Shot clock

[YouAlreadyKnow]

3 hours ago, LittleJerrySeinfeld said:

Elam ending is an interesting fix to fouling or stalling at the end of the game

This is a great idea

[captnoname]

Basketball evolves and changes just like any other game. Football, baseball, soccer, etc. and this is just one more part of the game evolving. Look at the adding of the 3 pt shot. It has good points and bad points to it but overall I think it has helped to make the game more exciting. 

The shot clock in high school (i believe) is that next step. We can talk about coaching fundamentals, shot selection, etc and good coaches do those things no matter what. What are coaches really saying when they say they don't want a shot clock? "I am not a good enough coach to keep teaching fundamentals and shot selection with shot clock" Look,  good coaches will find a way to keep coaching good basketball. I believe the majority of the coaches who don't want the shot clock are the ones who are doing as little as possible or they are just lazy and that a shot clock would make them have to work harder.

Will it be tough to go to a shot clock? Yes, but it will make better coaches and players down the road imo. Why have the Europeans & Ausies overtaken the U.S. in so many facets of the game of basketball? Fundamentals and coaching AND they do it with a shot clock with high school age players.

If you are not watching the international game then you are behind... they don't just give it to their best player at the end of the shot clock and puke up a shot. They play with pace and space and typically get good shots in their offense. Do fast shots at the end of the shot clock take place? Yes, but not nearly as much as you think. 

[YouAlreadyKnow]

20 hours ago, captnoname said:

Basketball evolves and changes just like any other game. Football, baseball, soccer, etc. and this is just one more part of the game evolving. Look at the adding of the 3 pt shot. It has good points and bad points to it but overall I think it has helped to make the game more exciting. 

The shot clock in high school (i believe) is that next step. We can talk about coaching fundamentals, shot selection, etc and good coaches do those things no matter what. What are coaches really saying when they say they don't want a shot clock? "I am not a good enough coach to keep teaching fundamentals and shot selection with shot clock" Look,  good coaches will find a way to keep coaching good basketball. I believe the majority of the coaches who don't want the shot clock are the ones who are doing as little as possible or they are just lazy and that a shot clock would make them have to work harder.

Will it be tough to go to a shot clock? Yes, but it will make better coaches and players down the road imo. Why have the Europeans & Ausies overtaken the U.S. in so many facets of the game of basketball? Fundamentals and coaching AND they do it with a shot clock with high school age players.

If you are not watching the international game then you are behind... they don't just give it to their best player at the end of the shot clock and puke up a shot. They play with pace and space and typically get good shots in their offense. Do fast shots at the end of the shot clock take place? Yes, but not nearly as much as you think. 

Great post. It is the next step in the evolution of high school basketball. It is happening all around the world and our country. Why resist it. Change is good

[Bkbfan4ever]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:23 PM, CoachAnderson said:

Did the above mentioned items exist in the 80's, 90's and 2000's or has it progressively gotten worse over time? 

No post play, 7'ers shooting 3fg's and terrible fundamentals sound more like a byproduct of poor development / coaching and stat nerds falling in love with analytics, not the 3fg line that was implemented over 40 years ago.  

Curious; (1) what is your opinion of a HS shot clock based on? (2) Are you a coach or fan?

I’m a coach too.  I’m also retired which makes me a fan.  I don’t want to go watch games and witness kids throwing up shots that have no chance of going in.  As three ball stated the NBA players can’t make those shots so what makes anyone think kids can.  This will only hurt the high school game 

[Bkbfan4ever]

On 9/13/2021 at 8:54 PM, threeball said:

I have a question, maybe I'm missing something... but how does a shot clock improve fundamental skills, coaching, team defense, or anything like that?  If I'm not mistaken, the good teams are those proficient in those areas already.  In my observation, the professional and college game have many poor possessions because of the shot clock winding down.  These are guys who are the top players, and coaches, and still they struggle to get better than 50% of quality shots; not make those shots...  most of those shots are not by a set play or some grand design, rather give the ball to your best player and high ball screen.  Let's look at the numbers...

In the NBA, according to nba.com/stats, there were 516 total players who took a shot at the end of the shot clock (4 secs or less).  Of those 516 players (some who only shot 1 time for 100%) only 69 were over 50% makes (that is 13.4% for you math nerds).  Even deeper, the 50 players who took the most shots at the end the shot clock, obviously the best players on the teams, (thus the world) averaged only 36.32% FG shooting (2's and 3's combined).  

I'm not saying I have all the answers, but by the evidence, it doesn't seem like the shot clock helps any player with fundamentals, shooting %, preparation for late game situations, etc... which all of those should be practiced during the actual practice anyway.  Good coaches and teams are practicing those.  What I do see, is the best coaches in the world, resort to giving their best player or playmaker the ball with a high ball screen near the end of the shot clock.  

Also, the average per game scoring has actually been down from the previous averages for the states that have implemented the shot clock.  The reason is that the defense can take advantage of the clock and do some creative things to hinder the offensive flow. Thus, the fact again, at the end of the shot clock, the best players get the ball in a high ball screen and are relied upon to make a play.  If the best players in the world average 36.32%, what do you think an average high school player will shoot? 

While I like the idea of being creative defensively, and causing some havoc that way, I must question whether or not the rules should change to hinder the 97% of players. 

Best information on this post.  Facts not opinions 

[ClaboCrazy1961]

On 9/14/2021 at 1:53 PM, captnoname said:

Basketball evolves and changes just like any other game. Football, baseball, soccer, etc. and this is just one more part of the game evolving. Look at the adding of the 3 pt shot. It has good points and bad points to it but overall I think it has helped to make the game more exciting. 

The shot clock in high school (i believe) is that next step. We can talk about coaching fundamentals, shot selection, etc and good coaches do those things no matter what. What are coaches really saying when they say they don't want a shot clock? "I am not a good enough coach to keep teaching fundamentals and shot selection with shot clock" Look,  good coaches will find a way to keep coaching good basketball. I believe the majority of the coaches who don't want the shot clock are the ones who are doing as little as possible or they are just lazy and that a shot clock would make them have to work harder.

Will it be tough to go to a shot clock? Yes, but it will make better coaches and players down the road imo. Why have the Europeans & Ausies overtaken the U.S. in so many facets of the game of basketball? Fundamentals and coaching AND they do it with a shot clock with high school age players.

If you are not watching the international game then you are behind... they don't just give it to their best player at the end of the shot clock and puke up a shot. They play with pace and space and typically get good shots in their offense. Do fast shots at the end of the shot clock take place? Yes, but not nearly as much as you think. 

Last time I checked, the US still plays the best basketball in the world.  I guess I am behind though.  What TV channel does European and Australian basketball air anyways?

[captnoname]

1 hour ago, LittleJerrySeinfeld said:

Last time I checked, the US still plays the best basketball in the world.  I guess I am behind though.  What TV channel does European and Australian basketball air anyways?

At the professional level? Athletically yes but the International game (Europe and Australia) are so much more fun to watch- less isolation, more team offense and defense, & just a lot more interesting to dissect. 

Don't need a TV channel- live stream or YouTube has some of the best bball on it.. FIBA (all around the world), NBL (Australian), as well as the Euro league (3 different levels of play). 

Right now athletically we are ahead of them but that difference is getting smaller and smaller. They are killing us in the skill development and coaching realm as they are more organized and unified on the national level. 

When you talk to coaches who go overseas and do clinics they will tell you that we have it backwards- they drill and skill work for 6 hours and then play maybe 2 hours. We in the U.S. do the opposite.

We should have 1 set of rules for basketball- whether in U.S. or anywhere in the world. FIBA rules imo are the best and the I think the U.S. should adopt them. It isn't gonna happen right now but maybe in the next 10-20 years is my hope.   

[captnoname]

13 hours ago, Bkbfan4ever said:

I’m a coach too.  I’m also retired which makes me a fan.  I don’t want to go watch games and witness kids throwing up shots that have no chance of going in.  As three ball stated the NBA players can’t make those shots so what makes anyone think kids can.  This will only hurt the high school game 

Like I said before if kids are throwing up bad shots then maybe there should be some better coaching going on. NBA players are playing against the best. That isn't happening on a nightly basis here in the U.S. high schools. 

Good coaching adapts and evolves. What about the ELAM ending? Think that would be good for basketball? Sure would make it more exciting. 

[captnoname]

13 hours ago, Bkbfan4ever said:

Best information on this post.  Facts not opinions 

Fact: the international world is catching up to the U.S. in basketball. 

Why? What has are they doing that we are not doing? It starts in the coaching and development level and the shot clock is a part of that process. 

Did you watch the Olympics? Do you watch any FIBA ball? Almost 22% of the NBA players are foreign born and raised (although some come here for the college experience). 10 years ago that was 7.2% and 20 years ago it was 3.1%. 

Maybe they know something we don't? That you can implement the shot clock (they start as young as 12 years old) and kids learn and adapt and the game is still fundamentally sound. The game has to change (doesn't matter the sport) and when it does good coaches continue to coach fundamental, fun, and winning basketball. 

[CoachAnderson]

21 hours ago, Bkbfan4ever said:

I’m a coach too.  I’m also retired which makes me a fan.  I don’t want to go watch games and witness kids throwing up shots that have no chance of going in.  As three ball stated the NBA players can’t make those shots so what makes anyone think kids can.  This will only hurt the high school game 

Nobody wants to watch bad teams play basketball. Bad teams are simply that, bad teams. If a coach is allowing bad shooters to continually shoot bad shots, I'd venture to say that (a) the team is really bad &/or (b) there are no clearly defined roles within the team. IMO (b) is a major coaching problem. I've always believed that my worst shooters should lead the team in FG%. 

Have you participated (coached or watched) HS games with a shot clock? We used a shot clock in WA and when I was coaching in Hawaii we used a shot clock at our annual holiday tournament. In both instances it was well received by the fans, administrations, clock workers, refs, coaches and most important; the players.

[CoachAnderson]

On 9/13/2021 at 5:54 PM, threeball said:

I have a question, maybe I'm missing something... but how does a shot clock improve fundamental skills, coaching, team defense, or anything like that?  If I'm not mistaken, the good teams are those proficient in those areas already.  In my observation, the professional and college game have many poor possessions because of the shot clock winding down.  These are guys who are the top players, and coaches, and still they struggle to get better than 50% of quality shots; not make those shots...  most of those shots are not by a set play or some grand design, rather give the ball to your best player and high ball screen.  Let's look at the numbers...

In the NBA, according to nba.com/stats, there were 516 total players who took a shot at the end of the shot clock (4 secs or less).  Of those 516 players (some who only shot 1 time for 100%) only 69 were over 50% makes (that is 13.4% for you math nerds).  Even deeper, the 50 players who took the most shots at the end the shot clock, obviously the best players on the teams, (thus the world) averaged only 36.32% FG shooting (2's and 3's combined).  

I'm not saying I have all the answers, but by the evidence, it doesn't seem like the shot clock helps any player with fundamentals, shooting %, preparation for late game situations, etc... which all of those should be practiced during the actual practice anyway.  Good coaches and teams are practicing those.  What I do see, is the best coaches in the world, resort to giving their best player or playmaker the ball with a high ball screen near the end of the shot clock.  

Also, the average per game scoring has actually been down from the previous averages for the states that have implemented the shot clock.  The reason is that the defense can take advantage of the clock and do some creative things to hinder the offensive flow. Thus, the fact again, at the end of the shot clock, the best players get the ball in a high ball screen and are relied upon to make a play.  If the best players in the world average 36.32%, what do you think an average high school player will shoot? 

While I like the idea of being creative defensively, and causing some havoc that way, I must question whether or not the rules should change to hinder the 97% of players. 

The NBA is an entertainment platform based on basketball. 

You threw out a lot of offensive stats, but one of my previous points was that it should be LOVED by defensive coaches. 

From an offensive POV, I believe there's potential for an increase in fundamentals (inc. cutting hard, reading the defense, decision making), preparation for late game situations, etc. but not necessarily an increase in FG%, just more possessions. With a shot clock, teams will need to be better prepared to break full court pressure and in turn pressure the defense with a quality primary and secondary break before the defense has an opportunity to set up their 1/2 court defense. To be able to do so offensively, fundamentals (and conditioning) will be important to a teams success.

As a coach, I like growth and change and although we disagree I appreciate your thoughts nonetheless.  

[captnoname]

Understand gentlemen, I am not putting down anyone's view on the shot clock and I do understand the hesitancy to take it on as a coach. I used to say that if the shot clock came to high school I would quit coaching high school basketball. I changed my mind after a couple of months of watching and working in a state that was experimenting with the shot clock. 

It was a lot of fun and I learned so much from it. I am on board with it and I hope it comes to Tennessee sooner rather than later. 

What do you as coaches think about the ELAM ending for high school? For basketball in general? 

I said it before I would love to have it in high school.