulda used a better draw. I know your very smart about your wrestling and very thorough on your research. Tell us where they fixed the brackets to benefit a certain team or a certain wrestler. Tennessee doesn't have a board that ranks wrestlers, its another coach or volunteer that takes the their time to do it. Also you would need all the top wrestlers to wrestle one another to properly seed a tournament or you would have to go by common opponents. But doing that wouldn't really be fair because wrestling is a match up of styles and in high school you have your take down artists, your spladle's ,cradles and head throwers. I do believe in seeding, I would prefer it be done thru an area, region and state setup like Georgia.  1A thru 3AAA in Georgia has an 8 man state championship bracket, by the time you get to that point the seeds would be a lot easier to do than seeding a 32 man bracket. I do believe you would be awesome at doing this though, your very knowledgeable in your wrestling observations.

[karelin]

D-II wrestlers are not seeded top guy in west goes to the bottom half of the bracket

The term seeded is incorrect, however the placement, as promised at the State Duals, was to be based on previous State placement, and that they would not be arbitrarily placed as they have been. (echos with "and you can keep your health care policy, doctors, etc with Obamacare")

[rlwest40]

I don't have a conspiracy theory. I just dislike the randomness that allows the unbalance.

 

I understand that the TSSAA does not provide the rankings but they are fairly accurate and based on current season results. The order may not end up exactly right by the end of the year but the top 6 is usually accurate.

 

I still believe that it would not be that difficult to seed a 32 man bracket using current season head-to-head, previous year's, etc. It might not be 100% accurate but most tournaments that use this standard seeding criteria is usually pretty accurate with seeding the finalists. It would provide a more balanced bracket than the current system. The Soddy Showdown was successful and accurate seeding a 16 man bracket, as was the 32 man McCallie and GP West. Many of these top wrestlers have actually faced each other, if not move on to criteria #2, 3, etc.

 

Examples: Look at this year's 120 lb bracket, 4 of the top 5 ranked wrestlers all on one side with the #4 ranked wrestler all by himself on the other side. 152 is very similar with 5 on the top and the #3 ranked wrestler on the bottom. These two are probably the worse but 106, 126, 145, 170, 182, and 195 are all unbalanced. #1 and #2 are on the same side of the bracket in 120, 152, 195, 220, and 285. The top 3 are grouped on the same side of the bracket in 120, 195, and 285. Again, ranking isn't an exact science but its very accurate and very similar to seeding criteria which I believe would provide much more balance than what we have now. I believe an educated guess would be better than random selection.

Edited February 11, 2014 by rlwest40

[goblue1]

I don't have a conspiracy theory. I just dislike the randomness that allows the unbalance.

 

I understand that the TSSAA does not provide the rankings but they are fairly accurate and based on current season results. The order may not end up exactly right by the end of the year but the top 6 is usually accurate.

 

I still believe that it would not be that difficult to seed a 32 man bracket using current season head-to-head, previous year's, etc. It might not be 100% accurate but most tournaments that use this standard seeding criteria is usually pretty accurate with seeding the finalists. It would provide a more balanced bracket than the current system. The Soddy Showdown was successful and accurate seeding a 16 man bracket, as was the 32 man McCallie and GP West. Many of these top wrestlers have actually faced each other, if not move on to criteria #2, 3, etc.

 

Examples: Look at this year's 120 lb bracket, 4 of the top 5 ranked wrestlers all on one side with the #4 ranked wrestler all by himself on the other side. 152 is very similar with 5 on the top and the #3 ranked wrestler on the bottom. These two are probably the worse but 106, 126, 145, 170, 182, and 195 are all unbalanced. #1 and #2 are on the same side of the bracket in 120, 152, 195, 220, and 285. The top 3 are grouped on the same side of the bracket in 120, 195, and 285. Again, ranking isn't an exact science but its very accurate and very similar to seeding criteria which I believe would provide much more balance than what we have now. I believe an educated guess would be better than random selection.

I agree some are really unbalanced not sure how 120 ended up like that someone on the bottom half is a lucky guy.

[Tronado]

The term seeded is incorrect, however the placement, as promised at the State Duals, was to be based on previous State placement, and that they would not be arbitrarily placed as they have been. (echos with "and you can keep your health care policy, doctors, etc with Obamacare")

I bet you were watching the Beetles special over the weekend,......weren't you. Obama would make sure every one gets a medal too..  120 is nasty!!!, Got to be focused round 1. Sweet Quarter match too. I'd like to be up there to watch that one.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Tronado

[rlwest40]

In response to your question, I'll answer with statistics.

 

After a closer review of only the unbalanced brackets with consideration given to the ranked wrestlers on the weaker side of the bracket it appears that several different teams from four different regions benefit.

 

Two from region 4 benefit being the favorite on the weaker side.

Two from region 5 benefit being the favorite on the weaker side.

Two from region 6 benefit being the favorite on the weaker side.

Five from region 7 benefit being the favorite on the weaker side.

 

These are the the top regions in the state. Regions 4, 5, and 6 all seem to get an equal amount of great draws due to the lop-sided brackets so I see this as a wash between these regions. Region 7 seems to benefit the most by getting 3 additional unbalanced draws in their favor.

[Artist]

some of that "unbalance" is based on how some of the "top" kids may have been upset in their Region Tourneys and also you rightly or wrongly are basing your top kids on rankings done by two coaches (not necessarily correct).  This is now a double elimination tourney and not a carry like in the past.  There are 32 talented kids in each weight class getting the opportunity to settle this debate on the mat and if two top guys meet early, it won't be the first time, and as you (rlwrest) have said this is about being the best wrestler.  So beat him early, beat him late it only matters for team score and this tourney is about the individual.  So unless you can develop a better system, get many other coaches behind it, and get TSSAA to approve it ...let's just let the kids wrestle it out.

 

Also, The TSSAA has made changes to the format of the tourney to try and make it more exciting for the fans and wrestlers.  All coaches were sent a poll at the beginning of the season and were asked for input.  Many responded and changes were made.  I was involved and I know Mark was very motivated to make positive changes.   So try and be positive

 

Gabe

[Tronado]

In response to your question, I'll answer with statistics.

 

After a closer review of only the unbalanced brackets with consideration given to the ranked wrestlers on the weaker side of the bracket it appears that several different teams from four different regions benefit.

 

Two from region 4 benefit being the favorite on the weaker side.

Two from region 5 benefit being the favorite on the weaker side.

Two from region 6 benefit being the favorite on the weaker side.

Five from region 7 benefit being the favorite on the weaker side.

 

These are the the top regions in the state. Regions 4, 5, and 6 all seem to get an equal amount of great draws due to the lop-sided brackets so I see this as a wash between these regions. Region 7 seems to benefit the most by getting 3 additional unbalanced draws in their favor.

Rob, I just glanced over the final ranking's from last year before the state tournament. On USA wrestling-Tennessee website. At 160 the 5th ranked wrestler won a state championship and a lot of ranked guys didn't even medal. 1 and 2 did ok, but from there u coulda thrown dice at the wall and done as well. Some 2's didn't even medal. We both know its not an exact science, I was looking at the emphasis you were putting on 'blind draw' when you do that it makes it sound like you think someone was shown favor from nefarious minds wrecking kids dreams.  

[reftn]

I know reft, I was playing with you and I thought you would be honest. The whole wrestling community knows Region 4 has the majority of the states best wrestling talent today and for the past few years. The future the times they may be a changing but not this weekend. Wilson Central and Ravenwood looks to be in a good spot for the tournament. A lot of Cleveland/Wilson Central match ups early and late could determine the champion. Its just unbelievable some of these changes could be pushed thru in what is an individual sport. Seperation in team sports with football that requires multiple team members to be good to have a shot at winning it all, I understand school size matters. Shoes and a mat, and you don't really have to have those and you could develop into your very own state champion in wrestling. It was a Coach driven ploy out of mediocrity, I've seen over the years some of this states best wrestlers come out of small schools. Pigeon Forge, Green Back, Notre Dame, Central has developed some awesome talent, State championship talent that didn't need a different tournament. If I had a son or daughter competing in high school wrestling it wouldn't be in 1A-AA, my feeling is you always want to wrestle and beat the best. Now your going to have 1 or 2 in D2, 1 or 2 in 1A-AA and 1 or 2 in AAA, that folks is not good. The fans and kids are getting ripped off. If your misunderstanding what I'm saying, the overall population in our state is not enough to support a competitive tournament for 3 divisions and then take into account the amount of wrestlers in our state, it makes no sense. If you look at Georgia, they have the population. Georgia also has an area tournament, region tournament and then a state tournament, those that aren't competitive are weeded out thru competition. A lot of our schools, even in AAA cant even field a full team of wrestlers. We have a couple of coaches that at least defended the actions taken with some heart felt beliefs, that we can all respect. Parents, you guys are in control. Put them where they can wrestle in the big matches, the awesome atmosphere with out of control fans. Its a gladiator sport that demands composure and in an instant you have to call on every muscle in the human body to survive or that final push for victory. Its a beautiful sport. Its the greatest sport.    

Hat tip to Tronado.

 

Take a bow.

 

The Duals are the perfect outlet for multiple divisions among schools for varying populations.

 

We are like a voice crying in the wilderness for a reunification of a State Individual Tournament.

 

 

We should have coffee.