Shot clock

[CoachAnderson]

32 minutes ago, 13sports said:

Not sure where you got the numbers for schools etc.  In Tennessee there are 332 Public schools playing basketball and 72 Private schools playing basketball.  Comparison of the two states has no bearing any way.  Coaches will adapt if the shot clock comes about.  

404 school in TN playing basketball and not 703....even better; less schools to worry about when shot clock implementation happens. Numbers came from high-schools.com. (HS's, not number of HS's playing bball). I compared the two states to show that they are similar in size (and population) and that it has been successfully implemented in states of similar size (to avoid comparing TN w/CA).

Change is a good thing! The international game is quickly catching up to the US and the shot clock is used nearly everywhere (at almost every age) except here, in the US; and I don't think it's a coincidence. Too many people are quick to complain but slow to bring solutions. IMO the shot clock IS one of those solutions. I've also noticed that the majority of shot clock complaints come from fans, parents and even a few (old) coaches, but rarely from the actual participants. (Isn't it about the players anyways? It's definitely not about the adults, coaches included). I've given dozens of reasons why a shot clock should be implemented on other threads (on this message board and others) over the last 10+ years yet the only rebuttal is money and "just cause".

Edited September 7, 2021 by CoachAnderson
(added 1st sentence)

[YouAlreadyKnow]

17 hours ago, CoachAnderson said:

404 school in TN playing basketball and not 703....even better; less schools to worry about when shot clock implementation happens. Numbers came from high-schools.com. (HS's, not number of HS's playing bball). I compared the two states to show that they are similar in size (and population) and that it has been successfully implemented in states of similar size (to avoid comparing TN w/CA).

Change is a good thing! The international game is quickly catching up to the US and the shot clock is used nearly everywhere (at almost every age) except here, in the US; and I don't think it's a coincidence. Too many people are quick to complain but slow to bring solutions. IMO the shot clock IS one of those solutions. I've also noticed that the majority of shot clock complaints come from fans, parents and even a few (old) coaches, but rarely from the actual participants. (Isn't it about the players anyways? It's definitely not about the adults, coaches included). I've given dozens of reasons why a shot clock should be implemented on other threads (on this message board and others) over the last 10+ years yet the only rebuttal is money and "just cause".

I am with you Coach Anderson

[YouAlreadyKnow]

19 hours ago, Observation said:

I will respectfully disagree. This should already be going on. Having a 30 second clock is not going to improve this. You have 32 minutes to execute your game plan. Good teams do and bad teams do not. The only time the shot clock would come into play is in the 4th quarter. So why add something that will not affect the outcome but to a handful of games? 

Oh for sure. Respect!!! disagreement done the right way leads to change and new ideas!

[Observation]

17 hours ago, CoachAnderson said:

404 school in TN playing basketball and not 703....even better; less schools to worry about when shot clock implementation happens. Numbers came from high-schools.com. (HS's, not number of HS's playing bball). I compared the two states to show that they are similar in size (and population) and that it has been successfully implemented in states of similar size (to avoid comparing TN w/CA).

Change is a good thing! The international game is quickly catching up to the US and the shot clock is used nearly everywhere (at almost every age) except here, in the US; and I don't think it's a coincidence. Too many people are quick to complain but slow to bring solutions. IMO the shot clock IS one of those solutions. I've also noticed that the majority of shot clock complaints come from fans, parents and even a few (old) coaches, but rarely from the actual participants. (Isn't it about the players anyways? It's definitely not about the adults, coaches included). I've given dozens of reasons why a shot clock should be implemented on other threads (on this message board and others) over the last 10+ years yet the only rebuttal is money and "just cause".

So I am curious as to what solution the shot clock is to what problem? The game is not slowing down in Tennessee it is speeding up. Games are in the 60s and 70's. Shots are being taken well under 30 seconds. Is a shot clock going to create better fundamentals? What positive would a shot clock bring to Tennessee high school basketball where less than 1% of all participants will play college basketball?

[CoachAnderson]

8 hours ago, Observation said:

So I am curious as to what solution the shot clock is to what problem? The game is not slowing down in Tennessee it is speeding up. Games are in the 60s and 70's. Shots are being taken well under 30 seconds. Is a shot clock going to create better fundamentals? What positive would a shot clock bring to Tennessee high school basketball where less than 1% of all participants will play college basketball?

Fair enough. Other than money and "just because" (only 1%...which is incorrect, college is closer to 3.5%, LOL) why are you against it? Do you think it'll hurt the game? Not sure if you are / were a coach, will it effect your coaching philosophy? Why are we (US) the only place that doesn't use it? Kids in Europe aren't going pro at a higher percentage than US kids.

Not sure why we (the royal we...USA) are adamant 9 y.o.'s should play on a 10' hoop with a mens ball (size 7)  but varsity HS players can't play with a shot clock. In Europe 13 year olds play with a size 6 ball and a :24 shot clock. IMO men's Olympic basketball was beautiful to watch and an indication of the games worldwide evolution. (part of the beauty is IMO FIBA rules, which we played with when I coached HS in Puerto Rico).

A shot clock should (theoretically) lead to more possessions, allow coaches an opportunity to grow (2 for 1's, EOQ and EOG strategy on both O and D), reward teams for playing team defense,  more excitement for the fans, remain current with an ever revolving game, prevents teams from stalling, gets players better (can't hide with a shot clock), forces players to make decisions vs 10 passes before running a set or looking to score, nearly every player I know prefer it, etc.

If you're a defensive coach, you should LOVE IT! Forcing teams into a bad shot after digging in defensively is what defensive teams should pride themselves on.  

 

[Bkbfan4ever]

On 9/6/2021 at 9:02 PM, UTRok said:

That is exactly what they said about the 3 point line.

And it has changed the game.  No post play, 7 footers shooting 3’s and I personally believe fundamentals are terrible.  2 on 1 breaks end up with a bad 3 point shot often.  Not saying it’s been bad but it did bring bad things 

shot clock in high school is a terrible idea. Nothing but bad

[CoachAnderson]

1 hour ago, Bkbfan4ever said:

And it has changed the game.  No post play, 7 footers shooting 3’s and I personally believe fundamentals are terrible.  2 on 1 breaks end up with a bad 3 point shot often.  Not saying it’s been bad but it did bring bad things 

shot clock in high school is a terrible idea. Nothing but bad

Did the above mentioned items exist in the 80's, 90's and 2000's or has it progressively gotten worse over time? 

No post play, 7'ers shooting 3fg's and terrible fundamentals sound more like a byproduct of poor development / coaching and stat nerds falling in love with analytics, not the 3fg line that was implemented over 40 years ago.  

Curious; (1) what is your opinion of a HS shot clock based on? (2) Are you a coach or fan?

[MichaelMyers76]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:23 PM, CoachAnderson said:

Did the above mentioned items exist in the 80's, 90's and 2000's or has it progressively gotten worse over time? 

No post play, 7'ers shooting 3fg's and terrible fundamentals sound more like a byproduct of poor development / coaching and stat nerds falling in love with analytics, not the 3fg line that was implemented over 40 years ago.  

Curious; (1) what is your opinion of a HS shot clock based on? (2) Are you a coach or fan?

3 pt line was implemented in 1987. 34 years.

A shot clock will only eliminate the strategy of stalling. The same teams will hurry to take the same bad shots. The same lack of fundamental skills being taught will still be evident. It will only eliminate stalling which by the way is a strategy to help a lesser talented team overcome their talent deficiency. 99% of those wanting a shot clock are simply trying to eliminate a strategy they don't like.

Not needed simply because the stall is just not used that often and teams are certainly already putting a bad shot up within 30 seconds every play.

And yes, 30+ years of coaching experience at high school level.

 

[captnoname]

On 9/7/2021 at 3:56 PM, CoachAnderson said:

404 school in TN playing basketball and not 703....even better; less schools to worry about when shot clock implementation happens. Numbers came from high-schools.com. (HS's, not number of HS's playing bball). I compared the two states to show that they are similar in size (and population) and that it has been successfully implemented in states of similar size (to avoid comparing TN w/CA).

Change is a good thing! The international game is quickly catching up to the US and the shot clock is used nearly everywhere (at almost every age) except here, in the US; and I don't think it's a coincidence. Too many people are quick to complain but slow to bring solutions. IMO the shot clock IS one of those solutions. I've also noticed that the majority of shot clock complaints come from fans, parents and even a few (old) coaches, but rarely from the actual participants. (Isn't it about the players anyways? It's definitely not about the adults, coaches included). I've given dozens of reasons why a shot clock should be implemented on other threads (on this message board and others) over the last 10+ years yet the only rebuttal is money and "just cause".

Well said and I agree 100%.. been waiting for this to get passed by NFHS anyway. Want to grow the game? This is one thing that can help grow the game. 

[captnoname]

On 9/8/2021 at 6:36 PM, CoachAnderson said:

Fair enough. Other than money and "just because" (only 1%...which is incorrect, college is closer to 3.5%, LOL) why are you against it? Do you think it'll hurt the game? Not sure if you are / were a coach, will it effect your coaching philosophy? Why are we (US) the only place that doesn't use it? Kids in Europe aren't going pro at a higher percentage than US kids.

Not sure why we (the royal we...USA) are adamant 9 y.o.'s should play on a 10' hoop with a mens ball (size 7)  but varsity HS players can't play with a shot clock. In Europe 13 year olds play with a size 6 ball and a :24 shot clock. IMO men's Olympic basketball was beautiful to watch and an indication of the games worldwide evolution. (part of the beauty is IMO FIBA rules, which we played with when I coached HS in Puerto Rico).

A shot clock should (theoretically) lead to more possessions, allow coaches an opportunity to grow (2 for 1's, EOQ and EOG strategy on both O and D), reward teams for playing team defense,  more excitement for the fans, remain current with an ever revolving game, prevents teams from stalling, gets players better (can't hide with a shot clock), forces players to make decisions vs 10 passes before running a set or looking to score, nearly every player I know prefer it, etc.

If you're a defensive coach, you should LOVE IT! Forcing teams into a bad shot after digging in defensively is what defensive teams should pride themselves on.  

 

Coach Anderson... THIS IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! 100% YES YES YES.. this should be every coach's dream right here. No matter if you are a Defensive guy (me) or an offensive guy this should help grow the game. 

If Coaches are against it then what they are really saying is, " I dont know how to evolve in my coaching" and that is not what we should be about. 

Heck, I am a really crazy as I think college needs the Elam Ending!

[threeball]

I have a question, maybe I'm missing something... but how does a shot clock improve fundamental skills, coaching, team defense, or anything like that?  If I'm not mistaken, the good teams are those proficient in those areas already.  In my observation, the professional and college game have many poor possessions because of the shot clock winding down.  These are guys who are the top players, and coaches, and still they struggle to get better than 50% of quality shots; not make those shots...  most of those shots are not by a set play or some grand design, rather give the ball to your best player and high ball screen.  Let's look at the numbers...

In the NBA, according to nba.com/stats, there were 516 total players who took a shot at the end of the shot clock (4 secs or less).  Of those 516 players (some who only shot 1 time for 100%) only 69 were over 50% makes (that is 13.4% for you math nerds).  Even deeper, the 50 players who took the most shots at the end the shot clock, obviously the best players on the teams, (thus the world) averaged only 36.32% FG shooting (2's and 3's combined).  

I'm not saying I have all the answers, but by the evidence, it doesn't seem like the shot clock helps any player with fundamentals, shooting %, preparation for late game situations, etc... which all of those should be practiced during the actual practice anyway.  Good coaches and teams are practicing those.  What I do see, is the best coaches in the world, resort to giving their best player or playmaker the ball with a high ball screen near the end of the shot clock.  

Also, the average per game scoring has actually been down from the previous averages for the states that have implemented the shot clock.  The reason is that the defense can take advantage of the clock and do some creative things to hinder the offensive flow. Thus, the fact again, at the end of the shot clock, the best players get the ball in a high ball screen and are relied upon to make a play.  If the best players in the world average 36.32%, what do you think an average high school player will shoot? 

While I like the idea of being creative defensively, and causing some havoc that way, I must question whether or not the rules should change to hinder the 97% of players. 

[ClaboCrazy1961]

Elam ending is an interesting fix to fouling or stalling at the end of the game