TenWay State Championships

[ghouse]

TN can step up by sending kids to more out of state tourneys. TSSAA is doing us a disservice by not letting our kids compete at Beast of the East, POWERade, Walsh, etc the list goes on and on. Im all for competition and mat time. But adding another in state tournament isn't exactly going to turn TN into a national powerhouse. There are many other factors preventing that. 

 

WrestlingGod,

 

You are aware that TN teams can compete in those tournaments if they get the invitation correct?  The only limitations for TN teams comes in the form # of dates / tournaments and one major travel restriction.  That travel restriction limits each TN team to one trip outside of the state borders that is in excess of a certain amount of miles round-trip.  I want to say it was 300 miles one-way but I can't remember now off the top of my head as it has been a while since I had to dig into that rule.  Heck, the TSSAA has even let teams use a straight line as the crow flies measurement over mileage on roads in the past.

 

What that ultimately means is that any TN team with the a)wrestlers to get themselves invites and b)funds to make the trips, can do so.  However, they can only do one such trip which probably is plenty for most of TN.

 

Just wanted you to be aware that the opportunity is there.

[Sommers]

You are a wordsmith Mr SBA.... BACK ON YOUR GAME

[durdon]

So I am not sure what to think when so many people seem to be interested in my opinions / thoughts. Unfortunately I couldn't get on here sooner and reply since I have been busy with work, family, and tending to my own wrestling matters. However, I am going to carve out some time to talk a little about the topic now. I doubt this will be the only bit of feedback I have to give but this will be pretty close to a full listing of my thoughts.

There are a lot of facets to this whole thing, however I am going to try and break down a couple of key reasons for my thoughts below. I will try to address most of the common statements I have heard regarding TENWAY / NUWAY. Ultimately, my major reasoning is that I believe adding another organization in TN will not benefit the state and will only hurt it in the long run.

I am by no means an AAU guy (or TNAAU guy), if anything I am a USA Wrestling guy but more than anything I just care about wrestling and particularly the kids that can benefit from the sport. That is what ultimately drives my thinking. I have been more than vocal in calling out the TNAAU in the past when I didn't feel the kids were given a fair shake but I have also volunteered my time on more than one occasion.

Why do we need another organization in TN?

This is the ultimate question that I can't seem to wrap my head around… I am sure someone associated with TENWAY will come in and tell me something that I don't postulate below but I am going to go ahead and lay some thoughts out for general consumption anyway.

First I will try and lay out a couple of the things I have heard or that have been stated here or on Facebook previously.

Bring in More Competition to TN

I think most anyone that has been around a while would tell you that the sanctioning organization makes little to absolutely no difference to those who wish to travel. If anyone thinks that we can get bigger / better events and competition in the state of TN simply by sanctioning them through NUWAY / TENWAY then they really don’t understand the nature of wrestling events. Even more established independent national level event organizations have already struggled to get traction with one event in the state of TN. Unfortunately I think that there is a fallacy of thought going on here.

It doesn't matter if the event is AAU, USAW, NUWAY, or independent; those who want to travel will do so if the tournament is worth it. Worth it will come down to several things but ultimately it usually comes down to two key factors: 1) the competition needs to be good and 2) the event needs to be run well. Item #1 is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy and is what really requires the work. Once you can get good competition in then you have something you can build from. I can promise you that I have never checked to see what organization sanctioned a tournament before traveling there if we were sure the competition was good. I can say the same for many others I know in the travel wrestling community.

Eliminate Out-of-State Wrestlers

As I seem to remember this was one of the first things that the TENWAY folks were championing on the Facebook for TN Youth Wrestling. I seem to remember them making a big deal how their first event would be a TN state tournament for TN wrestlers only. It would seem they changed their tune on that rather quickly since I know non-TN residents competed in the tournament and that stipulation was removed from the flyer. So was this not that important to the group? Do they just not have a clear vision of what they want to accomplish with this organization? Anyway not sure what to make of those claims. I won't digress into how short-sighted, selfish, and blatantly stupid some of those desires are… that is an argument for a different time.

More Competitive Opportunities

Another reason that has been bandied about is that they are just trying to provide more competitive opportunities for kids in TN. Now in general that is something I can actually get behind in theory. However, let's think through the story there… do we really think that there aren't enough opportunities for kids to compete when we factor in TNAAU events and those in surround states that many choose to attend? How many of you have really felt that you couldn't find enough opportunities to compete? I know that isn't an issue that most in my club have ever experienced. Heck, I think that we often have our kids competing too much as it is… that is once again a whole other topic that I don't have time to go into now. Suffice it to say that there is a school of thought that believes we need to be careful how much kids compete in relation to how much they practice / learn at most of their younger ages.

But let's go ahead and say that we do think that more competitive options are needed in TN. I have heard some say that they plan to run events concurrently through the TNAAU season and not attempt to compete with the TNAAU. While that sounds just lovely, we need to think through the implications there. Let's say TNAAU continues to run events on Saturday and TENWAY begins to run events on Sunday. Some will say that it gives people more choices and opportunities and that can't possibly be a bad thing right? Well I am going to go ahead and layout what I think is the most likely scenario here. People will eventually choose between attending TNAAU events on Saturday and TENWAY events on Sunday. Only a very small percentage of families are hardcore enough to wrestle multiple events on one weekend and even then they won't do it every weekend. So ultimately people will need to choose between events / organizations. That won't do anything but weaken the competition in each event. This will carry on until one organization succeeds and another fails or we simply continue to struggle with a weakened wrestling structure in the state.

I have seen this state back when there were three competing organizations. That wasn't a fun time and I hope we don't ever go back to that. I will state that sometimes pain is necessary to grow but I am not convinced we are really at a point where that is necessary. Ultimately this state doesn't contain enough wrestlers or volunteers to split our efforts. We are still a small community of volunteers working to continue to grow wrestling around the state… in-fighting does little good at this stage. A lot of progress has been made over the last decade or so in solidifying the state and improving our events. We are a long way away from the state tournaments that didn't end until after midnight or having multiple guys claiming state championships due to multiple organizations (just look how many people complain about the TSSAA structure and that is at least with one organization).

I would hate to see that undone even if it was for some future good… I just think we could achieve that good (as I can only assume those pushing TENWAY have some good in mind, I would hope there aren't hidden, ulterior motives) without the damage.

Not Looking to Compete / Why not Work with TNAAU?

I have talked to a few others and done what I would call very cursory look into NUWAY several years ago. I really can't see any huge differences between NUWAY and AAU from a wrestling perspective… perhaps where the money goes but I haven't really dug into that. From my perspective USA Wrestling is the only organization where at least some portion of the profits at the organizational level get funneled back into our top level athletes (and trust me I make little comment on just how large a percentage that is). However that is also another argument that I don't intend to get into right now either.

So as I sit here and think through the motivation for starting NUWAY in TN I can really only come up with one question… why not work with the TNAAU organization? I know that they have said publicly that they are not looking to compete with TNAAU… it is hearsay on my part but I have been told that is not how some of the private conversations have gone… including with NUWAY leadership.

I can only assume that one of the main driving reasons for some people wanting to get TENWAY started is because they have an issue with how things have been done with / by the TNAAU. I can get behind that… I have publicly voiced my issues in the past. That said, the best way I can see to fix issues and move forward as a state is to work within the already existing structure to make things better. I do believe that one of the best ways for any organization to get better is through constructive criticism. I do believe that most of the leadership of the TNAAU believe this same thing and would welcome the feedback. Of course, not all feedback is actually good. Just because one person (or group of people) believe one thing, it doesn't mean it is for the best… the leadership needs to make some of those decisions based on their historical experience, perspective on health of the overall organizations, and what they think will actually benefit the full group of kids. Of course, if you don't believe that the board members are doing those things then you still have recourse… get involved in the organization yourself. Convince enough others that your issues are important and your views are correct and then I am sure that you can get voted in as a region director and can begin to influence the board. The democratic process does really work there… you just have to be willing to do the work and probably get very little benefit (trust me most of the board members give far more than they could ever recoup when it comes to their efforts with TNAAU).

I say all of that because I believe that working within the existing organization is the best answer to help move wrestling forward in the state. Working against each other might eventually lead to benefits for the state but there will be plenty of pain between now and then. Why go through that when we can get the same or better results faster by working together? If someone can convince me of the intrinsic values of NUWAY over TNAAU then feel free to have at it. However, if I was really going to push that argument I would be making a push to get the entire state working under USA Wrestling. I think that many of the reasons the current TNAAU leadership went with AAU back in the day have now been minimized and I could make a good argument why it would be beneficial for the state to move to USA Wrestling. If you look around TN most of the states around us are primarily USA Wrestling and we might do better drawing competition if all the states were sanctioned similarly… of course I already made my point about people traveling regardless of the sanctioning organization earlier so the reasoning there isn't enough to make the switch… I believe it is all small reason.

The Folkstyle vs Freestyle Debate

Since many people view me as a USAW guy (and rightly so I do suppose) I will go ahead and touch on this (but it won't be my full thoughts). Personally, I prefer to see folkstyle events to wrap as close to the high school state tournament as possible. Of course when you factor in national events this moves out at least a few weeks to a month given how much later some other state tournaments end. Having some folkstyle national events is a good thing in many ways so I won't complain about those… I have often encouraged many of our wrestlers to attend those events.

All of that said, I believe it is better for kids to go ahead and get converted over to freestyle and greco-roman much sooner than many do. Of course there are lots of reasons for this from my end. Suffice it for now to say that I think it benefits the wrestlers long-term in many ways.

That said, there is certainly an ever increasing trend of seeing coaches and organizations pushing folkstyle deeper and deeper into the spring and summer and cutting into the freestyle and greco-roman opportunities. There are a lot of reasons for this but it truly saddens me to see this trend continuing. I don't worry too much about TENWAY in this regard because they will just be another group headed down that pathway… those that understand the benefits of the international styles will continue to do their part, regardless of what organizations like TENWAY or others do.

I can't tell you how many of our most successful wrestlers (and I don't care how you define success, off or on the mat, it fits either way) have commented how much they enjoyed both the international styles and the competition they found in them. That included getting to compete against the best in the state as most of them stepped into the international styles rather than hanging around in folkstyle, the best in the SE, and the best nationally on Schoolboy, Cadet, and Junior teams or Fargo and UWW (FILA back in the day) Cadet / Junior Nationals. Too much success and fun found in the skills and competition found in those styles. Heck our own club has already generated one USA World Team member and I can't wait to see who our first Olympian will be! I hope most other clubs around have kids dreaming of those goals.

None of that really is a driving reason for my thoughts on TENWAY.

Wrapping Up

So there are the majority of my thoughts. Take them for what they are worth… simply the thoughts of one coach down in an often over-looked portion of the state who simply cares a lot about the sport and even more about the kids. I hope none of the TNAAU leadership minds what I have stated here as I have probably overstepped by bounds since I am not a member of their leadership. Similarly, I don't necessarily represent TWF leadership on this topic although I believe they would match many of my thoughts. These are just my personal thoughts, and should be taken as such. I doubt that they will have much bearing but I felt that I needed to put them out there since I have specifically been called out. I am happy to continue this conversation here but only in a thoughtful and beneficial way. Folks are also welcome to e-mail me as they should have no issue finding my e-mail address. As I am sure you can tell from reading this, I have given these types of things much thought and it will take logical and fact based arguments to sway my opinion but I am always open to facts and logic. I am sure that I have missed some of the things I meant to talk about in the process of writing this but I hope this covers the majority of it.

 

By the way shaner10, before you go about specifically calling me out you might want to get your facts straight… you probably have no clue what high school I attended but I assure that you were wrong in what you inferred. Nothing I hate more than people spouting off incorrect facts.

You talked about events planned in Memphis in one post but just one post up from that you mentioned that you only had one event planned… seems you don't have your story quite together yet… you are still getting started to perhaps I shouldn't expect good organization yet. Not sure who you believe you have in Memphis that is prepared to sign up to help you.

Great post Garrett, I couldn't agree more!!

[baskinrobins]

Not pretending that I have the answers or the solution.

 

A couple of items to consider: 

 

1. TN has as many NCAA qualifiers as Finland this year.  We have not produced a NCAA All-American since 2008.  In my opinion, TN has regressed since the early 2000s. (Leen,Marable,Keller,Simpson,Ward,Yost,..ect)  Are we sure our youth system that is currently in place is actually doing its job?  The primary goal should be to increase the number of kids that are exposed to the sport and develop lifelong wrestlers.  A secondary goal is to provide the structure to turn kids into national caliber wrestlers.  I don’t mean 1-2 kids. 

http://www.flowrestling.org/article/53013-ncaa-s-by-the-numbers#.WMBIqE0rKzc

 

 

1. To quote ghouse: “ I really can't see any huge differences between NUWAY and AAU from a wrestling perspective… perhaps where the money goes but I haven't really dug into that.â€

This is a huge difference!

 

To be clear, I am not part of TENWAY, AAU, or USA wrestling, but I was told that NUWAY state organizations return almost 100% of the profit to the state.  A gentleman from a NUWAY state(MI) once told me that every college team in his state gets a 20k check at the end of the year from NUWAY. They even used NUWAY money to start two new college teams.  The money is used to support out-of-state travel for middle and HS teams.  Is it true? I don’t know, but I think it would be worth looking into.  I believe that USA wrestling takes money from youth tournaments around the country and uses it to fund college regional training centers.  Why should the Ohio State RTC get money from TN youth tournaments?  I think TN should take the Trump approach and worry about its kids first. 

 

I think we all have a lot to learn before we dismiss a new organization.    

 

 

 Jimmy 

[buckeyeintn]

WrestlingGod,

 

You are aware that TN teams can compete in those tournaments if they get the invitation correct?  The only limitations for TN teams comes in the form # of dates / tournaments and one major travel restriction.  That travel restriction limits each TN team to one trip outside of the state borders that is in excess of a certain amount of miles round-trip.  I want to say it was 300 miles one-way but I can't remember now off the top of my head as it has been a while since I had to dig into that rule.  Heck, the TSSAA has even let teams use a straight line as the crow flies measurement over mileage on roads in the past.

 

What that ultimately means is that any TN team with the a)wrestlers to get themselves invites and b)funds to make the trips, can do so.  However, they can only do one such trip which probably is plenty for most of TN.

 

Just wanted you to be aware that the opportunity is there.

 

The problem with the Tennessee rule is that you must compete out of state to qualify for the big events .In other words, Tennessee offers no qualifying events for high school or jr. high kids. Not only that but if you wrestle varsity (even if there is no match that week) you may not compete for a non tssaa event. Jr. varsity can do whatever but if they wrestle aau or usa or whatever, They are ineligible for the next  scheduled varsity  match. It would take 2 events A) Qualifier Invitational to become eligible and get the invite. I have always said TN has to loosen it up with travel restrictions.   

[TeamTN]

My Name is Darrel Lauderdale and I was one of the core group of individuals who started the TeamTN AAU program.  We were all high school coaches. Our reason was simple: we were looking for a way to build our feeder programs without costing parents a fortune. I have explained some of this on the TeamTN FB page so I will not go in to great detail on CoachT. We knew if we were ever going to close the gap that between us an Chattanooga, Nashville, and Memphis on the high school level we had to start building a solid foundation on the youth level.  Our feeder programs. Through trial and error, to many errors it seemed at times, we grew. We did not grow because of an active sales and recruiting program Some joined us because they liked what we were offering and some joined us because they were disgruntled with another organization.

 

First of all, I am not a paid employee of AAU or TeamTN and never have been.  Some people involved with sports and AAU make really good money but that is not the way we set TeamTN up.  We set this organization up so that the host of the events, our clubs, their and our wrestlers, keep the money and use it as they see fit. Again, Our focus, which I have never lost focus is on our , your, feeder programs. WE WERE AND FOR THE MOST PART STILL ARE A GRASSROOTS WRESTLING ORGANIZATION. Thus the Motto: "AAU Wrestling...Where the path begins." 

 

We grew somewhat quick. 1st year we hosted 4 tournaments and today, I believe there will be over 40 AAU Events held in Tennessee for our wrestlers. These events include beginners tournaments, open tournaments, elementary dual matches and tournaments, Middle School open tournaments traditional tournaments, Middle Dual Matches, and Dual Tournaments. 

 

As the Tennessee kids improved, some of our better kids, their coaches, and their parents began to look for tougher competition.  So we began to sponsor and then promote kids and teams to attend national tournaments like: Tournament of Champions in Ohio, National Middle School Duals in Iowa, National  Elementary Duals in Kingsport, the Spring Youth Nationals (which we began in Tennessee in the hopes the event would draw tougher competition to Tennessee for our wrestlers to face, the Disney Duals, the AAU Ironman World Championships, AAU Junior Olympics, the Frosh/Soph National Duals in Iowa, these are to just name a few.

 

We have sent or helped sponsor 6 teams to the Junior Olympics; 14 Teams to the National Middle School Duals, 29 Teams to the National Elementary Duals; 5 teams to the Disney Duals.

 

We have help pay for kids to attend  al the above mention tournaments as well as the Ohio Tournament of Champions (we used to reimburse the kids entry fee that went to compete there); AAU Spring Youth Nationals (we used to pay the entry fee or part of the entry fee for r kids who wanted to attend this event

 

Number of Wrestlers we have helped send to National Events, now this is a briefly done count is somewhere around 1,800.  Since we began this organization back around the year 2000, and since we did not help send anyone during our first 4-5 years because the interest was there, we have really come on.  This is due to the fact more kids and more coaches and more parents are wanting to find better competition and because their kids  have the skill level to compete against the top kids from any where.

 

Sending kids to events like the National Middle School duals is not cheap. Since 2006 we have sent and help pay for 14 Middle National Dual Teams.  In 2006, we paid the entry fee of $650 I believe.  That is what we could afford to pay. 11 years later, 2015, we sent 2 Middle School teams and coaching staff, TN Orange and TN Grey.  Cost was over $13,000 (including bus, room, cloth, awards, entry fees, special dinners) It was our best showing ever with TN Orange finishing 2nd in the Gold Medal Bracket and TN Grey finishing 7th in the Silver Medal Bracket  The same year, 2015 we sponsored 3 teams to the Elementary Duals. TeamTN paid out a little over $4,000 (again: entry fee, cloth, hotel rooms,)

 

The money taken in by TeamTN, I would say about 90-95% of it is spent on improving our sport in Tennessee. On sending teams and/or wrestlers to national event; to offering wrestling camps and clinics (Clarion Univ., Oklahoma Univ, have been here for camps sponsored by TeamTN); Wrestling referees programs to help recruit and train young officials and encourage these young officials to go and call high school matches); we have sponsored and helped fund the Tennessee Chapter of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame (usually each and every year; we have made donations to college wrestling programs; TeamTN has supplied clocks for the High school State Tournament in the past; we have donated our time and equipment to allow the TSSAA a look at what Track Wrestling can do; TeamTN has paid for Track Wrestling training Seminars (covering the cost of the developer of Track Wrestling to come in and train ANYONE who wanted to learn how to).... I have more to share and most of you that attend the region meetings already know most of this

 

Now, as far as our organization is not producing high level, college wrestlers.  Well, first of all any credit for a athlete to attain the level which you refer to needs to be given to the WRESTLER, THE COACH, THE TEAMMATES, AND THE PARENTS, NOT A WRESTLING ORGANIZATION.  Now, with that said, I just happen to be reviewing some results from a few National Tournaments from about 8-10 years ago or so  and the names that pooped out are the names of some TSSAA 2x, 3x, and 4x State Champions and several are wrestling on the college level and many SR's this year, several of them represented Tennessee at several National Events, are also headed to college.

 

As far as not producing any Kellers, Leens, or others that have been mentioned. Those guys were quite special and had a tremendous support staff in place to help them.  However I believe there are some tremendous young men, who honored us by wrestling in our program, who have a shot of attaining the Leen, Keller, and Simpson level of success.  There is a very impressive group of Middle School kids getting ready to take the high school level by storm.  In fact, some of our former TeamTN state champions made impressive runs at this years TSSAA States.  I sat or stood there cheering them on.  Not because I wanted to shout out "hey look, that guy there wrestled for TeamTN" or claim TeamTN is the reason he is so good". NOPE, no WAY.  I cheered them on because I got a chance to meet those guys and found out what tremendous young men they are. 

 

Several years ago when Mike Hatcher was the head of the TWF, we sat down and worked out a way we could work together.  To do what was right for Tennessee Wrestling. Not National but Tennessee Wrestling.  We each got the blessing form our National Offices and now people are referring to our partnership as something they want their state to model after.  

 

Ben Bowers is now the Leader of the TWF/USA Wreslting in Tennessee and our relationship has only grown stronger and closer.  TeamTN and the TWF agree, its about working together and making Tennessee Wrestling Better!  TeamTN could offer Olympic Style wrestling seasons and/or offer Folstyle Wrestling season for high school age groups but, we have an agreement (solidified by our word and a handshake) that TeamTN will focus on k-8 Folkstyle and the TWF will focus on Olympic Styles.. Now we jointly run an event together the Tennessee Ironman Tournament.  First one of its kind, AAU and USA Wrestling working together, in the United States.  The money raised goes to help get the kids to Fargo (I believe this is correct).  The Folkstyle part is AAU and the Olympic Styles are USA.  

 

THE BEST IS YET TO COME BY THE WAY!  HUGE ANNOUNCEMENTS COMING!!

 

Well, this post has been long enough.  I will say this, Don Barnett is finalizing the financial numbers from this years TeamTN State Tournament and will share them   Those of you who like to claim you know here the money goes are going to be in for a big surprise in how much money TeamTN Wrestling CLUBS made off that tournament. Clubs were offered  chance to work tables, rent mats, etc and were paid out of fund raised at the state event.

 

I was informed that the site rental for the venues was around $5,500 plus an additional fee of a $1,000 for clean up.  Add in the funds that were paid out to clubs who managed tables and worked tables and the cost of officials and housing for officials, the state event was not cheap but it was worth it  The room and mat space make the event so much more customer friendly.

 

Of course, you would already have an idea about past state tournament finances that had you attended your region meeting and seen the financial reports.  We are a true 501c3 and fall under the National AAU umbrella.

Edited March 10, 2017 by TeamTN

[TeamTN]

AAU offers a great deal of for members:

1. 10 million dollar liability insurance coverage

2. $14 or $16 Added Benefit membership card (AB card carries the AAU insurance at non-AAU events, like at wrestling camps   Easy to understand why some youth sports programs encourage their members to get the AAU Added benefit card as well as their organizations card because our insurance is better)

3. AAU Club Fees: 3 levels: Level 1: $30 (insurance coverage for your facility); Level 2: $60 (Insurance facility coverage ply you can now host events); Level 3: $300 (same benefits as Level 2 only Level 3 clubs are now a 501c3 Non Profit group under the National AAU umbrella.  Which means any donations to your club can be a tax write off for the donor);

4. AAU League Option (which is what TeamTN Wrestling is). for a fee of $385 (i believe that is correct) we can establish a wrestling league that is state wide.  If a club joins our league, they get the same benefits as a level 2 Club and can host "League events"  TeamTN pays this fee so our members do not have to pay the club fee!

5. Fee for joining our League is $25 per club.  They join on the TNYOUTH WRESTLING web site.  For their fee of $25 they receive League membership, AAU insurance coverage, can his a league event, they get a Team Web Site thru sports engine, they get a free phone App.  Our League can run from Sept 1 through August 31.  1 year.  

6. AAU Card is a Multi-Sport Card: Meaning, if you a registered AAU Wrestling Card holder you do not have to pay for another card to participate in any of the other 40 some odd sports AAU offers.

7. as a member of the TeamTN Wrestling League you have a voice in the organization.  Regional Meetings are held 2x a year and are announced on our FB page, our Web Page, and email announcements go out through AAU and our Sports engine page.

8.  AAU will mass email your Tournament flyers, at no charge, to every member of our national wrestling group.

9. Each AAU Wrestling card holder receive a free Digital Copy of W.I.N. magazine (emailed to your email address of choice)

 

 

These are just some of the benefits AAU offers our members.

Edited March 10, 2017 by TeamTN

[TeamTN]

One last comment that was made by the person who believes that the quality of wrestling has worsened because of the lack of wrestlers going on to the college level, here are a few more of my thoughts. I FIRMLY DISAGREE!  

 

I think there has been no time in the history of Tennessee have there been so many highly qualified and skilled wrestling coaches leading high school programs in Tennessee. I could tell by watching the TSSAA States this year and observing so many scrambles and so many close matches during the earlier rounds of the event.

 

Programs like Bradley, Cleveland, Father Ryan, Baylor, Christian Brothers, Soddy Daisy, Clarksville, (just to name a few) have always had outstanding coaches and their history of success there proves that.  But, look at all the other programs that have appeared on the scene who are battling year in and year out and are closing in on those long standing wrestling powers mentioned before: Halls, Beech, Wilson Central, Independence, Science Hill, Tennessee High, Mount Juliet, Blackman, Pigeon Forge, Boyd Buchanan, Summit, Page, Greeneville, Greenbrier, Arlington, Heritage, Alcoa, (these are just off the top of my head) are all on the upswing and are all lead buy not only quality coaches but quality Men).  The future of Tennessee Wrestling is bright and I am excited about the future.

 

As far as Tennessee Wrestlers going on to wrestle in college and qualifying for national tournament and earning National Honors:

 

Nate Croley is a 2x All American from Cumberland University. Finished 3rd this year (wrestled for me as a member of our Pigeon Forge AAU Wrestling Program and for our Middle School Team) by the way, Congrats again Nate!

 

Other names that come Boykin (UTC), Boykin (US Olympic Training Center), Fuller (West Point), Debien (UTC), Big Kramer (Lindenwood), Sutherland (Old Dominion), Sammy Evans (UTC); Blake  Ridenour (ALL AMERICAN-Newberry); Trey Chalifoux West Point); Michael Murphy (Univ. of VA); Chad Solomon (UTC); TJ Hicks (UTC); Ran Parker (former wrestler playing football at West Point); Adam Connell (Naval Academy); Micheal Binns (?); Tucker Russo (Rheinhart), Tate Holmes (Rheinhart); Luke Mullin (UTC); Ben Stacey (UTC); Cody Davis (King College); Goforth (King College); to just name a few and I am sure I have missed several.  All these wrestlers mentioned are former National Team Members!!

 

We have more kids placing at National events today than we ever had before.  Why? First it goes to we have more kids who want to go and compete against the best wrestlers and we have more qualified coaches who have instilled in their wrestlers the tools they need to compete on that level.  Not only compete but to win and or place at these national tournaments.

Edited March 10, 2017 by TeamTN

[YOUTHCOACH16]

Not pretending that I have the answers or the solution.

 

A couple of items to consider: 

 

1. TN has as many NCAA qualifiers as Finland this year.  We have not produced a NCAA All-American since 2008.  In my opinion, TN has regressed since the early 2000s. (Leen,Marable,Keller,Simpson,Ward,Yost,..ect)  Are we sure our youth system that is currently in place is actually doing its job?  The primary goal should be to increase the number of kids that are exposed to the sport and develop lifelong wrestlers.  A secondary goal is to provide the structure to turn kids into national caliber wrestlers.  I don’t mean 1-2 kids. 

http://www.flowrestling.org/article/53013-ncaa-s-by-the-numbers#.WMBIqE0rKzc

 

 

1. To quote ghouse: “ I really can't see any huge differences between NUWAY and AAU from a wrestling perspective… perhaps where the money goes but I haven't really dug into that.â€

This is a huge difference!

 

To be clear, I am not part of TENWAY, AAU, or USA wrestling, but I was told that NUWAY state organizations return almost 100% of the profit to the state.  A gentleman from a NUWAY state(MI) once told me that every college team in his state gets a 20k check at the end of the year from NUWAY. They even used NUWAY money to start two new college teams.  The money is used to support out-of-state travel for middle and HS teams.  Is it true? I don’t know, but I think it would be worth looking into.  I believe that USA wrestling takes money from youth tournaments around the country and uses it to fund college regional training centers.  Why should the Ohio State RTC get money from TN youth tournaments?  I think TN should take the Trump approach and worry about its kids first. 

 

I think we all have a lot to learn before we dismiss a new organization.    

 

 

 Jimmy 

 

 

Let me address and answer a few of the things you were "told" and a few of your assumptions. 

 

Im  not sure how long its been since you have attended the Aau state or if you ever have but its quite the event. Its held at the same facility as the Tssaa state on 12 mats because we have grown so large not many other venues can hold us.

As far as the system not working and producing upper level college wrestlers I think you need to know the facts. 1st. ur current system we have in place hasn't been around long enough for you to see major College results. Kids such as Debien, Kramer, Sutherland, Chalifoux , Murphy, Russo, Parker and others wrestling in college only had a few years of Aau once the entire state came under one umbrella and they are now freshmen and sophomores in College. You mentioned some of our all time greats  in comparison but you aren't looking at the fathers/coaches they had in place and support to make them better. I can assure you none of those kids got to the level they were at wrestling in any of the local youth leagues that existed when they were youth wrestlers. They had to travel all over the country to get any competition. Ive been fortunate to coach all of our youth elementary national teams and a few middle school teams since we joined  up with the Aau from Chattanooga and I can assure you 100% without a doubt the youth wrestling in Tennessee is hands down 10x better than its ever been. We were a joke when I first started taking teams to the national tournaments to be honest and now we are in the top 10 every year at the national duals and have placed as high as 5th. The last 3-4 years the only teams that have beaten us are top 3 teams in the country. Both Iowa and Pennsylvania's coaches came up to me last year and told me they used to love seeing Tennessee in their pool or bracket but not anymore. They are amazed at how we have improved in such a short time with such a small wrestling base. We have 20 + kids right now in Tennessee that place in every national tournament they go to. Even back in the heyday of the kids you mentioned that wasn't happening.  The new crop of kids coming out of high school have gone through our complete cycle. Kids such as Boykin, Evans, Knox Fuller,Landers, Renieche  ect..Ask people who actually have experienced it and see what they tell you.  Look at what our kids are doing on the national level in high school. Back in the "heyday" we were lucky if 1-2 kids could place in the national tournaments.

In the old days we had numerous organizations governing youth wrestling in the state and you were lucky if the best kids ever even wrestled one time per year. We implemented a tour of Tennessee with each region hosting a Top 100 tournament each year with those tournaments accumulating points to go towards end of the year awards and a belt winner for each age group. Now with everyone under one umbrella and all the best kids wrestling each other 3 times in the Top 100's and regions and states the best kids are all wrestling each other 4-5 times per year. In addition to this we also hold an all star state duals where each region picks and all star team and wrestles the other regions in state dual tournament. Here again we have the best kids wrestling each other .

As far as money goes Im glad you explained what you "were told "so we can highlight our strongest point  with facts. The #1 reason we went with Aau and not another organization is because of the cost effectiveness and bang for the buck for the parents. First off Aau is a non profit organization and Nuway is not. They can tell you whatever they want to but the fact of the matter is they can do whatever they want with the money they raise. Our money goes back into the kids plain and simple. Ill let Lauderdale give specifics but just think about your comment about Nuway giving 20,000 to every college team in Michigan. That's a lot of money that the parents shelled out if they are actually giving that much money every year.I cant fathom having that much money in our budget and don't see how its possible unless Nuway is giving money away they collected from all the other Nuway states to support Michigan wrestling. An Aau card is 14$ for the wrestler and coaches. With that we get 10x the insurance Nuway and usa offer. Our tournaments are way less expensive to enter and the money stays within our state organization and teams in our state . It costs $25 for a team to join Aau and they get 10,000,000 in liability insurance, compare that to Nuway and Usa. They also get a coaches pass, meal ticket for the state and a free website to use among other things. Wrestling is expensive for parents and especially those that are trying to pursue a higher level of competition. I can assure you they appreciate not paying 2-3x the amount they would with other organizations.Coaches appreciate not paying as much and our teams appreciate being able to get the majority of the money they earn at tournaments and what does go back to the state is used 100% on our own kids. All this financial information is available for anyone that wants to attend their regional Aau meeting unlike non tax exempt organizations that can do whatever they want with the money. Darrell will give a breakdown of our state tournament and where all the revenue goes in a follow up post. Maybe it will open peoples eyes who really don't understand what it takes to put on an event of that magnitude and how all the local clubs profit from it that volunteer to help.

 

Now in reference to your last comment ," I  think TN should take the Trump approach and worry about its kids first ". If none of my facts above show you that we are worried about our kids and only our kids then I don't know what else to tell you. Our money goes to our host teams and what goes back to the state organization is used for our kids and nothing else. We chose the most cost effective route for our parents and coaches. Our tournaments cost less, our league costs less and with more benefits and our insurance coverage for wrestlers, coaches, teams, and host schools is undeniably better. This is all public information and can be seen by anyone that wants to see it. Several of us have been approached multiple times by other organizations and we took the high road and did whats best for our state and our wrestling families as opposed to going with another organization  that we could have benefitted from personally.

 

In closing... back to your post about kids not producing  like the ones you mentioned. If we have more kids wrestling now than ever. We have more kids winning and placing in the elite national level youth tournaments than ever. We have our national teams doing hands down better than teams of the past where is the disconnect happening? If there truly is a disconnect I would look to the middle school leagues and our high school system. We have three divisions in high school and a lot of the best kids don't wrestle each other anymore. In Aau there is one division with over 123 teams all competing against each other multiple times per year. a clear example would  be in the Chattanooga area we have a Tssaa governed middle school league that is very restrictive. Our kids grow up wrestling 40-50 matches per year against the best kids in the state and then all of a sudden they get into middle school and they get 12 matches against pretty poor competition to be honest. Then those same kids go to high school and maybe they are in the small school division or wrestle for a public school whose coach wont wrestle outside his division. Now they go through high school without competing against the best in the state.  No truer example of this can be found than in the Aau state duals I referenced earlier. Chattanooga's elementary age teams k-5th grade have won every state duals tournament and have never lost a single match in 7 years. Those same kids a few years later are routinely getting beaten in the middle school state duals due to the fact that they have gone through 3 years of middle school   wrestling in their Tssaa middle school league getting 10-12 matches a year. While the areas that don't wrestle in the Tssaa controlled middle school leagues and continue to wrestle through the AAU instead get 4-50 matches a year against the best and they pass up the kids you have been forced to revert backwards by restrictive rules.  So the last thing we need to do is have another organization come in and split our state and revert back to what it took 20 years to get rid of.

Edited March 10, 2017 by YOUTHCOACH16

[TeamTN]

The TeamTN 2012 National Middle School Dual team Roster:

Sean Sesnan

Ryan McElhaney

Gaven Hutchins

Matthew Keita

Mike Murphy

Trey Chalifoux

Emory Holcomb

Nick Volgelpohl

Tucker Russo

Kaleb Rippy

Trevor Rippy

Avery Shrum

Danyon Edens

Ryne Shepard

Ty Hammons

Tate Holmes

Jay Roberts

Ben Stacey

Sammy Evans

Triston Bianist

 

2013 National Middle School Duals Line up

TeamTN Blue (team went 3-5 over the 2 days of wrestling)

jack Newton

Michael Moultry

Braden Palmer

Gabe Rogers

Landon Fowler

Bridger Johnson

Austin Plumlee

Trevor Rippy

Ryan Brown

Christian Salter

Seth Eachus

Austin Matthews

Anders Heald

Dean Caadzeck

Antonio Herrera

Preston Parks

Walker Daughtery

Sam McNelly

Greg Vigil

Nickl Boykin

 

TeamTN Red (finished 7th in the Silver Pool Bracket; finished 2nd to Iowa Black in Pool Competition) Team went 6-2 in 2 days of wrestling

Robby Griggs

Trey Hicks

Job Dooley

TJ Hicks

Ryan McElhaney

Colton Landers

Knox Fuller

Gavin Hutchins

Brock Herring

Dewey Pendelton

Matthew Sells

Zack Wilkins

Logan Fusion

Caleb Eachus

Austin Downing

Dean Czadzeck

Dawson Cox

Hunter Fortner

Cameron Tompkins

Gran Brace

Joshua Ortiz

Sammy Evans

 

2014 national Duals Line-up

TeamTN Blue

Wesley Devaney

Jeffrey Gross

Luke Dezember

Dillon Pendley

Logan Witeside

Chase Brown

Nathan Shields

Nick Runge-Gold

Luke Story

Eric Beecham

Owen Schnieder

Zach Duncalf

Ryan Brown

Chase Diehl

Ben Rondestvedt

Hunter Winters

Jaxson Whittaker

Mason Loupe

Elija Lawson

Ethan Olinger

Logan Greenway

Luke Champion

 

TeamTN Red Line-up (2nd place in Pool Competition. Defeated South Dakota, Kansas, North Carolina and MSND All Stars and losing only to Iowa Black) Finished 3rd in the Silver Medal Bracket

Christian Isbell

Noah Hurst

Braden Palmer

Michael Moultry

Job Dooley

Cody Matthews

Kyle Burns

Mason Reinich

Austin Atchley

Alex Atchley

Trevor Rippy

Christian Salter

Nyzaya Vincent

Matthew Maxwell

Preston Parks

Max Grayson

Kyle Smith

Keegan Jones

Grant Brace

Thomas Roberts

[TeamTN]

2015 National Middle School Dual Teams  Finished 3rd in their pool Competition  Defeated Wyoming, Montana, and North Dakota going 3-5 for the event)

 

TeamTN Grey  

Eli Clemmons  4-4

Braxton Mann

Emory Taylor

Hunter Borders  Copper Medal 4-3

Tyler Seeley

Joseph Gaines  4-4

Kole Kraus

Dillon Pendley

Joseph Frye

Dalton Cockmen

Jared Harter

Cameron Henderson  Copper Medal 5-3 

Jacob Haney  Silver Medal  7-1

Logan Sparks

Trevor South

Isacc Goncalves

Steven Weist

Montana Doty  Copper  4-3

Jake Knaff  Bronze  6-2 

Zackary Garringer  Copper  5-3

Bradley Williams  Copper Medal  4-3

Ryan Jackson

Jackson Clevelenger went  4-4 

 

TeamTN  Orange (1st place in their Pool; Defeated Montana, South Dakota, Alabama, Nebraska, Wyoming, Iowa Hawks, Polaris IL Elite, and lost only to Iowa Black in the Finals, finishing 2nd overall)

Christian Isbell  Gold Medal  8-0

Cooper Flynn Bronze Medal 6-2

Garrett Bowers Silver Medal  7-1

Noah Hurst  Silver Medal   7-1

Tyler Seeley

Brayden Palmer  CopperMedal 4-3

Luke Dzember  Silver Medal 7-1

Robbie Griggs  Copper Medal  5-3

Logan Whiteside  Bronze Medal  6-2

Jerimah Herron

Auston Sweeney

Cullen Belcher  Copper  Medal 5-3

Isaac Goncalves

Trevor South

Steven Weist  4-4

Landon Fowler  Bronze Medal   6-2

Ryan Brown  Copper Medal  5-3

Trent Knight  4-4 

Wesley McCoy  Copper Medal  5-3

Kane Kleoudis  Silver Medal  7-1 

Ethan Rainey  Copper Medal  5-3

Michael Kramer went 6-2 

[baskinrobins]

That’s all great information.  It sounds like y’all are doing the right thing with AAU.  It sounds much better than what I know about USA wrestling.  That being said, I would still like to hear more about NUWAY.  Maybe we could get a NUWAY rep on here to tell us their “factsâ€.  I've only talked to one person about it, and it piqued my interest, to say the least.  I know that many of the Midwestern states have switched to NUWAY in the last 10 years, and I hear that it is going really well. I do believe that NUWAY is a non-profit organization as well, not that it matters.  It mostly just related to taxes.  People that work for non-profit organizations still are allowed to be paid- and paid very well at that. 

 

 

As it relates to the level of wrestlers being produced:

 

It’s good to hear that youth kids from TN are getting those opportunities that you speak of; it sounds like they are taking advantage of them as well.  

 

I’m always a little skeptical of using youth/high school national tournaments as a barometer of the states’ success.  Every tournament in the country now proclaims to be a nation tournament.  I love hearing that they are doing well at AAU national duals but if a state like Ohio has 7,000 NUWAY members, then how many of their best kids are actually going to AAU duals?  That is not meant to be a knock on your results- it sounds like you keep improving, so that is impressive in and of itself.

 

I see the same thing with NHSCA, Fargo, Flo, USA preseason/ postseason, FILA cadets, Dixie Nationals, Super 32… It is so watered down that college is the only true national tournament. It is the only way to objectively gauge results. We can talk about the strength of wrestling in TN compared to 15-20 years ago (the TSSAA state tournament does not look better to me), but we should really be trying to catch up with states like PA, OH, CA, and NJ. I trust that you think AAU will get us there. Maybe you are right, maybe the youth system is doing its job, and the middle/high school system is broken.  I would just be happy if we started producing 4-5 NCAA qualifiers every year.  

 

 

As it relates to the money:

 

From the NUWAY website: The founders of NUWAY have modeled this system after the Michigan Youth Wrestling Association (MYWA). MYWA is an organization that began 2001 with a mere 750 members and now has over 9,000 members. There are several factors that promoted growth in the state of Michigan. The first being is that a system of reinvesting or rewarding the membership was created. MYWA pays for entry fees for over 300 wrestlers each and every year to participate in national events. In addition, they supply each of the top 3 state place winners with custom national team singlets. Even more so, MYWA invests into protecting its college wrestling programs by providing financial support at many levels.

 

Will it hurt to learn more about this?  If it’s true that they are able to fund college programs, then maybe they have a business model that TN could adopt.  Better college programs = more former college wrestlers coaching within the state = higher level of wrestling. 

Anyways, I’m most just sparking debate.  Debate and competition lead to better products for our kids.  My son has been done for a while, but maybe my grandchildren will get a benefit for all the work it sounds like you are putting in.  Thanks for what you do.