Four class basketball

[Observation]

2 hours ago, warmachine7954 said:

What school plays an in district school with 2x their enrollment?

I know in District 12AA Forrest and Community have around 500 students and both play in 2A in football. Nolensville, Giles and Marshall play 4A in football and Magnet does not have football. Nolensville has an enrollment of over 1,000 closer to 1100 I believe. In region play you have AAA schools who play other AAA schools with almost double enrollment so it does happen. 

There are small programs that for sure year end and year out could compete against bigger schools no question. I think the majority though would struggle. I think the law of average is that out of every 10 students that 1 would be a solid athlete in one sport or the other and one out of every 25 would be an exceptional athlete meaning to be able to play multiple sports. So just using that logic having schools with 900 - 1000 students playing in districts and regions with schools with 500 -600 does create a competitive disadvantage. Isn't that why the TSSAA went to more classes in football or was that strictly a money generating issue? I was just curious as to what their logic was for 6 classes. 

There for sure is no easy answer because there is no way to solve every schools issue but I think we can all agree that having 6 and 3 in football and 3 and 2 in hoops is not working. Good topic and good points by all. 

[warmachine7954]

3 hours ago, Observation said:

I know in District 12AA Forrest and Community have around 500 students and both play in 2A in football. Nolensville, Giles and Marshall play 4A in football and Magnet does not have football. Nolensville has an enrollment of over 1,000 closer to 1100 I believe. In region play you have AAA schools who play other AAA schools with almost double enrollment so it does happen. 

Division I: Basketball, Baseball, Softball

Class	No. of Schools	Enrollment Range
Class A	112	0-494
Class AA	111	495-1033
Class AAA	112	1034 and greater

 I ask because that's the only real case for 4 classes. It does make a difference if a school has 500 and another has 1000. 

335 teams for basketball divided by 4 is 83 (+/- 1)  teams in 4 classes. 

What is the begining and end of each class?

 

[toinemac]

2 hours ago, warmachine7954 said:

Division I: Basketball, Baseball, Softball

Class	No. of Schools	Enrollment Range
Class A	112	0-494
Class AA	111	495-1033
Class AAA	112	1034 and greater

 I ask because that's the only real case for 4 classes. It does make a difference if a school has 500 and another has 1000. 

335 teams for basketball divided by 4 is 83 (+/- 1)  teams in 4 classes. 

What is the begining and end of each class?

 

A would be 84 schools from 0-389

AA would be 84 from from 391-738

AAA would be 84 from 741-1190

AAAA would be 83 from 1192 and up

Based on the current numbers.

[FootballFan51]

11 hours ago, twopairsofgloves said:

We talking gates in baseball? C'mon man. 

May be irrelevant with your team, but not around here.

[OrangeGuru]

22 hours ago, warmachine7954 said:

Dyer County didn't have that problem until they moved to AAA.

 

21 hours ago, warmachine7954 said:

What school plays an in district school with 2x their enrollment?

True. DC didnt have a problem and was highly competitive when were in a classification with schools closer to their current size. With a move up to AAA and being one of the smaller In classification they can be competitive but not as successful year end year out competing with schools double the student population.  As is the case with other schools who are or have been just above the cut offs. It isnt a issue only DC faces. 

I didnt say anyone's district has schools has schools double the size, although there are schools who do as referenced by previous post, but referred to the Regional when the tournament starts. Although Memphis has schools that choose to play up classifications.  But you can not really judge based on the ridiculous way players can transfer from school to school every year so a school of 500 students can have a collection of players were 15 players in the senior class go on to play college ball. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by OrangeGuru

[warmachine7954]

10 hours ago, OrangeGuru said:

 

True. DC didnt have a problem and was highly competitive when were in a classification with schools closer to their current size. With a move up to AAA and being one of the smaller In classification they can be competitive but not as successful year end year out competing with schools double the student population.  As is the case with other schools who are or have been just above the cut offs. It isnt a issue only DC faces. 

I didnt say anyone's district has schools has schools double the size, although there are schools who do as referenced by previous post, but referred to the Regional when the tournament starts. Although Memphis has schools that choose to play up classifications.  But you can not really judge based on the ridiculous way players can transfer from school to school every year so a school of 500 students can have a collection of players were 15 players in the senior class go on to play college ball. 

Kids do transfer in Memphis. However, it's not as rampant as many think. Many times the players that move around aren't that "good" and are searching for a place to play the way they want. There are school in Memphis/Shelby County that recruit kids away from schools just for the sake of taking another schools players. I'ev seen it happen recently. Kids that have played at a school for 2-3 years will tranfer to a school where they think will be better for them only to not make the team or get the amount of playing time they thought. 

The word is that Collierville (1st or 2nd beiggest school in the state) is really trying to make basketball a priority and have been searching kids out.

The issue DC and other large rural schools face is the sport itself. Boy's Basketball is not a traditionally  strong sport in rural areas no matter the class. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by warmachine7954

[OrangeGuru]

1 hour ago, warmachine7954 said:

Kids do transfer in Memphis. However, it's not as rampant as many think. Many times the players that move around aren't that "good" and are searching for a place to play the way they want. There are school in Memphis/Shelby County that recruit kids away from schools just for the sake of taking another schools players. I'ev seen it happen recently. Kids that have played at a school for 2-3 years will tranfer to a school where they think will be better for them only to not make the team or get the amount of playing time they thought. 

The word is that Collierville (1st or 2nd beiggest school in the state) is really trying to make basketball a priority and have been searching kids out.

The issue DC and other large rural schools face is the sport itself. Boy's Basketball is not a traditionally  strong sport in rural areas no matter the class. 

How does one become considered traditionally strong? I think a major measurement in making that sometimes arguable judgment is consistently sending a representative to the Glass house and looking at least at the Sub State match ups. The large rural schools compete very well within themselves especially in their districts. But again in match up with, lets say, larger urban schools it gets to be a numbers game with the occasional break through from " rural" schools. More often than not, the substate will be dominated by the district with larger schools because of a larger talent pool. Its not that talent does not exist in rural areas but there just a greater abundance just by number of students in urban areas.

Using DC and based on 2018 student enrollment numbers for basketball, DC has 1216 students which is right in the middle of their district of student enrollment. In order to advance to be able to championship level, they constantly have to face schools the have as much as 104% greater student population which would be Bartlett with 2513 students.  Its not unique to DC or a rural thing, but its a numbers game also. I think you can back that up by looking who consistently comes out of the regions to Sub State and State Finals. Not taking into account the former Penny Hardaway factor and an break through from a District 13 little brother, more often than not, its the big boys in Shelby like Bartlett, White Station, Houston and others.

If fair competition is what you looking for then you should be able to more closely pair schools up in basketball and other sports as you do football.  Its kind of like if you have a choice between a good big man and a good little guard, who is the coach usually going to go with? The big guy. Just my thoughts.

[warmachine7954]

52 minutes ago, OrangeGuru said:

How does one become considered traditionally strong? I think a major measurement in making that sometimes arguable judgment is consistently sending a representative to the Glass house and looking at least at the Sub State match ups. The large rural schools compete very well within themselves especially in their districts. But again in match up with, lets say, larger urban schools it gets to be a numbers game with the occasional break through from " rural" schools. More often than not, the substate will be dominated by the district with larger schools because of a larger talent pool. Its not that talent does not exist in rural areas but there just a greater abundance just by number of students in urban areas.

Using DC and based on 2018 student enrollment numbers for basketball, DC has 1216 students which is right in the middle of their district of student enrollment. In order to advance to be able to championship level, they constantly have to face schools the have as much as 104% greater student population which would be Bartlett with 2513 students.  Its not unique to DC or a rural thing, but its a numbers game also. I think you can back that up by looking who consistently comes out of the regions to Sub State and State Finals. Not taking into account the former Penny Hardaway factor and an break through from a District 13 little brother, more often than not, its the big boys in Shelby like Bartlett, White Station, Houston and others.

If fair competition is what you looking for then you should be able to more closely pair schools up in basketball and other sports as you do football.  Its kind of like if you have a choice between a good big man and a good little guard, who is the coach usually going to go with? The big guy. Just my thoughts.

Science Hill would be a school that had strong tradition (not recently), Gleason and Bradford girl's have a tradition. Schools that consitenly win games and go to state have a tradition. 

I will have to find the study I read years ago about sports in urban, suburban, and rural areas.

Boy's sports in Urban schools where strongest in Basketball and track and field while performing poorly in baseball, golf, tennis and middle of the road in football. While suburan school performed well in baseball, football, golf, tennis, lacrosse but were poor in basketball and track and field. Then the rural schools were better in football and baseball but were bad in basketball and track and field.

It was a very intersting study. 

[twopairsofgloves]

On 12/3/2019 at 8:21 PM, toinemac said:

A would be 84 schools from 0-389

AA would be 84 from from 391-738

AAA would be 84 from 741-1190

AAAA would be 83 from 1192 and up

Based on the current numbers.

Bingo

[twopairsofgloves]

On 12/3/2019 at 8:57 PM, FootballFan51 said:

May be irrelevant with your team, but not around here.

Not irrelevant, but not worth throwing out four classes for lol. 

[warmachine7954]

26 minutes ago, twopairsofgloves said:

Bingo

AAAA would still have the problem of schools with 1200 playing schools with 2000. That's been the argument so far.

[OrangeGuru]

20 minutes ago, warmachine7954 said:

AAAA would still have the problem of schools with 1200 playing schools with 2000. That's been the argument so far.

Agreed. a school with 1200 students playing one with 2400 is too big of a gap. Especially as Warmachince has made the case for a rural schools not being as competitive in basketball. I would make case the major sports such as baseball, basketball and football.