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Fayetteville to forfeit 6 wins


MidTennFootball
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3 minutes ago, PullinGuard said:

You must not be reading what I'm writing.  That is clearly the crux of this matter (but was not in question in the Signal Mtn case - everyone agreed he was out of territory).  But it's not logical to merely assume that one is more important than the other without more information.  Which one governs if they don't agree?

You are assuming the bus routes govern in all cases if there's a disagreement.  That's a reasonable guess, but it's only a guess if you don't have any more guidance as to the rationale behind why each specification is there. 

In order to logically decide this, one has to have more information.  You need the history and rationale behind why two different criteria are listed without any explicit guidance on what to do if they disagree.  Is it reasonable to assume that geographic boundaries are to be ignored if there is a disagreement?  That may very well be correct in the end, but it's not reasonable to assume it.  You need to know how the rule can to be in order to understand how to deal with a case where the two do not agree.  I've mentioned it several times now.  Is it sensible to declare that Tullahoma has no 'territory' at all since it has no buses?  It has to be if you completely believe only buses matter in a disagreement.  But for me, that nonsensical example creates some cognitive dissonance, and I'd like some more information to resolve it.

We need to see the legislative agenda and minutes for when 'territory' was defined.  That might provide some guidance. 

Both/And

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1 hour ago, rlh said:

Both/And

So, you're saying the territory is both the geographic boundaries and the bus routes.   It does not say the lesser of the two or where the two intersect.  Definitely says both are to be considered, but does not give guidance as to how to go about that.

But you clearly do think Tullahoma has no territory at all, correct?  Does that strike you as sensible?  If it's not sensible and Tullahoma does indeed have territory, why is that?  What rule or logic allows for that?  Because this rule interpreted with your logic says they don't have any territory at all.  Seems unlikely.

I know back in the early 2000's, there was a TSSAA provision that said if you are in a zoned district, with multiple high schools, and the bus routes changed so that it became more reasonable for you to switch to a different school, you could do so without sitting out a year.  I wonder if this is a vestige of that.  If the bus route specification is meant to deal with zones within a system, then the problematic Tullahoma territory observations fades away.

Why is the bus route specification there?  That's key, and you can't just assume it, one way or the other.  See below, from the 2003 handbook (found it).  This could explain why the bus route language remains. 

This is the only historical reference to bus routes that I've been able to find. 

***

Section 15. Students who change their school due to a bona fide change or establishment of bus routes by the county board of education and by the county superintendent shall not forfeit their eligibility. In cases where such a change in bus routes makes it equally convenient for a student to attend another school or the school in which he or she already has an athletic record, such student cannot transfer without losing eligibility for a period of 12 months.

***

Notable, I think, that this contemplates a kid playing BEFORE there is a bus route in his area.  (bone fide change or establishment of bus routes).  Starts to give a potential idea of where the bus route specification may have come from and why it's there.

 

Edited by PullinGuard
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It seems like those on FC side can argue and defend the rules/law for them, those opposed can do the same against them... when it’s all said and done thou just think what everyone will remember from this situation, especially if FC keeps this ongoing and plays in the playoffs while a team or teams get left out because of it and then they lose this lawsuit and found to be not eligible for postseason. The real losers in all of this is the kids, FCs, kids of those on teams that get left out. From the couple of folks that I’ve spoke to in Fayetteville about it there seems to be a mass message/ rally cry that’s being spread/shared to their players parents and families that they are the ones being cheated, it’s not fair, going to fight for it to the end., while also pointing fingers at who possibly might be who turned them in. Which shouldn’t be really important in all of this if they are Indeed guilty of breaking the rules. I’m very tired of the “it’s everyone else’s fault” thinking our kids are being taught every day.  
 

Also when a team loses a players life in any kind of way it can make emotions run higher and even increase the “us against everyone”  mindset of everyone involved with a team, I’ve been around a couple teams that have taken an awful situation where they lost a teammate, friend, brother/sister, coach, etc.. and used it in a positive way to help fuel them for a season.. I just hope that some key adults that make important decisions at FC aren’t combining these two very different situations of TSSAA legal fight and the loss of a student/player to keep false hopes and continued support up. We should all know that right is right and wrong is wrong no matter who is doing it. We should also know which of those two bad situations FC is dealing with is more important. Football is a game at the end of the day... in my opinion it’s (High School football) the greatest game in the world because it’s the best teacher of life lessons and team work that many boys at this age desperately need.. it’s here that many boys Life’s are changed and a lot of times saved.

It may not be possible but I hope they get all this mess figured out very soon before playoff brackets are announced...  If not we all know  it turns into an even more uglier or messier situation.. If FC goes a round or two or even to the semis in the playoffs let’s say and then  their teams season is officially over by defeat on the scoreboard but after the court ruling comes down they were in the wrong and should’ve followed TSSAA rules and punishment then let’s  all hope those key adults at FC that are involved are held accountable for their actions if they are in the wrong whatsoever.. And I’ll even add that if the TSSAA is found to be in the wrong they too should face punishment! Come on people,  enough is enough of the victim mindset “well I didn’t get my way so the entire world is out to get me”. Our youth watch and see everything good/bad we do around them. It could be a couple of months or 10-15 years before they fully realize what the true intentions of these key adults were but most figure it out spooner than later.. I’m jumping off the soapbox and back to reading the legal court proceeding posts! 

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https://www.fcsboe.org/domain/2078  From the Fayetteville High School general information page.

Fayetteville High School is a public high school in the Fayetteville City School District serving students in grades 9th through 12th grade. Admission is open to all Lincoln County residents. Transportation is provided within city limits for students.

Tullahoma has pay to ride buses. Fayetteville may have this too.

I lived in Fayetteville in 1979 when Lincoln County High School went into operation. At that time Fayetteville Central was a County High School along with Flintville, Blanche, Boonshill. They were all consolidated together to become Lincoln County.

Edited by MCHSBigBlue
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1 hour ago, PullinGuard said:

That would violate the TSSAA's territory definition/rule.  There is no provision for one school board to establish the geographic boundaries of another.   The rule very specifically acknowledges the geographic boundaries and bus routes as established by the local school board.

By the same token, I don't think Fayetteville can claim the city from LCHS.

School territories overlap all the time.  Even Riverside, in Fayetteville, overlaps both FHS and LCHS.  It's boundary is 20 miles around the school.

 

 

Your post may just contain the answer that you've been looking for and I didn't even have to highlight it, you did. If Fayetteville has written policy stating that FCSB establishes or acknowledges it's geographic boundaries via bus routes, yet no bus ran to/by the athlete in question's residence of record... well, there's your answer.

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17 minutes ago, tradertwo said:

Your post may just contain the answer that you've been looking for and I didn't even have to highlight it, you did. If Fayetteville has written policy stating that FCSB establishes or acknowledges it's geographic boundaries via bus routes, yet no bus ran to/by the athlete in question's residence of record... well, there's your answer.

They do not.  They explicitly say the school is open to all residents of Lincoln County - that clearly shows their intentions relative to geography are separate from bus routes. 

***

Fayetteville High School is a public high school in the Fayetteville City School District serving students in grades 9th through 12th grade. Admission is open to all Lincoln County residents. Transportation is provided within city limits for students.

***

It's a little hard for me to imagine that bus routes should be considered more important than geographic boundaries and the clear and undeniable history of where the school's students come from.  It's absolutely a fact that the system has drawn a substantial number students from all over the county for 40+ years.  Just hard to imagine that bus routes, which can obviously be decided based on pure economics (and which consequently may or may not exist at all) are logically more important than the historical footprint of where students have lived.

Still, more information is needed for me to make a reasoned judgment on the matter.  It's not trivial.

Edited by PullinGuard
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3 hours ago, PullinGuard said:

If the TSSAA declares today that FHS has been eliminated from the playoffs, they are 100% in contempt of court and will pay the price for that.  I'm fairly certain that not only rules, but laws matter.  I don't think you'll get them to publish anything of the sort while the court has specifically ordered them not to.

 

I think what you mean to say is that before the injuction was granted, the TSSAA declared them out of the playoffs.  That's quite a distance from saying it applies today, which is what you seem to be attempting to assert.

I'm sure that's why you don't see Class 1A Region 5 standings on their website or the playoffs possibilities. 

https://tssaasports.com/sports/standings/

 

https://tssaasports.com/sports/football/possibilities.cfm

 

As for the Bold above?  I'm fairly certain they do matter. 

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46 minutes ago, tradertwo said:

Your post may just contain the answer that you've been looking for and I didn't even have to highlight it, you did. If Fayetteville has written policy stating that FCSB establishes or acknowledges it's geographic boundaries via bus routes, yet no bus ran to/by the athlete in question's residence of record... well, there's your answer.

 

44 minutes ago, PullinGuard said:

They do not.  They explicitly say the school is open to all residents of Lincoln County - that clearly shows their intentions relative to geography are separate from bus routes. 

***

Fayetteville High School is a public high school in the Fayetteville City School District serving students in grades 9th through 12th grade. Admission is open to all Lincoln County residents. Transportation is provided within city limits for students.

***

It's a little hard for me to imagine that bus routes should be considered more important than geographic boundaries and the clear and undeniable history of where the school's students come from.  It's absolutely a fact that the system has drawn a substantial number students from all over the county for 40+ years.  Just hard to imagine that bus routes, which can obviously be decided based on pure economics (and which consequently may or may not exist at all) are logically more important than the historical footprint of where students have lived.

Still, more information is needed for me to make a reasoned judgment on the matter.  It's not trivial.

Question is answered again. FCHS is indeed open to all residents of Lincoln county, with transportation provided within city limits. TSSAA says the bus routes have to go by an individuals residence. If the kid were an incoming freshman with no high school varsity record, this would not even be an issue. Since that is not the case, it is the issue. When my son went to Cornersville in the 8th grade, we sat down and talked with the middle school coach at the time and the question that came up multiple times was 'Did he play for another school last season?' This was in middle school where to my knowledge it doesn't matter. The technicality is in the wording. TRANSPORTATION PROVIDED WITHIN CITY LIMITS FOR STUDENTS. If he is not in city limits, and he is a transfer student, without sitting out a year, student is ineligible. JMO 

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24 minutes ago, Southtowner said:

I'm sure that's why you don't see Class 1A Region 5 standings on their website or the playoffs possibilities. 

https://tssaasports.com/sports/standings/

 

https://tssaasports.com/sports/football/possibilities.cfm

 

As for the Bold above?  I'm fairly certain they do matter. 

Well, I guess region 6 gets 1st round byes and plays each other in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. If that were the case, region 5 banquet would be REALLY interesting as if it won't be already.

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I haven't been following this whole thing very closely, but I know one thing. This is T$$AA's gig. They write, interpret, and arbitrate the rules. They always win. Schools are voluntary members of the organization and agree to abide by the rules, as interpreted and enforced by the T$$AA. All of the sporting events and playoffs are sanctioned by the T$$AA, and they determine who is allowed to participate and who is not.

T$$AA will win.

 

Judge Chilly.jpg

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42 minutes ago, Jobres76 said:

 

Question is answered again. FCHS is indeed open to all residents of Lincoln county, with transportation provided within city limits. TSSAA says the bus routes have to go by an individuals residence. If the kid were an incoming freshman with no high school varsity record, this would not even be an issue. Since that is not the case, it is the issue. When my son went to Cornersville in the 8th grade, we sat down and talked with the middle school coach at the time and the question that came up multiple times was 'Did he play for another school last season?' This was in middle school where to my knowledge it doesn't matter. The technicality is in the wording. TRANSPORTATION PROVIDED WITHIN CITY LIMITS FOR STUDENTS. If he is not in city limits, and he is a transfer student, without sitting out a year, student is ineligible. JMO 

I’ve read the rules extensively and have not seen the residence note you cite. Please post that portion of the rules. 

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1 hour ago, Southtowner said:

I'm sure that's why you don't see Class 1A Region 5 standings on their website or the playoffs possibilities. 

https://tssaasports.com/sports/standings/

 

https://tssaasports.com/sports/football/possibilities.cfm

 

As for the Bold above?  I'm fairly certain they do matter. 

No, it isn’t. That’s because something could conceivably change and they don’t want to show incorrect information.  Also, playoff possibilities are a big problem as long as this isn’t resolved, since there would be possibilities with FHS and without - just too confusing to list. Sensible that those aren’t included.  

You are apparently contending Region 5 will not participate in the playoffs.  I don’t believe that at all.  They have announced nothing at all to indicate that.  Why not?

We’ll see.  Both the TSSAA’s rules and the law says that they can’t just leave region 5 out. So, if the rules and the law matter, then that isn’t happening. 

Edited by PullinGuard
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