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TeeterTot
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5 hours ago, Osage said:

Really? TPV management did not initiate any conversations? I thought it was pretty clear here in this thread (amongst the 4 or 5 of us) that they had? They may not have initiated contact with you / your player, but it was clear at the time that they were going after targeted Alliance kids, incentivizing them, with the hopes that others would follow.

And it worked.

 

TPV management DID NOT initiate the conversation.  I'm sure they were excited once they were approached, but TPV did not initiate.  If you mean TPV showed up at tons of high school and middle school and were seen there more than any other club did, then you can call that targeting 

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Teeter, I think you are playing with words here, being careful not to answer the question. This speaks more clearly than if you had been direct. Perhaps you feel like you need to do that to protect yourself / your player.

I trust the people I talked to back in September / October, which includes families on either side of the transaction: those that left, plus those that remained with their home clubs. They were approached, they did not initiate any conversations, but were glad to pursue and eventually accept the offers made to them. Then gladder still to spread the word to other high value kids. This wasn't a clandestine thing. 

Had TPV not done that... had they tried to compete with the kids that were already in the program, plus those who would organically have made the move without being pursued... TPV would not be seeing the success in the older ages so far this season that they have. 

And it worked. TPV can now roll into the next club season with this message:  "Look how much improvement we've seen in our teams! Our training really is different, and it produces results." 

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On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 8:53 AM, Osage said:

Really? TPV management did not initiate any conversations? I thought it was pretty clear here in this thread (amongst the 4 or 5 of us) that they had? They may not have initiated contact with you / your player, but it was clear at the time that they were going after targeted Alliance kids, incentivizing them, with the hopes that others would follow.

And it worked.

 

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 2:53 PM, clifford20 said:

C'mon Teeter.   Unless some parents lied to my face about it--they were contacted and incentivized.  Call it what you want--but they did what they had to do.     

I have asked players involved on both sides of it.... Alliance needs to step their game up on a couple of things, but it's not that different from what I have been told.  But they were probably just being kind.  (I am not an alliance person btw--just close to a lot of the people). 

 

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 2:56 PM, TeeterTot said:

TPV management DID NOT initiate the conversation.  I'm sure they were excited once they were approached, but TPV did not initiate.  If you mean TPV showed up at tons of high school and middle school and were seen there more than any other club did, then you can call that targeting 

 

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 1:14 PM, clifford20 said:

I will take your word for that.

 

On ‎3‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 10:06 AM, Osage said:

Teeter, I think you are playing with words here, being careful not to answer the question. This speaks more clearly than if you had been direct. Perhaps you feel like you need to do that to protect yourself / your player.

I trust the people I talked to back in September / October, which includes families on either side of the transaction: those that left, plus those that remained with their home clubs. They were approached, they did not initiate any conversations, but were glad to pursue and eventually accept the offers made to them. Then gladder still to spread the word to other high value kids. This wasn't a clandestine thing. 

Had TPV not done that... had they tried to compete with the kids that were already in the program, plus those who would organically have made the move without being pursued... TPV would not be seeing the success in the older ages so far this season that they have. 

And it worked. TPV can now roll into the next club season with this message:  "Look how much improvement we've seen in our teams! Our training really is different, and it produces results." 

 

Teeter, it’s fascinating that Osage thought “…. you were playing with words, being careful not to answer the questions, and not being direct when you offered an opinion about the Club volleyball marketplace and possible further player movement from Alliance to Mid TN and TPV. 

 

Osage and Clifford20 both responded with doubt, speculation and then probing questions.  They felt you were not being forthcoming and transparent in your statements of how players chose a different playing option for this season.  Clearly, this topic troubles those folks.

 

Since TT started the “New Club Team” thread in Oct 2017, the topic has received 186 replies (now 187).  Clifford20 has offered 44 replies and Osage 43 replies (87 combined – nearly half of all posts). 

 

Also, Clifford20 posted a follow-up comment immediately after Osage seventeen times / Osage posted a follow-up comment immediately after Clifford20 eighteen times.  They agree with each other’s comments frequently. Clifford20 agrees “totally or 100%” with Osage many, many times, like any good husband should with his wife.  

 

Maybe it’s just me but it feels a little like these two are sitting at home (in the City Between the Two Lakes) around the kitchen table trying to figure out why the Club volleyball landscape changed so quickly and so dramatically for their Club (Alliance) and one age group (this year's 16-1 REN team).  Just the other day, Clifford20 felt the need to state that “… I am not an Alliance person btw … ”.  If you are not, why would you feel the need to state that?  Are you trying to distance yourself from the club in the event your family leaves after all they have done for you?  Or was TPV a back-up plan for you in case the cards did not fall as you hoped?  That sounds about right now doesn't it? 

 

Also of interest, within TT’s New Club Team thread on:

 

7/3/2018 – Osage posted “If I were TPV, I would be trying hard to poach some of the kids off those 15’s and 16’s (Alliance) teams …”

 

7/3/2018 – Clifford posted “I can’t imagine any of the key players from the 15 or 16 (Alliance) teams leaving …”

 

8/27/2018 – Teeter Tot posted “There have been a lot of new players showing up for the TPV Sunday skills.  There could be a major change in the travel season scene next season …”

 

9/13/2018 – Clifford20 posted “… they (TPV) are offering free club to key Alliance players to lure them to their club …”

 

10/15/2018 – Osage posted “if I were TPV, I’d do everything possible to poach all the top Alliance kids.  The business model basically requires this …” and “… But if they can get some good Alliance kids, then they will REALLY improve.  Look at it through that perspective, and this all makes perfect sense …”

 

10/18/2018 – Clifford20 posted “the thing I hate is that it is going to break up a “top 20” team that has mostly been together for several years …”

 

10/19/2018 – 10/19/2018 – Teeter Tot posted “Alliance is losing a lot of traction with players …”

 

ALLIANCE VBC tryouts were held 10/20-21/2018

 

10/31/2018 – Osage posted “Congrats to TPV, who added some important older kids.  They have enough pieces in place to win at the Open level, and maybe even field the best 16s and 18s teams in the state.

 

11/2/2018 – Clifford20 posted “I would be interested in knowing why the 16’s kids left?  Did they not like their coach?  Unhappy with Alliance?  Facility?  I know a few of them are playing free ... is that the main reason?”

 

11/5/2018 – Teeter Tot posted “I don’t think a blanket statement can be made about why these young ladies decided to move.  I would say they all have their own reasons”

 

3/19/19 – Clifford20 posted “I don’t like how it all went down, but that’s life”. 

 

Now, I am not sure why Clifford20 and Osage (as Alliance parents) would lay out a road map for how TPV should go about building their Club at the expense of Alliance; congratulate TPV for executing a plan that worked pretty well; and now complain when TT offers that other players wished they had changed Clubs also? 

 

Further, why would they now:

    1. state they trusted the people they talked with last Sept & Oct 2018 on both sides - sounds like they were in the middle of it all at that time;

    2. critique TT’s opinion that Club dissatisfaction still exists with some that remained;

    3. complain about “how it all went down”; and

    4. dispute that others plan to consider their options for next Club season tryouts?

 TT - I believe you are "spot on" and feel that Clifford20 and Osage are the ones "playing with words here" about 90% of the time.

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Great research Apostle--yeah I am clearly the one with too much time on my hands.  Not sure who you think I am,  but you seem to think you know me and that I am Alliance parent? (I used to be)    I am not trying to distance myself at all.   Just communicating opinion.  It's all good.  I am sure that I am 100% wrong about everything, but I based my opinion on what people told me.  

As stated before, I am glad TPV is here.  They are doing a very good job.  I hope that they continue to do well, along with Alliance, Ethos and MidTn.  I love volleyball, want it to succeed in our state.   Don't think anything that I have said is crossing the line.  

 

 

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People can decide for themselves if they want to take my word or not, but I stand by what I say because I'm familiar with both clubs, a lot of the families, and the history of volleyball in the middle TN area.  I also stick by my statement that there will be a larger number of girls moving clubs next year than this past year.

As for all the clubs around, the exposure for volleyball is great but the top level girls need to be in the same club/team to compete Nationally.  There's enough talent in the area to have at least 2-3 teams finish in the top 10 Nationally if all of the top players played together.  13's at MidTN and 16's at TPV come to mind as teams that have done this or at least tried to move in this direction.  The rest of the ages seem to have the best players spread across Alliance, MidTN, and TPV (I haven't seen much of Ethos this year so no comment). 

Side note:  Several college coaches have been at TPV's 16-18 practices to watch some players.  The college power conferences have been represented well at those practices.  

   

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Thank you, Apostle, for taking the time to refresh the conversation. At this point, it seems like the thread has devolved into taking side and reading minds (I'm guilty, I admit, I'll try to be better), which may not be the best use of time. Maybe it’s not the worst thing if this conversation between the 4 of us has run its course. I am sorry, though, to hear you think I have vague or unclear on how I feel about these teams. If that is the case, it's only because I'm a terrible writer, so let me try again.

And unlike Clifford, I do have some time to kill, so bear with me.

I am from Chicago. My old club (Lions) is now part of 1st Alliance (not to be confused with Alliance). It's hard for me to be objective about TPV because I know 2 of Butler's 3 publicly named victims, plus a handful of the others that have not been publicly named (yes, those exist too). I have very strong feelings on this. If anything, I’ve held back on this forum, because I don't think any of you were there, so none of you can understand what it was like. Worse, it seems like some of you don’t even believe that anything happened, or if it did, it doesn’t matter. There I go mind-reading again.

The Chicago volleyball world is tight and very well connected. We all knew each other, everybody knew what was going on. If another national org, say, A5, Munciana, Northern Lights, Orlando, or pick a Texas or West Coast club, had set up a satellite in Tennessee, there'd be nothing to object to. But every dollar spent with TPV eventually sends some % to one of Rick Butler's accounts. Hence my bias, which I feel like I have been clear about. I'm also clear that none of this persuades anyone, our minds are already made up on this subject. 

Also note that none of this has anything to do with Alliance. 

So now that my biases are clear (I hope)... let’s flip the script. TPV is a business. Business isn't (or shouldn't be) personal. As a business, TPV has to make money. Apostle quoted me laying out the roadmap for how they should do that. Like TT, I don't regret or take back anything I wrote, and I didn't even mean to be provocative. This isn't rocket science. It shouldn't surprise anyone that it played out the way it did.

But to review…

TPV's goal is to be the top club around, correct? TPV (just like SPRI) doesn't sell "Join us and win!" Their message is "Join us and train!" But TPV training is supposed to be special, better than anyone else's. To a point, I buy this. For example, I think SPRI does a good job developing setters.

But you must post results: wins, losses, championships. TPV was in real danger last year when its teams weren't getting it done, particularly in head-to-head match-ups against peer teams at Alliance, K2, even Ethos and MidTN. Losing, by itself, isn't a problem, especially for a new club, but TPV set itself up to be a special case. But the competitive differences between TPV and peer teams last year weren't incremental... with the possible exception of that 13's group, last year's TPV teams outclassed by their peers, particularly vs. K2 and Alliance.

(Apostle, correct me if I have any of this wrong.)

If the end result of all that "better" training is that the kids can't compete, then what's the advantage to your training? The message fails, and eventually so does the business. TPV management couldn’t risk waiting 3, 4 or 5 years, while the coaches develop, couldn’t wait for the training to eventually differentiate. Volleyball parents tend not to see the Big Picture, and they don’t have that kind of attention span.

Solution: get better kids, however way you can. I don't see how TPV could have done anything different than they did. Business is not personal, you do what needs doing, within the bounds of the law and your own organizational standards. (Violate those, there's a problem.)

I don't agree with Clifford's earlier statement about feeling sorry that it went down the way it did. I have no feelings either way about it, it just "was". What feelings I do have are these: I hope that those who left their clubs are getting what they want, and I hope those who stayed are likewise pleased. I also hope that anyone is dissatisfied, either way, is honest with themselves about their expectations and their situation. However, I will continue to push back on dishonesty. Things like "No, this isn’t happening, everybody is playing under the same rules" when everyone knows otherwise... or where the messaging changes over time, like "No, that never happened" even though we all agreed at the time that it had. That feels like SPRI, and it needs to be called out.

What next? Seems clear… In the other thread, (Apostle, back to you), you’ve made the compelling case that TPV has surpassed Alliance in terms of National competitiveness, which makes TPV the preeminent club in middle Tennessee. They have the numbers (tons of teams, tons of kids), their bills are paid (right?), they have a couple of flagship teams (14’s, 16’s 18’s) to hang their hats on, to  point out how the training pays dividends… "Look how much we've improved in just one year!" There's nowhere to go but up. Limiting factor on growth will be # and quality of coaches, and that's a real thing that would keep me up at night if I were Dan.

Meanwhile, I expect Alliance to contract. Fewer teams, fewer coaches, but probably a net increase in competitiveness by seeing attrition at the lowest competitive levels, and those kids will continue to flow into TPV's gym. On the other hand, I agree with TT: I no longer expect Alliance to field Open-level competitive teams (IE, legitimate threats to make Gold in Qualifiers, large national events, top half at JO’s and AAU’s) every year, at every age division. There just aren’t enough Open-level players in the region.

And in the end, I expect (hope) that, so long as expectations are clear, agreed upon, and met, most folks (families, players, management, ownership at TPV, Alliance, MidTN, Ethos, other clubs) will be pleased with this. If people are happy with where they are at, the sport will grow.

By the way, I don't live near any lakes, but the Cumberland river is not far.

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On ‎3‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 9:22 AM, clifford20 said:

Great research Apostle--yeah I am clearly the one with too much time on my hands.  Not sure who you think I am,  but you seem to think you know me and that I am Alliance parent? (I used to be)    I am not trying to distance myself at all.   Just communicating opinion.  It's all good.  I am sure that I am 100% wrong about everything, but I based my opinion on what people told me.  

As stated before, I am glad TPV is here.  They are doing a very good job.  I hope that they continue to do well, along with Alliance, Ethos and MidTn.  I love volleyball, want it to succeed in our state.   Don't think anything that I have said is crossing the line.  

 

 

 

400+ posts over 14 yrs is a lot of opportunities.  Prior to the NEW CLUB TEAM thread, your TSSAA tournament updates and middle TN vball opinions were informative, interesting and positive – appreciated.  Since then, your player aging into peak Club vball years and over the past 6 mos with the Club/player changes, you are now a different type of “Clifford cat”. 

Details and a little household bias “out” you but there's no need to inform the world even if your status as a “used to be” Alliance parent still isn’t quite 100% accurate - volleyball is a small universe.  

You are not “100% wrong about everything”, but around the Mendoza line regarding being right.  Your lack of Club volleyball politics knowledge must be blissful and has you in a world that quite a few folks would love to live in.  And re: your March 20th post, yes, some of “the people you spoke with were probably just being kind”.

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On 3/29/2019 at 10:27 AM, TeeterTot said:

People can decide for themselves if they want to take my word or not, but I stand by what I say because I'm familiar with both clubs, a lot of the families, and the history of volleyball in the middle TN area.  I also stick by my statement that there will be a larger number of girls moving clubs next year than this past year.

As for all the clubs around, the exposure for volleyball is great but the top level girls need to be in the same club/team to compete Nationally.  There's enough talent in the area to have at least 2-3 teams finish in the top 10 Nationally if all of the top players played together.  13's at MidTN and 16's at TPV come to mind as teams that have done this or at least tried to move in this direction.  The rest of the ages seem to have the best players spread across Alliance, MidTN, and TPV (I haven't seen much of Ethos this year so no comment). 

Side note:  Several college coaches have been at TPV's 16-18 practices to watch some players.  The college power conferences have been represented well at those practices.  

   

 

TT, I’m not willing to wager (just my opinion), but I feel that there will be fewer upper level older players move next year than did for this season. The 17’s and 18’s are the strength of the Alliance Club and are aging out soon enough (I’m sure they would have loved to have had another option several years ago though).  Now in the 13’s-16’s. maybe, just not sure yet.  But I do think TPV has captured the “hearts and minds” of the middle school age player and will likely earn their family’s business.

 

I agree the top-level girls need to be in the same club/team to compete Nationally – Alliance had that all to themselves for years and regularly “missed the boat”. 

 

There may be enough area talent in a few age groups to occasionally have a “top 10” finish in a National tournament every 3-5 years but probably not sustain that year after year.   

But, as Osage, Summary Judgment and Clifford have stated, we haven’t had the upper level training or “in-game” coaching (perhaps TPV will prove that different) for consistent Top 10 finishes.  Placing “non-competitive” game coaches and/or the politics of playing a lineup that does not provide the best chance to win has hindered these opportunities several times. Kudos to last year’s Alliance 18’s National Championship in CALIF (even if it was not an Open division – they beat everyone put in front of them)!  And, that team was coached by their top Coach and now Club Director - she demands the best from her players.

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On 3/30/2019 at 11:10 AM, Apostle said:

TT, I’m not willing to wager (just my opinion), but I feel that there will be fewer upper level older players move next year than did for this season.

Agree with Apostle here.

Let's be honest... among the upper level older players (high school age, anyway) what's left at Alliance that TPV would want? Probably one kid of the 16's, at least one, maybe 2 off the 15's. Beyond those, when you talk about kids who are potential candidates to play for Top 40 D1 schools, Alliance does't really have them anymore. Which creates an interesting situation for both clubs.

TPV first. As they become the standard-bearer, the expectations for TPV will be to improve upon the results Alliance had posted with unfettered access to the area's top talent. @ Apostle, I'm not sure I agree that Alliance regularly missed the boat... maybe my expectations are lower than yours, but most years, they'd placed at least one team in Gold at AAU, right? This being Tennessee, that should be good enough. I'd think TPV would certainly take that kind of result this year, and likely in the years going forward.

TPV is going to have have to find a way to compete in USAV events if they want to be truly relevant nationally (there's a limit to how much you can improve just playing yourselves and Southern Performance week after week). If that never happens, then Triple Crown.

Alliance will then be the home for underdogs (at least with its top teams). Those teams will be comprised of players who are just glad to be on a 1's team (like it or not, that matters more than it ought), along with those who know they belong at that level, but have something to prove.

In theory, Alliance top teams should not be able to compete toe-to-toe with TPV peers, who will have the top players and "better" training model. 

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 I have always tried to be pretty level headed on here and don't think I have been over critical or mean spirited at all.  Now granted, I haven't went back and searched everyone of my comments over the last decade--I am sure there are some opinions I would like to have back.  My opinions have changed many times based on really good conversations on the board.  Maybe I am naïve to the politics of all this.  I am  good with that.  Never once had I ever came on here promoting my kid or even mentioning her.  Not my style at all.  I definitely have biases. I am quite certain that most of us know each other on here.  Never once have I tried to out anyone and I don't appreciate you trying to do that to me, weather you were right or wrong.  it's just not cool at all.  Certainly I am loyal to alliance, I never insinuated that I wasn't.  We had a lot of fun with the club. 

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