Scott Tillman out at Lipscomb

[Booger]

2 hours ago, chainsaw2 said:

Well lets see-  Webb and Lipscomb were the obvious two who had school reps on the Board of Control and voted against the TSSAA's staff recommendation of how to split D2 which conveniently placed them just barely in AA rather than AAA.  I know there are some other schools which benefited and maybe keep their populations in check but those two schools blatantly took care of their own.  As stated many times, I don't like D2 having to go out and bring in kids to play any sport who were not going to the school already.  It's college recruiting dripping down to high school to D2AAA, to D2AA and will be D2A and in some cases already is.  Such is life and is nothing new.  I get the idea of little Johnny being raised in his D2 program only to be supplanted his junior year by the new stud transfer and little Johnny and family now are mad as he sits the bench.  What about this twist-- how fair and safe is it for the really good player on the D2 team who due to the school's stance of not bringing in stud transfers, has to play both ways, be on the punt and kickoff teams and risk injury against other D2 programs who do have multiple transfers/acquired talent?  This guy needs some help for his own sake much less the team's but his school refuses to bring in talent to assist- does he now transfer?

adda baby Chain......and that 450 didnt just moveto 530  cause it was a draw on the late night news lottery draw.....Booger nose stuff

.....and the sword of joshua full gospel independent pentacostal assembly down on Broad St just off charger drive dint manage to stay in 2 different divisions cause it wernt deal cuttin at the T$$AA BOC happy hour beach party either

Booger just sayin 

[LetsGoToWork]

7 hours ago, chainsaw2 said:

If they had played in D2AAA it would have been 0-22.  Whether the bank robber stole $100 or $100,000 his intent was to steal.  I won't belabor the point, but  what those two school reps did was in my mind reprehensible. 

Also, I agree with you about the scholarship players.  Is this a known number and since it is supposed to be needs based, do you differentiate between a player receiving 10% scholarship assistance vs. 25%, 50%, etc or just once you meet the scholarship player distinction that's it?

I see what you’re saying but you’re wrong on the record.   The only D2 AA school Lipscomb beat in the past two years was Goodpasture. Lipscomb would have played them anyway since they’ve been playing each other for the past 40 plus years. The other wins came from out of conference games.   So whether they are AA or AAA the record is the same.  Also Lipscomb did play two D2 AAA schools this past season so they didn’t run and hide.  One last thing, if you agree the real measuring stick is the number of scholarships given and not school size in D2 then why do you care?  It sounds like it was the right thing for those schools and their student athletes.  Webb just started a 11 man football program and Lipscomb, at the time of the decision, had no players on athletic scholarships.   None of the other programs in the AAA were at that same starting point.  When Lipscomb was in D1, they were forced to play 3A football and then eventually 4A football for several years when they were the size of 2AA school.  I know other privates were also in that boat.  All of that was due to public school pressure within the TSSAA.  I guess the robber was just taking back what had been robbed from them originally.    

On the scholarships......they definitely can report how many scholarships there are as long as schools are willing to play by the rules.  As we know, there is a clearing house who determines financial need so that institution could publish the number of individual scholarships granted by school.  I think they should simply count the number of individuals on scholarship vs amount of $ given.  This way the playing field can be evened out based on the number of scholarship players and not based on dollars given.  That eliminates total tuition dollar cost factoring into the equation.  

[Booger]

start that co-opin program w/ Jesus Only Academy & The Wardorph School......TSSAA's model plan has worked wonders for Luzziane

...and with another and more elite Webb school that cost bout 50 grand per year enterin the frey.....they got fast tract resources with the right AD in place

Booger just sayin 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Booger

[MichaelMyers76]

12 hours ago, LetsGoToWork said:

I see what you’re saying but you’re wrong on the record.   The only D2 AA school Lipscomb beat in the past two years was Goodpasture. Lipscomb would have played them anyway since they’ve been playing each other for the past 40 plus years. The other wins came from out of conference games.   So whether they are AA or AAA the record is the same.  Also Lipscomb did play two D2 AAA schools this past season so they didn’t run and hide.  One last thing, if you agree the real measuring stick is the number of scholarships given and not school size in D2 then why do you care?  It sounds like it was the right thing for those schools and their student athletes.  Webb just started a 11 man football program and Lipscomb, at the time of the decision, had no players on athletic scholarships.   None of the other programs in the AAA were at that same starting point.  When Lipscomb was in D1, they were forced to play 3A football and then eventually 4A football for several years when they were the size of 2AA school.  I know other privates were also in that boat.  All of that was due to public school pressure within the TSSAA.  I guess the robber was just taking back what had been robbed from them originally.    

On the scholarships......they definitely can report how many scholarships there are as long as schools are willing to play by the rules.  As we know, there is a clearing house who determines financial need so that institution could publish the number of individual scholarships granted by school.  I think they should simply count the number of individuals on scholarship vs amount of $ given.  This way the playing field can be evened out based on the number of scholarship players and not based on dollars given.  That eliminates total tuition dollar cost factoring into the equation.  

The only problem with that is situations like MBA got in trouble for where they just "passed the hat" to help pay for a kid. A lot of kids are getting more than the clearing house is granting. If you don't know that then you really do have your head in the sand. The bottom line is people will always cheat to get their way. Every time a new avenue opens up the TSSAA tries to deal with it but they really  cannot stop it.

Cheaters gonna cheat.

[Booger]

 

yep...sum gonna b not honest in order to gain advantage

......and then the smart progressives that arnt happy just slothin thru life just lookin thru black & white goggles, lettin the wolves feed off them .... they are comfortable with the color grey.....therefore findin a way to successfully live and function in it...therefore crossin the finish line more often than not towards the front while the sheep bring up the rear

cheat·er

Dictionary result for cheater

/ˈCHēdər/

noun

NORTH AMERICAN

 

1. 1.INFORMAL

   a pair of glasses or sunglasses.

Booger just sayin 

[LetsGoToWork]

3 hours ago, MichaelMyers76 said:

The only problem with that is situations like MBA got in trouble for where they just "passed the hat" to help pay for a kid. A lot of kids are getting more than the clearing house is granting. If you don't know that then you really do have your head in the sand. The bottom line is people will always cheat to get their way. Every time a new avenue opens up the TSSAA tries to deal with it but they really  cannot stop it.

Cheaters gonna cheat.

I agree and understand that but it’s a better measuring stick than school size in D2.   I would rather have schools who legitimately have 5-7 scholarship players compete with schools  who may cheat and have 10-12 vs. schools who have no scholarship players competing with schools who cheat and have a handful of players taking tuition dollars under the table.   At least in the first scenario those schools can still compete.    You’re right, cheaters will cheat!  Illegal recruiting seems to be as strong as it always has been.   As we all know, most of the focus has been on the BAs, MBAs, CPAs and other privates regarding their suspicious talent acquisition tactics, but we all know public’s have been in that game for a long time i.e Marshall/Giles County schools, Rutherford County schools and the infamous “Open Zone” schools in East TN.  It’s very telling to look at the top 10 winningest football high school programs in TN and know if you want to cheat, you can and generally get away with it.  I doubt the TSSAA will ever solve the issue.   At the end of the day, schools have to find ways to compete. I’ll take a team who can compete and put up a good fight vs a team who cheats and wins championships.  

[chainsaw2]

On 1/25/2019 at 11:31 PM, LetsGoToWork said:

I see what you’re saying but you’re wrong on the record.   The only D2 AA school Lipscomb beat in the past two years was Goodpasture. Lipscomb would have played them anyway since they’ve been playing each other for the past 40 plus years. The other wins came from out of conference games.   So whether they are AA or AAA the record is the same.  Also Lipscomb did play two D2 AAA schools this past season so they didn’t run and hide.  One last thing, if you agree the real measuring stick is the number of scholarships given and not school size in D2 then why do you care?  It sounds like it was the right thing for those schools and their student athletes.  Webb just started a 11 man football program and Lipscomb, at the time of the decision, had no players on athletic scholarships.   None of the other programs in the AAA were at that same starting point.  When Lipscomb was in D1, they were forced to play 3A football and then eventually 4A football for several years when they were the size of 2AA school.  I know other privates were also in that boat.  All of that was due to public school pressure within the TSSAA.  I guess the robber was just taking back what had been robbed from them originally.    

On the scholarships......they definitely can report how many scholarships there are as long as schools are willing to play by the rules.  As we know, there is a clearing house who determines financial need so that institution could publish the number of individual scholarships granted by school.  I think they should simply count the number of individuals on scholarship vs amount of $ given.  This way the playing field can be evened out based on the number of scholarship players and not based on dollars given.  That eliminates total tuition dollar cost factoring into the equation.  

I agree that more scholarship players equals a more talented team, generally.  What I don't agree is that student population makes no difference.  By your logic, generally a team with a few scholarship players will beat a team with no scholarship players.  Therefore, a team with many scholarship players will beat a team with a few scholarship players. I won't argue this generalization.  However, no team has all scholarship players; therefore, where do the other players come from?  The student body! A larger student body will offer a greater number of talented non-scholarship players than a smaller student body.  LA and Webb knew this, didn't/don't have as many players on scholarship as other schools they would have to play and also did not have a student body like CBHS, MUS, etc to pull from, so they made sure to stay in D2AA for that reason.  Unless the team is strictly scholarship players, your theory must include the student body.

[LetsGoToWork]

12 hours ago, chainsaw2 said:

I agree that more scholarship players equals a more talented team, generally.  What I don't agree is that student population makes no difference.  By your logic, generally a team with a few scholarship players will beat a team with no scholarship players.  Therefore, a team with many scholarship players will beat a team with a few scholarship players. I won't argue this generalization.  However, no team has all scholarship players; therefore, where do the other players come from?  The student body! A larger student body will offer a greater number of talented non-scholarship players than a smaller student body.  LA and Webb knew this, didn't/don't have as many players on scholarship as other schools they would have to play and also did not have a student body like CBHS, MUS, etc to pull from, so they made sure to stay in D2AA for that reason.  Unless the team is strictly scholarship players, your theory must include the student body.

Let me clarify.....there is certainly some impact of school size but in the private arena I think the better way to manage the classifications is to define by scholarships given.  Maybe unlimited vs a max number of scholarships.   Good example is BA.  They are winning at the highest level of D2 but their enrollment is not that big.  Scholarships!   Matter of fact, I am fairly certain that the state champions in AAA over the past years have had smaller student bodies, they just chose to play up.   Going back in time, BA used to beat teams like Riverdale who is a 6A team while BA had enrollment numbers the size of a 1A or 2A team.  Again scholarships win out.  

That seems to support the idea that # of scholarships should define the classifications vs student numbers.    Not sure there’s a clear, 100% answer to all of this but this one makes most sense to me.   

[DIIA]

Some history for those wanting or needing to know about DII and DI classification prior to the quasi-split of public and private schools two years ago beginning with the 2017-18 cycle:

• The DII-A and DII-AA split point was based on the Class A and AA split point in Division I.  From 2013-17 that was somewhere in the 510 range.  For 2017-21 it would have been very similar.

• The (3) Division I classes were based on the total number of schools split evenly three ways

• When football went to 6 classes for Division I, those numbers were based on splitting the above mentioned three classes each in half. (ex:  1A and 2A each had half the A schools, 3A+4A=AA, 5A+6A=AAA)

• The variation to football was when 6A became the "Super 32" class and the remaining schools were split evenly 5 ways

All this to say, when the classification meeting took place in July/August 2016 for the 2017-212 period, the general assumption was the DII-A and DII-AA split would remain the same, based on the class A and class AA split, which had always been in the 500-ish range.  That was the belief for non-Football sports.  DII football (post 2017) was always going to be 3 classes.  It is a legitimate point to debate where those split points should have fallen and where they should fall in 18 months.

While I was not present for that meeting, I would suspect that like anything where consensus must be reached, compromises had to be made.  Dropping the DII non-football split to 450 went in concert with moving DII-AA and DII-AAA spit to 531.  The 265/266 split for DII-A and DII-AA was the logical point as it is (a) half of 530 and (b) it put roughly the same numbers of schools in each of the two lower DII football classifications.

That 450 non-football number dropping from what would had been 510 impacted only St. Mary's and CCS, the later of which was granted a 2 year exemption, the reasoning of which was never explained.  Ensworth and BA were in that range as well, but had always elected to play up, just as they do in football as their actual enrollment would place both schools in DII-AA for football.

With all of that in mind...

It will be interesting to see what happens in 18 months.  If the TSSAA decides to drop DII into two classes for football, the split point will hard to figure out.  It can't be 0-530 and 531>>> because the small DII-A schools will get physically pounded every Friday night and they will never go for that.  If you split the number of schools evenly with 25 in each class, that puts the split around 305 and has schools like FRA, Goodpasture, Boyd, Knox Grace, and Northpoint playing BA, Ensworth, MBA, MUS, McCallie, Baylor, etc.  That's not going to work either.  And the current 450 for non-football only nets DII-AAA football three additional schools.

Just like in the summer of 2016, the next time will involve compromise from multiple parties, each with varying interests.

If DII does drop to only having two football classes for the next 4 year classification cycle, I suspect the split number will fall around 400 which is close to halfway between the two unacceptable extremes of 305 and 530.

JFW

PS: if this thread continues with good substantive discussion and debate, maybe we can delve into other means of dividing private schools other than simple enrollment numbers.  Some of the other states in the southeast have different methods for doing this as well as one creative method which keeps public and private schools together.  More on that later.  

Edited January 31, 2019 by JFW3

[chainsaw2]

per 9/16 newspaper article-- " White points to the Division II committee's recommendation to divide three classes evenly as the best way to comprise the league.  The TSSAA staff also recommended that proposal.  Instead, the TSSAA's Board of Control passed set enrollments to make up the league.  Schools with enrollments from 1-265 are in DII-A, 266-530 are in DIIAA and schools with larger enrollments go to DII-AAA. "The proposal we put forth when we all met at Goodpasture this summer alleviated all that," White said of a Division II informational meeting that took place before the Board of Control vote was held. "It had us a good equal division of teams everyone could fill a schedule, you could establish some good local games with good crowds and not have to miss so much school.  "It just so happens that wasn't followed and if you look closely at it you'll see there are a couple of guys on those committees that were curiously right under that change in the number."

The article goes on to identify the schools and the athletic directors as well as the continued consideration BA and Ensworth might not play up in DII-AAA which obviously they ultimately did.

I wasn't in the meeting, but I believe the DII committee and TSSAA had compromise and parity in mind as best as they could account for considering all current DI teams moving to DII were not known at the time.  Instead their recommendations were not followed.  The question is why and only those in the room know... but if it sounds like a duck and walks like a duck.......

[Red Rebels]

On 1/26/2019 at 4:58 PM, LetsGoToWork said:

...and the infamous “Open Zone” schools in East TN.  

Lenoir City doesn't give scholarships.

[Booger]

14 hours ago, JFW3 said:

Some history for those wanting or needing to know about DII and DI classification prior to the quasi-split of public and private schools two years ago beginning with the 2017-18 cycle:

• The DII-A and DII-AA split point was based on the Class A and AA split point in Division I.  From 2013-17 that was somewhere in the 510 range.  For 2017-21 it would have been very similar.

• The (3) Division I classes were based on the total number of schools split evenly three ways

• When football went to 6 classes for Division I, those numbers were based on splitting the above mentioned three classes each in half. (ex:  1A and 2A each had half the A schools, 3A+4A=AA, 5A+6A=AAA)

• The variation to football was when 6A became the "Super 32" class and the remaining schools were split evenly 5 ways

All this to say, when the classification meeting took place in July/August 2016 for the 2017-212 period, the general assumption was the DII-A and DII-AA split would remain the same, based on the class A and class AA split, which had always been in the 500-ish range.  That was the belief for non-Football sports.  DII football (post 2017) was always going to be 3 classes.  It is a legitimate point to debate where those split points should have fallen and where they should fall in 18 months.

While I was not present for that meeting, I would suspect that like anything where consensus must be reached, compromises had to be made.  Dropping the DII non-football split to 450 went in concert with moving DII-AA and DII-AAA spit to 531.  The 265/266 split for DII-A and DII-AA was the logical point as it is (a) half of 530 and (b) it put roughly the same numbers of schools in each of the two lower DII football classifications.

That 450 non-football number dropping from what would had been 510 impacted only St. Mary's and CCS, the later of which was granted a 2 year exemption, the reasoning of which was never explained.  Ensworth and BA were in that range as well, but had always elected to play up, just as they do in football as their actual enrollment would place both schools in DII-AA for football.

With all of that in mind...

It will be interesting to see what happens in 18 months.  If the TSSAA decides to drop DII into two classes for football, the split point will hard to figure out.  It can't be 0-530 and 531>>> because the small DII-A schools will get physically pounded every Friday night and they will never go for that.  If you split the number of schools evenly with 25 in each class, that puts the split around 305 and has schools like FRA, Goodpasture, Boyd, Knox Grace, and Northpoint playing BA, Ensworth, MBA, MUS, McCallie, Baylor, etc.  That's not going to work either.  And the current 450 for non-football only nets DII-AAA football three additional schools.

Just like in the summer of 2016, the next time will involve compromise from multiple parties, each with varying interests.

If DII does drop to only having two football classes for the next 4 year classification cycle, I suspect the split number will fall around 400 which is close to halfway between the two unacceptable extremes of 305 and 530.

JFW

PS: if this thread continues with good substantive discussion and debate, maybe we can delve into other means of dividing private schools other than simple enrollment numbers.  Some of the other states in the southeast have different methods for doing this as well as one creative method which keeps public and private schools together.  More on that later.  

 

2 hours ago, chainsaw2 said:

per 9/16 newspaper article-- " White points to the Division II committee's recommendation to divide three classes evenly as the best way to comprise the league.  The TSSAA staff also recommended that proposal.  Instead, the TSSAA's Board of Control passed set enrollments to make up the league.  Schools with enrollments from 1-265 are in DII-A, 266-530 are in DIIAA and schools with larger enrollments go to DII-AAA. "The proposal we put forth when we all met at Goodpasture this summer alleviated all that," White said of a Division II informational meeting that took place before the Board of Control vote was held. "It had us a good equal division of teams everyone could fill a schedule, you could establish some good local games with good crowds and not have to miss so much school.  "It just so happens that wasn't followed and if you look closely at it you'll see there are a couple of guys on those committees that were curiously right under that change in the number."

The article goes on to identify the schools and the athletic directors as well as the continued consideration BA and Ensworth might not play up in DII-AAA which obviously they ultimately did.

I wasn't in the meeting, but I believe the DII committee and TSSAA had compromise and parity in mind as best as they could account for considering all current DI teams moving to DII were not known at the time.  Instead their recommendations were not followed.  The question is why and only those in the room know... but if it sounds like a duck and walks like a duck.......

Booger just sayin