Cleveland at Blackman-what happened

[Doc931]

Does anyone happen to know what association the refs came from? Could explain a lot.

[Ericblair]

Blaze I agree with your comments...my observation was that it just seemed odd that in a season ending game for one team, career ending game for most on that team that one team had six technical fouls called by the same official....uniquely... one for delay of game, one for out of coaches box, one on a special needs student, and three after the game was over and only one of which involved a direct comment to the official.  Heck, I haven't seen that type of justice served since Barney Fife locked up half of Mayberry when Andy had to go to Mt Pilot.    

I've coached for years and never had a technical foul....and respect the heck out of what officials do...but it seems here that some of the players aren't the only ones that lost their cool.

Have a good day and I appreciate the discussion.

 

[TryNotToSuck]

Giving a technical foul to a special needs student has got to be the low point. I don't know what the special needs student did to warrant him/her a technical foul, but if I was officiating that game, and let's just say that special needs student were to say something personal to me (like cuss at me), then I would pull the assistant coach to the side to calm that student down. They call it "preventive officiating" for a reason. No reason to penalized Cleveland's team for what a special needs did or say. 

The coaches out of the box is a head scratcher, too. Just tell the coach to back up, and keep telling him to back up. The winner goes to state and one team has two technical fouls that are probably unnecessary reasons (not basketball reasons is what I'm trying to say). I can understand why Cleveland would be upset in that regard.

[ecu]

On 3/7/2023 at 9:15 PM, Ericblair said:

Didn't see the game and have no horse in the race but an official  that calls six technical fouls in a substate game, three after the horn blows is officiating for the wrong reasons.  Horn blows you sprint off the court...emotions are raw...not condoning bad player behavior but at game's end, what are your really accomplishing other than drawing attention to yourself... and thanks for the parenting and program management advice Blaze.  

Who was official? or where were they from?

[Beagle]

So Typical for people today. Blame the ref for bad behavior. Blame the Teacher because your kid is failing. Blame the police because some idiot cant follow simple instructions and gets arrested /shot.    Actions have consequences.

Preach that to your kids/ ball players and let them know they are NOT the boss but they are children and should behave as if every adult in a leadership position should be respected.   There is a ref shortage and now a teacher  for a reason.

 

[nope]

7 hours ago, Beagle said:

So Typical for people today. Blame the ref for bad behavior. Blame the Teacher because your kid is failing. Blame the police because some idiot cant follow simple instructions and gets arrested /shot.    Actions have consequences.

Preach that to your kids/ ball players and let them know they are NOT the boss but they are children and should behave as if every adult in a leadership position should be respected.   There is a ref shortage and now a teacher  for a reason.

 

This would suggest people are blaming refs for the loss, which (at least I'm) not. Blackman beat Cleveland, and the official lost his composure and became unhinged once the game ended.

 

Two things are allowed to be true. 

[Blaze45]

I would call a time out here.. Obviously there can be two simultaneous truths, however without doubt I

17 hours ago, nope said:

This would suggest people are blaming refs for the loss, which (at least I'm) not. Blackman beat Cleveland, and the official lost his composure and became unhinged once the game ended.

 

Two things are allowed to be true. 

I would call a time out here.. Obviously there can be two simultaneous truths, however without doubt no question who won the game or if the official gave it to one team or the other. The real issue is in the video on NFHS. The referee is leaving the court. Three players pass by him and one cusses the ref as he walks past. The ref responds with a technical as he should have. Now a second player runs his mouth and gets T'd up 

Lets pretend for a minute You are on the way out of your house when your kid and his friend walk past you and your son responds by calling you a M'F er .... You respond and his friend says your acting like a B*-ch.... Now is your response unhinged or is it justified?

I will go out on a limb and say it would never happen in your house.... assuming out of respect and that your child knows to never go there with you, If that's the case, why would we be ok with our kids/ students /athletes talking to other authority figures that way.  That is a reflection of our beliefs and what we hold to be acceptable behavior. 

Finally these technical have an impact on the season / or the season ahead next year. This means they can't play the first games. Would you want that same set of rules applied to other teams you play if they had these violations? Its' sportmanship, right, ethical and just.....isn't that the point of sports in the first place?

[nope]

4 hours ago, Blaze45 said:

I would call a time out here.. Obviously there can be two simultaneous truths, however without doubt I

I would call a time out here.. Obviously there can be two simultaneous truths, however without doubt no question who won the game or if the official gave it to one team or the other. The real issue is in the video on NFHS. The referee is leaving the court. Three players pass by him and one cusses the ref as he walks past. The ref responds with a technical as he should have. Now a second player runs his mouth and gets T'd up 

Lets pretend for a minute You are on the way out of your house when your kid and his friend walk past you and your son responds by calling you a M'F er .... You respond and his friend says your acting like a B*-ch.... Now is your response unhinged or is it justified?

I will go out on a limb and say it would never happen in your house.... assuming out of respect and that your child knows to never go there with you, If that's the case, why would we be ok with our kids/ students /athletes talking to other authority figures that way.  That is a reflection of our beliefs and what we hold to be acceptable behavior. 

Finally these technical have an impact on the season / or the season ahead next year. This means they can't play the first games. Would you want that same set of rules applied to other teams you play if they had these violations? Its' sportmanship, right, ethical and just.....isn't that the point of sports in the first place?

 

I would expect the official to not lose his composure. Officials are instructed that once a game ends, to "run to the locker room." He was strolling.

The same ref handed out 6 techs. Why was everybody being so mean to him and not the other two? 

Tech 1: #11 says something, they call a T. No problem there. 

Tech 2: T on the special needs manager. If you feel that's justified, we're just never going to be on the same page there (and the coach told the refs before the game the kid has special needs, but the kid never speaks to refs. Only the team)

Tech 3: #11 rolls the ball after a foul he didn't agree with. That's blatant disrespect, so again, no problem there.

But then, the ref lost his composure, and it's obvious. Why? Because his report wouldn't have been riddled with inaccuracies.

Here's the report:

"After the game was over and we were headed to the locker room, (a player) met me at half court and called me an (expletive). I issued him his second technical foul. (Another player) then said, 'The game is over, it don't matter, (expletive)!' He was issued a flagrant technical foul. (Tucker) then said something with a gesture, he was issued a direct technical foul (indirect tech charged to the bench during the game). (A third player) said, 'You're a (expletive)' He was issued a flagrant tech foul."

First kid, it was his first technical foul. No doubt he said something, but the report states it was the kid's second, which is false and inaccurate. Plus you would have thought the kid went out of his way to confront the official, which if you watch the video is far from the truth. He's a senior so unless he plays a spring sport, there is no punishment. 

He then gives a flagrant T to a kid who said, "What does it matter, the game is over?" That kid is also a senior, so no punishment.

HC (Tucker) gets a tech for literally waving at the official, who had just given a tech to a player once the game is over. He didn't say a word, but now he has to sit because the same ref had T'd up a special needs manager earlier in the fourth quarter.

Last kid called him something, earning a flagrant tech. But by then everything had snowballed, so I have no doubt something was said. Also, a senior, so no punishment.

So, after an official has had time to cool off, he writes up a report that is factually wrong in a number of places. But we think he kept his cool in the immediate aftermath of the game? I don't.

But to answer your question, no, I would not want kids to have to sit games in the following season because at the end of a highly emotional game that ended a season, they said something to an official (especially considering the game was over). I would have some compassion on the situation, but that's me. But I also would have run off the court and avoided a potentially toxic situation (especially considering I had the furthest to go to reach the locker room). He was walking like he was at the mall. 

The game is over; your job is done. Run off the court like your teammates did. Do your job and keep your composure like you expected these kids to do their job and keep their composure. 

I really feel bad for Blackman, because while I know there is a newspaper that covers them, more people care about what happened after the game that how Blackman actually won, which is control the pace, take good shots, play decent defense (Cleveland is far more talented, but didn't seem to have much of an offensive game plan so I can't say Blackman played great defense) and obviously Blackman made its free throws. 

I hate they got beat down today. That appeared to be a fun run that came out of nowhere.

[Blaze45]

17 hours ago, nope said:

 

I would expect the official to not lose his composure. Officials are instructed that once a game ends, to "run to the locker room." He was strolling.

The same ref handed out 6 techs. Why was everybody being so mean to him and not the other two? 

Tech 1: #11 says something, they call a T. No problem there. 

Tech 2: T on the special needs manager. If you feel that's justified, we're just never going to be on the same page there (and the coach told the refs before the game the kid has special needs, but the kid never speaks to refs. Only the team)

Tech 3: #11 rolls the ball after a foul he didn't agree with. That's blatant disrespect, so again, no problem there.

But then, the ref lost his composure, and it's obvious. Why? Because his report wouldn't have been riddled with inaccuracies.

Here's the report:

"After the game was over and we were headed to the locker room, (a player) met me at half court and called me an (expletive). I issued him his second technical foul. (Another player) then said, 'The game is over, it don't matter, (expletive)!' He was issued a flagrant technical foul. (Tucker) then said something with a gesture, he was issued a direct technical foul (indirect tech charged to the bench during the game). (A third player) said, 'You're a (expletive)' He was issued a flagrant tech foul."

First kid, it was his first technical foul. No doubt he said something, but the report states it was the kid's second, which is false and inaccurate. Plus you would have thought the kid went out of his way to confront the official, which if you watch the video is far from the truth. He's a senior so unless he plays a spring sport, there is no punishment. 

He then gives a flagrant T to a kid who said, "What does it matter, the game is over?" That kid is also a senior, so no punishment.

HC (Tucker) gets a tech for literally waving at the official, who had just given a tech to a player once the game is over. He didn't say a word, but now he has to sit because the same ref had T'd up a special needs manager earlier in the fourth quarter.

Last kid called him something, earning a flagrant tech. But by then everything had snowballed, so I have no doubt something was said. Also, a senior, so no punishment.

So, after an official has had time to cool off, he writes up a report that is factually wrong in a number of places. But we think he kept his cool in the immediate aftermath of the game? I don't.

But to answer your question, no, I would not want kids to have to sit games in the following season because at the end of a highly emotional game that ended a season, they said something to an official (especially considering the game was over). I would have some compassion on the situation, but that's me. But I also would have run off the court and avoided a potentially toxic situation (especially considering I had the furthest to go to reach the locker room). He was walking like he was at the mall. 

The game is over; your job is done. Run off the court like your teammates did. Do your job and keep your composure like you expected these kids to do their job and keep their composure. 

I really feel bad for Blackman, because while I know there is a newspaper that covers them, more people care about what happened after the game that how Blackman actually won, which is control the pace, take good shots, play decent defense (Cleveland is far more talented, but didn't seem to have much of an offensive game plan so I can't say Blackman played great defense) and obviously Blackman made its free throws. 

I hate they got beat down today. That appeared to be a fun run that came out of nowhere.

AHHHH yes ....inaccuracies... he (the ref)  would have given the number to the scorers table who ultimately keeps tabs on fouls, technical or otherwise his report on whether it was his second or not is pretty irrelevant. You are skipping over the behavior and justifying the the players actions , because the ref "didn't run off the court..... "  The only thing I can find in the TSSAA handbook is a reference that they should make every effort to leave the playing surface immediately. Nothing about you must "RUN OFF THE COURT" 

As far as special needs students go I have two of them .... One who is disabled and the other who is on the spectrum for autism, so lets put this to bed. If you were to look at either one would you recognize this immediately? Absolutely not.  My kids don't wear a badge that says I am a special needs person and I would have a come apart if they were forced to.  So did the ref know he was special needs? Do you happen to know  how obvious the managers need is or isn't to someone? If that was something to set the student apart, then let the ref know before the game.  The ref called technicals not knowing or asking "hey are you a Sr ... or do you have special needs? Oh...in that case  nevermind ... Is he supposed to conduct an investigation on every incident to determine if it should stick or not.? That's a ridiculous statement

Finally yes Blackman got whooped .... by a team who was ranked as the number 2 team in the state most of the year. Blackman was the 5 seed in the district  and maybe cracked the top 20 once.... But they won all the games they needed to get there. They knew they were the underdog all post season. As far as talent goes  Blackman had 1 Sr on the team and the majority of the starters are sophomores and freshmen. When "more talented teams don't win" and "don't have much of an offensive game plan " most folks point to coaching. When teams lose composure, most folks say it is a coaching moment..... But here we are justifying poor behavior, disrespect  and saying... It's all the ref's fault because he didn't run away, or keep his composure.  How about... don't cuss the ref.. have some respect for yourself, the school and the community your represent.