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State Dual Ref Performance


mat73557
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Fellas, Thanks for your unabashed criticism. It makes me want to keep posting here.... I am not a coach so I am still learning. As to the other folks who gave their thoughts without insult, thank you.

 

 

If you spent half the time looking into the rule as you did editing and making that video you would have learned that the referee made the right call. 

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There are three (3) things that could be done to help with getting the best officials at the state tournament:

1.  Have a regional working officiating clinic on a Saturday before the season starts.  This means that the officials get on the mat and work some exhibition matches for part of the clinic.  Bring in what is considered one of the best officials in the country to do the clinics.

2.  Only use the best officials from Tennessee to officiate the state tournament.  Throw out the idea that you are going to spread the wealth and get officials from various sections of the state.

3.  I have been told that the TSSAA selects the officials based on the evaluations that are made by former officials.  Throw any and all bias out of the equation and use evaluators from another state like Iowa, PA, IL, Ohio, etc... This way you get away from someone evaluating someone to hard or to easily due to the officials prior reputation.  Everyone would get a fresh start and be evaluated on their ability at the present time. 

 

The evaluators are receiving some type of stipend to do the evaluations so just pay someone from another state  that would not know any of the Tennessee officials.  The only reason not to use my suggestions is because you want to "control" the evaluations. 

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There are three (3) things that could be done to help with getting the best officials at the state tournament:

1.  Have a regional working officiating clinic on a Saturday before the season starts.  This means that the officials get on the mat and work some exhibition matches for part of the clinic.  Bring in what is considered one of the best officials in the country to do the clinics.

2.  Only use the best officials from Tennessee to officiate the state tournament.  Throw out the idea that you are going to spread the wealth and get officials from various sections of the state.

3.  I have been told that the TSSAA selects the officials based on the evaluations that are made by former officials.  Throw any and all bias out of the equation and use evaluators from another state like Iowa, PA, IL, Ohio, etc... This way you get away from someone evaluating someone to hard or to easily due to the officials prior reputation.  Everyone would get a fresh start and be evaluated on their ability at the present time. 

 

The evaluators are receiving some type of stipend to do the evaluations so just pay someone from another state  that would not know any of the Tennessee officials.  The only reason not to use my suggestions is because you want to "control" the evaluations. 

Ken Mara is one of the evaluators.  Ken had consistently called at the highest level of our sport (NCAAs) and was chosen to call  the finals of the NCAAs for many many years.  I am not sure you can find anyone more qualified to be an evaluator, and certainly not with his resume.

 

But using this current thread as evidence, this is a rule book issue and was brought forward because the rule was not understood by someone that is not required to take the rules book test or even read it.  I think its good these things come out here and can be discussed and lead to some understanding.

 

 

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There are three (3) things that could be done to help with getting the best officials at the state tournament:

1. Have a regional working officiating clinic on a Saturday before the season starts. This means that the officials get on the mat and work some exhibition matches for part of the clinic. Bring in what is considered one of the best officials in the country to do the clinics.

2. Only use the best officials from Tennessee to officiate the state tournament. Throw out the idea that you are going to spread the wealth and get officials from various sections of the state.

3. I have been told that the TSSAA selects the officials based on the evaluations that are made by former officials. Throw any and all bias out of the equation and use evaluators from another state like Iowa, PA, IL, Ohio, etc... This way you get away from someone evaluating someone to hard or to easily due to the officials prior reputation. Everyone would get a fresh start and be evaluated on their ability at the present time.

 

The evaluators are receiving some type of stipend to do the evaluations so just pay someone from another state that would not know any of the Tennessee officials. The only reason not to use my suggestions is because you want to "control" the evaluations.

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CBG, If you think that call was bad...it can only be worse. I saw a ref, that formerly wrestled for Dupont HS, many years ago in one of the most prestigious tournaments (tougher then state now), showing a full nelson penalty and allowing the motion to continue as if it were locked hands. He obviously never ref'd again at a high level, but that certainly supports your postion on the "good old boy network"

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CBG, If you think that call was bad...it can only be worse. I saw a ref, that formerly wrestled for Dupont HS, many years ago in one of the most prestigious tournaments (tougher then state now), showing a full nelson penalty and allowing the motion to continue as if it were locked hands. He obviously never ref'd again at a high level, but that certainly supports your postion on the "good old boy network"

Just making a suggestion to remove all doubt of any "Good Ole Boy" system being involved. I could care less who is used but like another poster said it is difficult to swallow when the kids work hard and the officials blow the match. No matter how long or good someone is they are going to miss calls but when it is repeatedly done there is an issue.

 

With regards to Ken being a good official you are correct but that does not remove the fact that he is personal friends with some of the officials.

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If wrestling officials do such a horrible job then why don't these dads come go down and get training so they can be the best official in the state... Face it just like with all sports the person in charge has their fav umps officials etc and that's who get to work state...seems like there is way more Nashville refs then east and west tn. Maybe I'm wrong about that.. There's got to be something to change it up cause you may have young guys who are starting out officiating but may be better then the veterans. And yes that is possible. No matter what fans will always hate the refs part of being in sports we all yell at football basketball soccer baseball officials all the time.. In the end everyone is human and make mistakes... I would hate to believe that officials are out there to screw a kid out of a match or a game

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Fellas, Thanks for your unabashed criticism. It makes me want to keep posting here.... I am not a coach so I am still learning. As to the other folks who gave their thoughts without insult, thank you.And I wasn't the first one to complain about state tournament refs...that title went to IrishDadRedux on the "Father Ryan vs McCallie in the Semifinals?" thread.God forbid that a Father Ryan wrestler get a bad call. The language I heard at the Bradley tournament was so dirty when their guys lost I had to take a shower. (I know that is not representative of ALL Ryan supporters, but if the shoe fits.....)Anyhow, Thanks for helping me better understand a very confusing set of stalling criteria (which is often called differently from match to match AND is often called differently in February than it is in November)As to not to offend any one elses fragile sensitivities, I have disabled access to the offending video. 160 views is enough apparently.Good luck at state.

Well you did not need to take a shower one of the Ryan parent's could have sprinkled a little holy water on you and you would have been fine.

Maybe just maybe your team could take some lessons from the Ryan team and you might have won a match at the state duals.

Edited by PaulSimpson
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As a coach I have seen refs become more consistent with the way they call matches personally, but have seen consistency from ref to ref or area to area become more of a problem. I have seen the video in question and have seen the exact scenario called (not for the 5 seconds heel to butt, but rather or not the top guy is actually trying to improve his situation to secure a pin) and uncalled.  I think a clarification of rules and movement more towards the college rules would benefit the sport. One in particular is stalling on the wrestler in control after the bottom wrestler has risen to his feet. Some referees use a five count (not in the rule book, but a good general reference) others simply call what they see as action/no action. I would prefer the rules be more exact, exampled by a vocal 5 count the moment bottom wrestler gets to his or her feet. This does put the top wrestler at a disadvantage, but it creates consistency which leads to easier instruction during practice. I would also like a clearer definition to stalling as it relates to effort, technique, and ability. Some refs call stalling for the lack of all three where others look at just one or two of the components and not the other. If the lack of technique or ability is stalling then it needs to be called consistently, which again would lead to better instruction. Just a couple of examples of this would be heavyweights becoming overpowered or top wrestlers riding or turning. 

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As a coach I have seen refs become more consistent with the way they call matches personally, but have seen consistency from ref to ref or area to area become more of a problem. I have seen the video in question and have seen the exact scenario called (not for the 5 seconds heel to butt, but rather or not the top guy is actually trying to improve his situation to secure a pin) and uncalled.  I think a clarification of rules and movement more towards the college rules would benefit the sport. One in particular is stalling on the wrestler in control after the bottom wrestler has risen to his feet. Some referees use a five count (not in the rule book, but a good general reference) others simply call what they see as action/no action. I would prefer the rules be more exact, exampled by a vocal 5 count the moment bottom wrestler gets to his or her feet. This does put the top wrestler at a disadvantage, but it creates consistency which leads to easier instruction during practice. I would also like a clearer definition to stalling as it relates to effort, technique, and ability. Some refs call stalling for the lack of all three where others look at just one or two of the components and not the other. If the lack of technique or ability is stalling then it needs to be called consistently, which again would lead to better instruction. Just a couple of examples of this would be heavyweights becoming overpowered or top wrestlers riding or turning. 

More consistency is the answer.  Not more rules.

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More consistency is the answer.  Not more rules.

 

With all due respect, if things were called more consistently, then perhaps I wouldnt be on here asking "embarrassing" questions! 

 

Well you did not need to take a shower one of the Ryan parent's could have sprinkled a little holy water on you and you would have been fine.

Maybe just maybe your team could take some lessons from the Ryan team and you might have won a match at the state duals.

And while I am here - - This comment ^^ Perhaps you're trying to improve my perception of those Ryan fans who were being obnoxious and cursing loudly at Bradley. (They know who they are) Your low blow shot at Blackman's kids will probably go a long way in winning hearts and minds....

 

Just sayin...

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