Fayetteville to forfeit 6 wins

[Southtowner]

49 minutes ago, PullinGuard said:

No, it isn’t. That’s because something could conceivably change and they don’t want to show incorrect information.  Also, playoff possibilities are a big problem as long as this isn’t resolved, since there would be possibilities with FHS and without - just too confusing to list. Sensible that those aren’t included.  

You are apparently contending Region 5 will not participate in the playoffs.  I don’t believe that at all.  They have announced nothing at all to indicate that.  Why not?

We’ll see.  Both the TSSAA’s rules and the law says that they can’t just leave region 5 out. So, if the rules and the law matter, then that isn’t happening. 

PG,  I haven't contended anywhere that Region 5 will not participate in the playoffs.  

You're the one that said ' I don't think you'll get them to publish anything of the sort while the court has specifically ordered them not to'. 

My response to that was : I'm sure that's why you don't see Class 1A Region 5 in the standings on their website or the playoffs possibilities for Region 5. 

 

[Southtowner]

1 hour ago, MountainTroll said:

I haven't been following this whole thing very closely, but I know one thing. This is T$$AA's gig. They write, interpret, and arbitrate the rules. They always win. Schools are voluntary members of the organization and agree to abide by the rules, as interpreted and enforced by the T$$AA. All of the sporting events and playoffs are sanctioned by the T$$AA, and they determine who is allowed to participate and who is not.

T$$AA will win.

 

This is it in a nutshell. 

[OLD PIRATE]

1 hour ago, MountainTroll said:

I haven't been following this whole thing very closely, but I know one thing. This is T$$AA's gig. They write, interpret, and arbitrate the rules. They always win. Schools are voluntary members of the organization and agree to abide by the rules, as interpreted and enforced by the T$$AA. All of the sporting events and playoffs are sanctioned by the T$$AA, and they determine who is allowed to participate and who is not.

T$$AA will win.

 

Mtn Troll, Old Pirate & a host others well remember SM meteoric rise the fame. That thought in mind, back then every SM poster was in denial and acted as thou theys were insulted with the attention they received regarding transfers. That scenario continues today by others. Questions, 1. Does you see similarities of programs getting unwanted attention for questionable transfer to fill immediate position needs?  2. Is there a time when supporters openly acknowledge their wrong doing?  OP says the only thing most ever heard is, We didn’t know what we were doing is illegal or We thought we were doing everything by the book or the TSSAA is wrong with their interpretation of their rules! Jest wondering, does anyone know or heard a program simply say, We got caught, we were cheating, We hope the TSSAA punishes all those doing what we got caught doing!  One thing is for sure,  Cheating programs are like inmates, All are innocent!  LOPAO 

Edited October 31, 2019 by OLD PIRATE

[Jobres76]

1 hour ago, PullinGuard said:

I’ve read the rules extensively and have not seen the residence note you cite. Please post that portion of the rules. 

If you are not the attorney for FC, maybe you should be. I by no means am an atrorney, but did start college to be one and changed my mind because i have a soul. Here is what I found on page 8 of the 2019-2020 TSSAA handbook, which has been talked about adnauseum in the 60 pages of this thread.

Territory- For a public school, the "territory" of the school is the geographic boundaries(All of Lincoln county) AND bus routes of the area served by the school AS ESTABLISHED by the local board of education.(inside city limits) For a "system wide" public school or home school student participating at a public school, the "territory" of the school is the geographic boundaries of the school system.

The "system wide" part has been talked adnauseum as well. My question on this is: Does system wide mean all schools under a particular school board, or does it mean all systems within a county? If it is all schools under a particular board, FC is the only school in the system

Transfer student- a transfer student is any student changing schools for any reason other than completed the highest, or terminal, grade at another school. A student who must change schools because he/she has completed the highest grade at his/her previous school is not considered a transfer student and is eligible to participate in athletics at any school he/she attends, without further approval, provided he/she satisfies the RESIDENCE requirements above.

All that said, it boils down to the and with boundaries and bus routes. FC says all of LC with bus routes inside city limits. This may not be a good enough answer, but it's all I've got. It comes down to definition of system wide and technicalities. I am done commenting, which is probably a good thing for some. Time to focus on the next game and become a better radio broadcaster.

[Mustang1969]

On 10/30/2019 at 3:21 PM, PullinGuard said:

Easy to understand why it's missing now. 

 

Harder to imagine how they would manage the actual playoff situation if this isn't resolved for a month or something.  Just delay the 1A playoffs 2-3 weeks or longer if necessary, omit 1A from the Clinic bowl and try to catch up whevever they can?  I'm assuming that a team, by rule, can't even practice if you're not in the playoffs, so all likely or certain 1A playoff teams (or at least region 5 and opponents, region 6?) would have to stop practicing in the meantime? 

I think that other schools such as: Obion County/Union City, Gibson County/ Milan/Peabody/ Humboldt have all operated inside the requirements.. how do those schools define geographic boundaries? I would be willing to bet that city limits define those territories. I know here in Huntingdon that any child can come to school here , there is a fee involved, because city taxes go to fund the school. The student will come up with the same $ in lieu of that family paying taxes. BUT AN ATHLETE IS GOING TO SIT A YEAR BEFORE PLAYING. It seems Fayetteville is not willing to abide by the spirit of the rules. 

[thegreatwhite1]

4 hours ago, PullinGuard said:

So, you're saying the territory is both the geographic boundaries and the bus routes.   It does not say the lesser of the two or where the two intersect.  Definitely says both are to be considered, but does not give guidance as to how to go about that.

But you clearly do think Tullahoma has no territory at all, correct?  Does that strike you as sensible?  If it's not sensible and Tullahoma does indeed have territory, why is that?  What rule or logic allows for that?  Because this rule interpreted with your logic says they don't have any territory at all.  Seems unlikely.

I know back in the early 2000's, there was a TSSAA provision that said if you are in a zoned district, with multiple high schools, and the bus routes changed so that it became more reasonable for you to switch to a different school, you could do so without sitting out a year.  I wonder if this is a vestige of that.  If the bus route specification is meant to deal with zones within a system, then the problematic Tullahoma territory observations fades away.

Why is the bus route specification there?  That's key, and you can't just assume it, one way or the other.  See below, from the 2003 handbook (found it).  This could explain why the bus route language remains. 

This is the only historical reference to bus routes that I've been able to find. 

***

Section 15. Students who change their school due to a bona fide change or establishment of bus routes by the county board of education and by the county superintendent shall not forfeit their eligibility. In cases where such a change in bus routes makes it equally convenient for a student to attend another school or the school in which he or she already has an athletic record, such student cannot transfer without losing eligibility for a period of 12 months.

***

Notable, I think, that this contemplates a kid playing BEFORE there is a bus route in his area.  (bone fide change or establishment of bus routes).  Starts to give a potential idea of where the bus route specification may have come from and why it's there.

 

The Tullahoma zone is the city limit. The morons at Fayetteville City should have set it the same. I dealt with the TSSAA for over 12 years and know eligibility inside and out. You know a little law, and nothing about eligibility apparently.  

[BigTime1950]

2 hours ago, MountainTroll said:

I haven't been following this whole thing very closely, but I know one thing. This is T$$AA's gig. They write, interpret, and arbitrate the rules. They always win. Schools are voluntary members of the organization and agree to abide by the rules, as interpreted and enforced by the T$$AA. All of the sporting events and playoffs are sanctioned by the T$$AA, and they determine who is allowed to participate and who is not.

T$$AA will win.

 

T$$AA lost to BA. Maybe there is some hope.

[rlh]

1 hour ago, BigTime1950 said:

T$$AA lost to BA. Maybe there is some hope.

Actually, the didn't win in the final case in front of the U.S. Supreme Court in 2007.  It was 9 - 0 against B.A. 

 

Edit:  https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/legal/article/20401048/supreme-court-rules-for-tssaa-against-brentwood-academy

Edited November 1, 2019 by rlh

[DutchMantel]

49 minutes ago, rlh said:

Actually, the didn't win in the final case in front of the U.S. Supreme Court in 2007.  It was 9 - 0 against B.A. 

 

Edit:  https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/legal/article/20401048/supreme-court-rules-for-tssaa-against-brentwood-academy

You are correct. I said this in the other off-shoot thread too. Basically everyone trying to make a case for Fayetteville is beating a dead horse. 
 Do I agree with how the TSSAA governs and makes decisions? No, not at all. I don’t like how the player was cleared at the beginning of the season and then deemed ineligible the last week of the season. Maybe the school didn’t provide sufficient proof,  or thought they did at the time, that the said player was within rights to play. Either way, both sides should be transparent with their arguments of what has lead to this point.

 It’s been said before, multiple times; membership is voluntary. You agree to the rules and bylaws set forth by said association when you join. No one will ever win an argument when the person you are arguing with knows and sets the rules you argue by. 
 
 The TSSAA deals with suits every year, whether you hear about them or not. This is nothing new to them. They will fight this tooth and nail to not let a legal precedent be set against them. Fayetteville is an amateur fighting in a professional world. In the end they won’t win or even come close. 

[CaptainJackRackam]

After continuing to read more and more post about this situation and knowing of other situations were the TSSAA has blatantly ignored or decided to pick which rules and violations should be looked over or enforced, I hope the court sides with Fayetteville. If that does happen, the TSSAA administration as a whole should be investigated to see if proof can be found of other cases that’s been handled improperly!

 Again, just my opinion! 
 

Proof of a QB playing in a unsanctioned All Star game in another state while still enrolled in a TN school before starting his Senior yr! 

Edited November 1, 2019 by CaptainJackRackam

[GHSblackhelmet]

3 hours ago, OLD PIRATE said:

Mtn Troll, Old Pirate & a host others well remember SM meteoric rise the fame. That thought in mind, back then every SM poster was in denial and acted as thou theys were insulted with the attention they received regarding transfers. That scenario continues today by others. Questions, 1. Does you see similarities of programs getting unwanted attention for questionable transfer to fill immediate position needs?  2. Is there a time when supporters openly acknowledge their wrong doing?  OP says the only thing most ever heard is, We didn’t know what we were doing is illegal or We thought we were doing everything by the book or the TSSAA is wrong with their interpretation of their rules! Jest wondering, does anyone know or heard a program simply say, We got caught, we were cheating, We hope the TSSAA punishes all those doing what we got caught doing!  One thing is for sure,  Cheating programs are like inmates, All are innocent!  LOPAO 

LOL cage rattled. This has to be the longest and most documented case of cage rattling in medical history. Someday some young scholar will do a thesis on how hard your cage was rattled in 2019 and win a Nobel Prize. LOBHAO!!

[MountainTroll]

3 hours ago, OLD PIRATE said:

Mtn Troll, Old Pirate & a host others well remember SM meteoric rise the fame. That thought in mind, back then every SM poster was in denial and acted as thou theys were insulted with the attention they received regarding transfers. That scenario continues today by others. Questions, 1. Does you see similarities of programs getting unwanted attention for questionable transfer to fill immediate position needs?  2. Is there a time when supporters openly acknowledge their wrong doing?  OP says the only thing most ever heard is, We didn’t know what we were doing is illegal or We thought we were doing everything by the book or the TSSAA is wrong with their interpretation of their rules! Jest wondering, does anyone know or heard a program simply say, We got caught, we were cheating, We hope the TSSAA punishes all those doing what we got caught doing!  One thing is for sure,  Cheating programs are like inmates, All are innocent!  LOPAO