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Shot clock


mondo44
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2 hours ago, captnoname said:

Understand gentlemen, I am not putting down anyone's view on the shot clock and I do understand the hesitancy to take it on as a coach. I used to say that if the shot clock came to high school I would quit coaching high school basketball. I changed my mind after a couple of months of watching and working in a state that was experimenting with the shot clock. 

It was a lot of fun and I learned so much from it. I am on board with it and I hope it comes to Tennessee sooner rather than later. 

What do you as coaches think about the ELAM ending for high school? For basketball in general? 

I said it before I would love to have it in high school.

I love the idea of implementing the ELAM ending, but I think it is way too radical for a lot of coaches.

Coach Troy Allen has used it for years at his summer team camp play days. 

I proposed use of the ELAM ending for boys and girls JV games this year in my league. I think using it on a trial basis (1 year) in JV is an appropriate place. It should also help with keeping JV games on schedule. Too many JV games are forced to play 6-7 min quarters or 16-20 minute running clock halves to stay on schedule. (***Speaking of staying on schedule, I will never understand the girls HC's that want their girls on the floor for 45 mins prior to their game. Trust me, the extra shooting time isn't going to help. LOL). It doesn't cost any extra money or require an extra person (most of the anti shot clockers chief complaint) and it makes the ending a lot more exciting.

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It's not about being broken. It's about the evolution of the game. NBA 3 point line is what 4' longer than the high school line? Bad shots have been taken since the start of basketball. Wonder what the players want? If you ask and the ones I have are in favor of it. I talked to several at a fall league yesterday. After league games yesterday I asked coaches I knew if I could ask their team a question. I asked would you want a shot clock? Two team one player said no. At this point it's a done deal and just a matter of time.

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On 9/18/2021 at 6:52 PM, Bkbfan4ever said:

This is nuts.  Elam ending, shot clock.  What’s next 7 fouls

the high school game is not broken.  It doesn’t need fixing.  It’s for the kids not all these people who can’t play.  Let the kids play and stay out of it

Some people are trying to remove the part of the game that I enjoy best...it's much more impressive to me for an "inferior" team to figure a way to win than just see the biggest or best athletes overpower their opponent. 

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On 9/18/2021 at 6:52 PM, Bkbfan4ever said:

This is nuts.  Elam ending, shot clock.  What’s next 7 fouls

the high school game is not broken.  It doesn’t need fixing.  It’s for the kids not all these people who can’t play.  Let the kids play and stay out of it

I agree. It is for the kids. You poll the kids and see what they say... It would be close to unanimous for a shot clock. 

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11 hours ago, tradertwo said:

Some people are trying to remove the part of the game that I enjoy best...it's much more impressive to me for an "inferior" team to figure a way to win than just see the biggest or best athletes overpower their opponent. 

the Inferior team might need to get better... With 4 classifications there should not be an issue of a consistently inferior team. 

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57 minutes ago, YouAlreadyKnow said:

the Inferior team might need to get better... With 4 classifications there should not be an issue of a consistently inferior team. 

Most every game played consists of one team better (player wise) than the other...the mental aspect of the game is just as important as the physical in determining who wins on a particular night. Strategy, shot selection, teamwork, technique, and determination all have nothing to do with who's bigger, faster, or more athletic; and forcing quicker shots eliminates a large portion of the strategical scope of what can be done to counteract physical advantages. 

  I could use your logic as a counterpoint...the more "talented" team might need to play smarter if strategy is a problem for them. To force a style of play ruins the essence of the game for me...I love watching two talented teams run the floor and change possession every 15 seconds, but I also get a lot of satisfaction watching a defensive, ball control team defeat those teams by imposing their will as to how the game is played. 

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19 minutes ago, tradertwo said:

Most every game played consists of one team better (player wise) than the other...the mental aspect of the game is just as important as the physical in determining who wins on a particular night. Strategy, shot selection, teamwork, technique, and determination all have nothing to do with who's bigger, faster, or more athletic; and forcing quicker shots eliminates a large portion of the strategical scope of what can be done to counteract physical advantages. 

  I could use your logic as a counterpoint...the more "talented" team might need to play smarter if strategy is a problem for them. To force a style of play ruins the essence of the game for me...I love watching two talented teams run the floor and change possession every 15 seconds, but I also get a lot of satisfaction watching a defensive, ball control team defeat those teams by imposing their will as to how the game is played. 

Valid points. 

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8 hours ago, YouAlreadyKnow said:

I agree. It is for the kids. You poll the kids and see what they say... It would be close to unanimous for a shot clock. 

Poll the kids and they also say school isn’t necessary.  Games not broken and doesn’t need to evolve.  Leave it alone. The 97% and less talented teams should have the ability to strategize and win.  

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16 hours ago, Bkbfan4ever said:

Poll the kids and they also say school isn’t necessary.  Games not broken and doesn’t need to evolve.  Leave it alone. The 97% and less talented teams should have the ability to strategize and win.  

We just agree to disagree. However, I am not saying the game is broken. It is a beautiful game that changes lives daily. If you are not evolving you are devolving. Change is a good thing

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The game is not broken.  I hear on this post about growing the game... i question is our game dying?  Is the point about growing the game for more student-athletes to play?  If not, in what way are we trying to grow the game?  I'm not sure players quit playing basketball because they don't play with a shot clock.  Nonetheless, I see the value in all the points that have been made.  Both sides.  I, however, am not in favor due to the question that still yet to be answered:  Why change the game for 3% when the 97% will not need it.  The major reason that most people want to establish a shot clock to "prepare kids for the next level".  There are other places for that... and only 3% get that chance anyway. 

Also, the great John Wooden once said in his 12 lessons of leadership:  " Seek significant change."  I'm good with change... but not all change is good. 

The other biggest reason for shot clock is to quit allowing teams to stall the ball.  First, the team that is stalling is most likely a lesser talented team and using that strategy to have a better chance of winning (which about 85% of the time that doesn't happen anyway, but gives a closer game).  Stalling only occurs in about 1% of games nationally.  That's not enough for me to decide to change a rule. Also, shouldn't the defense try to "steal" the ball if another team has it?  If ateam is getting stalled on, shouldn't they turn up the pressure and trap more.  The offense shouldn't "have" to give the ball away to the other team... if you want, take it. 

European players are seemingly more fundamentally sound that American players.  I wouldn't say all of them however. We onlysee the better teams, leagues, games, players on film/video... not the majority of them.   Captnoname said it right though, they practice much more than Americans... they  routinely put in 6-8 hours daily vs 2-3 for Americans.  That is probably why they are more fundamental much more than implementing the shot clock.  

Someone mentioned that coaches who don't want the shot clock are just being lazy and scared of change.  Not a good assumption... I don't want a shot clock, I coach in a very tough league, and I consider myself to be a very diligent worker.  I am always trying to be creative and innovative... to give my teams the best chance they can have to win.  We have played multiple different styles... and we have won games in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 100's, and even 110's all in the same year.  We play a style that gives the best chance of winning vs our opponents. 

I'm all for change and innovation, however, I don't feel this would be the best case.  I would rather have a 4 point line than a shot clock.  Less variables that could go wrong, plus the spacing would become so much better in the game, thus allowing more skilled players to make greater impact.  Just a thought. 

Edited by threeball
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On 9/21/2021 at 9:21 AM, YouAlreadyKnow said:

We just agree to disagree. However, I am not saying the game is broken. It is a beautiful game that changes lives daily. If you are not evolving you are devolving. Change is a good thing

The Shot Clock is not evolving the game. The shot clock's only purpose was to prevant teams from stalling and losing fans for professional sports. The NBA introduced it in 1954 the NCAA in 1985. 

I coached overseas with a shot clock in HS. In 2 seasons we never had a shot clock violation because the 35 sec clock was never in play because the teams, no matter how good or bad, they were were constantly taking quick shots. The team that I coached was bigger, more athletic, and stronger than every team we played. 2 seasons, 2 losses and destroyed just about everyone we played just because we physically out mathced people. We didn't have good basketball players or highly skilled players we were just bigger, faster, and stronger.

Before the shot clock teams could work the ball, make teams play defense, and play the game to give themselves a chance to win. When that went away the level of play went down and it became Darwin's Theory.

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