Style vs. Substance

[blazer1set]

What if you run an old Wing-T offense but it takes you to the state title game?
What if you only throw a couple of passes per game but you have a Gold Ball in your trophy case?
What if you just do not look like (i.e., line up like) an NFL team but you still romp your high school opponents?
Many questions, few answers....     Or maybe not??     You guys tell me...

[MidTennFootball]

16 minutes ago, blazer1set said:

What if you run an old Wing-T offense but it takes you to the state title game?
What if you only throw a couple of passes per game but you have a Gold Ball in your trophy case?
What if you just do not look like (i.e., line up like) an NFL team but you still romp your high school opponents?
Many questions, few answers....     Or maybe not??     You guys tell me...

For me, the ultimate goal is to win a state title. Nobody will remember how it was done, just the result that followed. Making a jab about an opponents offense is just admission that you can't stop them.

People said the same things about Oakland in 2008 that theyve said in 2018, that they're boring, predictable, behind with the times etc etc. All they just did was dominate two of the best public school programs in the state with that boring and predictable offense. If that equals a state championship every year, then sign me up

[BlueDevil58]

Coaches are well aware of the fact that, no matter how much you win, people will always gripe about whatever you're doing, especially if you're doing something that's "unfashionable."  There are legendary coaches in other states who win state titles regularly who have been run off for running veer, Wing-T, single wing, or even the I formation.

Meanwhile, a lot of fans just want to see the ball in the air.  If a coach runs the Wing-T and goes 3-7 for a couple of years in a row, that coach will likely be fired.  If he finishes 3-7 throwing the ball around, they'll probably keep him around for a while.

Two of the most dominant HS programs in the nation , De La Salle in CA and Bellevue in Washington, are old fashioned Split Back Veer and Wing-T offenses, respectively, and they roll over everybody like they're made out of tissue paper... but that doesn't stop people in the peanut gallery from griping that they're not running a more "modern" offense and demanding changes.

Same goes for other top national HS programs like Smith Center in Kansas (who ran a unique wishbone until a few years ago), Apopka in FL (single wing and is the Maryville of Florida, basically), and JT Curtis in LA (who are also veer).

Don Markham, the inventor of the Double Wing offense, was one of the most successful HS coaches of all time, with a ton of amazing turnarounds and national records at multiple schools in multiple states--I mean the guy made a career out of taking over perennial doormats who were 1-9 or 0-10 and going undefeated with a gold ball and state or national scoring records in his first year on the job... but he never stayed at any HS for longer than 3-4 years because of all the griping about how the offense wasn't good enough.

You see this on the college level, too.  Years ago, Nebraska got tired of winning only 10-11 games a year running that "outdated" option offense, so they fired their coach and brought in a succession of pro-style and spread coaches to throw the ball to mediocrity.

A lot of HS coaches have realized that they can still get away with running an old fashioned offense if they can figure out a way to make it work from the shotgun so it looks "modern."  Go under center, and the Wing-T, I formation, or triple option is outdated.  Back the QB up 4 yards with a bubble screen every now and then and all of a sudden you're a genius.  It really is that simple... if they can make it work.

Heck, I've talked to coaches in other states who run the Single Wing and get away with it by calling it "Power Shotgun."

Give me success over style points, any day.  No matter how you score, a TD is still only worth 6 points.  Honestly, I think a lot of the truly terrible teams out there trying to run spread offenses would be a lot better off going under center and grinding it out so they at least kill some clock, stop turning the ball over, and don't get humiliated 50-7 every week.

Also, with everyone trying to run "the spread" now, being that one team on the schedule who does something different and punches you in the mouth on every play can be a huge advantage.

[GWAVE1]

Just win!  

[AlwaysAPatriot]

10 minutes ago, BlueDevil58 said:

Coaches are well aware of the fact that, no matter how much you win, people will always gripe about whatever you're doing, especially if you're doing something that's "unfashionable."  There are legendary coaches in other states who win state titles regularly who have been run off for running veer, Wing-T, single wing, or even the I formation.

Meanwhile, a lot of fans just want to see the ball in the air.  If a coach runs the Wing-T and goes 3-7 for a couple of years in a row, that coach will likely be fired.  If he finishes 3-7 throwing the ball around, they'll probably keep him around for a while.

Two of the most dominant HS programs in the nation , De La Salle in CA and Bellevue in Washington, are old fashioned Split Back Veer and Wing-T offenses, respectively, and they roll over everybody like they're made out of tissue paper... but that doesn't stop people in the peanut gallery from griping that they're not running a more "modern" offense and demanding changes.

Same goes for other top national HS programs like Smith Center in Kansas (who ran a unique wishbone until a few years ago), Apopka in FL (single wing and is the Maryville of Florida, basically), and JT Curtis in LA (who are also veer).

Don Markham, the inventor of the Double Wing offense, was one of the most successful HS coaches of all time, with a ton of amazing turnarounds and national records at multiple schools in multiple states--I mean the guy made a career out of taking over perennial doormats who were 1-9 or 0-10 and going undefeated with a gold ball and state or national scoring records in his first year on the job... but he never stayed at any HS for longer than 3-4 years because of all the griping about how the offense wasn't good enough.

You see this on the college level, too.  Years ago, Nebraska got tired of winning only 10-11 games a year running that "outdated" option offense, so they fired their coach and brought in a succession of pro-style and spread coaches to throw the ball to mediocrity.

A lot of HS coaches have realized that they can still get away with running an old fashioned offense if they can figure out a way to make it work from the shotgun so it looks "modern."  Go under center, and the Wing-T, I formation, or triple option is outdated.  Back the QB up 4 yards with a bubble screen every now and then and all of a sudden you're a genius.  It really is that simple... if they can make it work.

Heck, I've talked to coaches in other states who run the Single Wing and get away with it by calling it "Power Shotgun."

Give me success over style points, any day.  No matter how you score, a TD is still only worth 6 points.  Honestly, I think a lot of the truly terrible teams out there trying to run spread offenses would be a lot better off going under center and grinding it out so they at least kill some clock, stop turning the ball over, and don't get humiliated 50-7 every week.

Also, with everyone trying to run "the spread" now, being that one team on the schedule who does something different and punches you in the mouth on every play can be a huge advantage.

Absolutely intelligent and right on the money!!

[Ozone03]

14 minutes ago, BlueDevil58 said:

Coaches are well aware of the fact that, no matter how much you win, people will always gripe about whatever you're doing, especially if you're doing something that's "unfashionable."  There are legendary coaches in other states who win state titles regularly who have been run off for running veer, Wing-T, single wing, or even the I formation.

Meanwhile, a lot of fans just want to see the ball in the air.  If a coach runs the Wing-T and goes 3-7 for a couple of years in a row, that coach will likely be fired.  If he finishes 3-7 throwing the ball around, they'll probably keep him around for a while.

Two of the most dominant HS programs in the nation , De La Salle in CA and Bellevue in Washington, are old fashioned Split Back Veer and Wing-T offenses, respectively, and they roll over everybody like they're made out of tissue paper... but that doesn't stop people in the peanut gallery from griping that they're not running a more "modern" offense and demanding changes.

Same goes for other top national HS programs like Smith Center in Kansas (who ran a unique wishbone until a few years ago), Apopka in FL (single wing and is the Maryville of Florida, basically), and JT Curtis in LA (who are also veer).

Don Markham, the inventor of the Double Wing offense, was one of the most successful HS coaches of all time, with a ton of amazing turnarounds and national records at multiple schools in multiple states--I mean the guy made a career out of taking over perennial doormats who were 1-9 or 0-10 and going undefeated with a gold ball and state or national scoring records in his first year on the job... but he never stayed at any HS for longer than 3-4 years because of all the griping about how the offense wasn't good enough.

You see this on the college level, too.  Years ago, Nebraska got tired of winning only 10-11 games a year running that "outdated" option offense, so they fired their coach and brought in a succession of pro-style and spread coaches to throw the ball to mediocrity.

A lot of HS coaches have realized that they can still get away with running an old fashioned offense if they can figure out a way to make it work from the shotgun so it looks "modern."  Go under center, and the Wing-T, I formation, or triple option is outdated.  Back the QB up 4 yards with a bubble screen every now and then and all of a sudden you're a genius.  It really is that simple... if they can make it work.

Heck, I've talked to coaches in other states who run the Single Wing and get away with it by calling it "Power Shotgun."

Give me success over style points, any day.  No matter how you score, a TD is still only worth 6 points.  Honestly, I think a lot of the truly terrible teams out there trying to run spread offenses would be a lot better off going under center and grinding it out so they at least kill some clock, stop turning the ball over, and don't get humiliated 50-7 every week.

Also, with everyone trying to run "the spread" now, being that one team on the schedule who does something different and punches you in the mouth on every play can be a huge advantage.

Could not agree more

[fredjones]

In My view, the split-back Houston Veer would be almost unstoppable.  You could run to either side and throw enough out of it to win big

[blazer1set]

Okay guys, then riddle me this.... why do all the teams in NET try to line up like the NE Patriots?   We don't have the skill level to run that type of offense but yet it seems that we always try to go with what is fashionable at the time.     EXCEPTION:    Greeneville has the personnel to run anything and make it look good, but they are definitely the exception for sure.

[zoneread56]

the spread is the best way to go now in high school football. it allows teams with smaller oline and dominant skill players to really shine. however, when you combine a great oline with good skill players in the spread its unstoppable. the wing t also now does not prepare players for college offenses. i think oakland got away with winning state this yr bc maryville and whitehaven both did not have the talent as yrs past on the dline. problem with the wing t is if you get it down by 14 it is very hard to come back bc the lack of throwing and how it can be negated by a discipline and good dline. the spread however is a whole different story bc you can make it as complicated or as simple as you want to especially going fast tempo on offense. the spread has many different types air raid, spread option, run and shoot, pro style spread, etc. all these allow teams to have much more of a chance to have success  and get players out to play. the problem in TN is there have been only a few teams who have ever ran a true spread offense and dominated due to lack of athletes compared to other states

Edited November 30, 2018 by zoneread56

[BlueDevil58]

54 minutes ago, blazer1set said:

Okay guys, then riddle me this.... why do all the teams in NET try to line up like the NE Patriots?   We don't have the skill level to run that type of offense but yet it seems that we always try to go with what is fashionable at the time.     EXCEPTION:    Greeneville has the personnel to run anything and make it look good, but they are definitely the exception for sure.

Because that's mostly just what coaches know now and it's what parents, boosters, ADs, and kids expect, so that's who gets the head coach jobs. Anything else is looked down upon as "youth offense."   The really bad schools always think that they don't have the talent up front to win, or they think they need to run some flashy offense to get athletes out, they wind up just making things worse.

Another problem is if coaches know spread and pro-style stuff... those offenses have a certain set of answers, techniques, and drills they need to do in practice to teach that stuff and it takes a few years to really learn that inside and out.  Those little details are the difference between 4 wins a year vs. 8+.

If coaches want to "run what fits our talent this year," all that stuff goes out the window and they start from scratch every year.  If you're radically changing every year... you're going to only be mediocre unless you just catch lightning in a bottle with a stud or two who simply need to be turned loose.  Not many kids like that in NET.

I'm old enough to remember when Mike Nelson and Stacey Carter first brought "the spread" on the scene in NET, first at Sullivan East and then to Sullivan South and Science Hill.  They absolutely torched people at first with Sullivan East's talent because Carter knew how to coach QBs better than other coaches in NET, plus NET defenses really had no clue how to defend it.  Now... that's what everyone does.

I think Chuckey Doak runs Wing-T.  They used to suck, but after they started running the Wing-T a few years ago they became decently competitive.  Sullivan North was godawful for a while, but then Robbie Norris took over and installed the Double Wing and they started making deep playoff runs again with it.

[Kevin38]

Just win...I enjoy watching old school offenses, veer, wingT, ect, when run well.....

Edited November 30, 2018 by Kevin38

[CobraKai4ever]

I think that coaches are also concerned about getting players. I think more players are going to want to go to a school that runs a more contemporary offense that the players feel will give them the opportunity to build their own stats. We are unfortunately in a time in which individual stats seem to be more important than team stats. I know that wining championships will also attract players to your program, but I do think there is some pressure to keep up with the latest trends in order to attract the best players.

Edited November 30, 2018 by CobraKai4ever