Ben Smith

[cbg]

20 hours ago, BobCorker said:

 

Again, from the TSSAA handbook. (copied below) The TSSAA restricts the amount of aid.  Each family must turn in their tax information and send it to the TSSAA.  They determine how much aid each school gets.  It may surprise you, but most kids at McCallie and Baylor pay close to the full price.   It may be better to think of each school as a business that offers a product of education and sports.   If they gave every kid a major discount, then how would they pay their bills?  Who would pay their teachers?   TN private school are unique in this aspect as most private schools do not belong to their state organization. 

McCallie has around 1000 boys in their high school but roughly 300 in the middle school.  Baylor has about 150 boys in their middle school.  Both schools relay on about 600-800 kids to "move in" in order to meet their enrollment needs in high school.  They must offer a really good product or families are not going to pay.  Or even send their 15 year old off to live on a high school campus.  Have any of you had 14/15 year olds?  How many had kids ready to go live by themselves in a dorm at age 14? 

Every school has advantages and disadvantages.   Father Ryan has a club that cost very little that draws kids from a metro area of 2 million people.  They have had a stranglehold on the youth talent of that city for 40 years. That seems like a pretty good pipeline of talent.  Then that talent can go to Father Ryan for a fraction of the cost of McCallie.  McCallie has to charge $33,000 to their middle school wrestlers before they start to develop them.  That is a pretty step price tag for middle school.   Would Father Ryan be as successful if their school was located in Lewisburg, TN and not downtown Nashville? 

TSSAA Handbook: Section 16

Financial aid may be awarded on the basis of need, but proof of such need must be filed in the TSSAA office on forms approved by the Executive Director. In order to determine the basis for need, all schools awarding financial aid shall use one of the following services: FACTS Grant and Aid Assessment (FACTS), Financial Aid for School Tuition (FAST), School and Student Scholastic Service for Financial Aid (SSS), Family Financial Needs Assessment (FFNA), Private School Aid Services, Blackbaud Tuition Management, or Tuition Aid Data Services (TADS). Schools must choose one of the companies for all student-athletes. A committee consisting of School Heads from Division II schools and one ex-officio, non-voting member from the Board of Control and Legislative Council will meet and make recommendations to the Board of Control on each student submitted. In addition, this committee will collect information from schools regarding financial aid statistics, grant procedures, and the overall financial aid program within the school. The Board of Control will then rule on all cases at the August meeting. The Board of Control shall have authority to reject the basis of need for students when in its opinion, or in the opinion of the school committee, the amount of need stated by the financial service cannot be justified.

It's funny how you mention the tuition of Father Ryan not being close to what the tuition is at Baylor, MBA or McCallie.  Rest assured that many of the Father Ryan alumni that I know are upset and have been forced to move outside of Davidson County for a public-school education, send their children to other private schools or even send their children to MBA because Father Ryan would not offer them 100% of the financial aid that they qualified for, and with MBA offering 100% of the qualified financial MBA was less expensive.  Even being a diocesan school, Father Ryan is the most expensive coed Catholic school in Tennessee and probably the Southeast. The sad part is that Father Ryan has become nothing more than a school for affluent Catholic students and families.  As the former Evansville, IN Mater Dei wrestling coach once told me, it's hard to win state championships with kids that live in homes that have three and four car garages.  The days of Father Ryan having roughly 50% of the student body being from hard-working blue-collar families has been over for a long time and I don't ever see things returning to the old ways of Father Ryan.  These things alone make the job that Pat Simpson has done at Father Ryan even more remarkable and almost unbelievable.  

Edited March 30, 2023 by cbg

[cowcatcherII]

20 hours ago, BobCorker said:

 

Again, from the TSSAA handbook. (copied below) The TSSAA restricts the amount of aid.  Each family must turn in their tax information and send it to the TSSAA.  They determine how much aid each school gets.  It may surprise you, but most kids at McCallie and Baylor pay close to the full price.   It may be better to think of each school as a business that offers a product of education and sports.   If they gave every kid a major discount, then how would they pay their bills?  Who would pay their teachers?   TN private school are unique in this aspect as most private schools do not belong to their state organization. 

McCallie has around 1000 boys in their high school but roughly 300 in the middle school.  Baylor has about 150 boys in their middle school.  Both schools relay on about 600-800 kids to "move in" in order to meet their enrollment needs in high school.  They must offer a really good product or families are not going to pay.  Or even send their 15 year old off to live on a high school campus.  Have any of you had 14/15 year olds?  How many had kids ready to go live by themselves in a dorm at age 14? 

Every school has advantages and disadvantages.   Father Ryan has a club that cost very little that draws kids from a metro area of 2 million people.  They have had a stranglehold on the youth talent of that city for 40 years. That seems like a pretty good pipeline of talent.  Then that talent can go to Father Ryan for a fraction of the cost of McCallie.  McCallie has to charge $33,000 to their middle school wrestlers before they start to develop them.  That is a pretty step price tag for middle school.   Would Father Ryan be as successful if their school was located in Lewisburg, TN and not downtown Nashville? 

TSSAA Handbook: Section 16

Financial aid may be awarded on the basis of need, but proof of such need must be filed in the TSSAA office on forms approved by the Executive Director. In order to determine the basis for need, all schools awarding financial aid shall use one of the following services: FACTS Grant and Aid Assessment (FACTS), Financial Aid for School Tuition (FAST), School and Student Scholastic Service for Financial Aid (SSS), Family Financial Needs Assessment (FFNA), Private School Aid Services, Blackbaud Tuition Management, or Tuition Aid Data Services (TADS). Schools must choose one of the companies for all student-athletes. A committee consisting of School Heads from Division II schools and one ex-officio, non-voting member from the Board of Control and Legislative Council will meet and make recommendations to the Board of Control on each student submitted. In addition, this committee will collect information from schools regarding financial aid statistics, grant procedures, and the overall financial aid program within the school. The Board of Control will then rule on all cases at the August meeting. The Board of Control shall have authority to reject the basis of need for students when in its opinion, or in the opinion of the school committee, the amount of need stated by the financial service cannot be justified.

Very informative. Thanks, Bobby!

[Gov]

Very informative, but as Paul Harvey would say, "The Rest of the Story" over 130 Million endowment and over 52 million in revenue in 2020. That's how you pay your bills. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/620475837  Tuition averages about 60% of revenue a year. The only thing I am not sure of is if the 188 million in assets includes the endowment. I would assume it does but not sure. If you compare it to Boyd Buchanan, over 90% of revenue comes from Tuition. 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Gov

[cbg]

34 minutes ago, Gov said:

Very informative, but as Paul Harvey would say, "The Rest of the Story" over 130 Million endowment and over 52 million in revenue in 2020. That's how you pay your bills. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/620475837  Tuition averages about 60% of revenue a year. The only thing I am not sure of is if the 188 million in assets includes the endowment. I would assume it does but not sure. If you compare it to Boyd Buchanan, over 90% of revenue comes from Tuition. 

The endowment should be considered an asset. 

[BobCorker]

20 hours ago, cbg said:

It's funny how you mention the tuition of Father Ryan not being close to what the tuition is at Baylor, MBA or McCallie.  Rest assured that many of the Father Ryan alumni that I know are upset and have been forced to move outside of Davidson County for a public-school education, send their children to other private schools or even send their children to MBA because Father Ryan would not offer them 100% of the financial aid that they qualified for, and with MBA offering 100% of the qualified financial MBA was less expensive.  Even being a diocesan school, Father Ryan is the most expensive coed Catholic school in Tennessee and probably the Southeast. The sad part is that Father Ryan has become nothing more than a school for affluent Catholic students and families.  As the former Evansville, IN Mater Dei wrestling coach once told me, it's hard to win state championships with kids that live in homes that have three and four car garages.  The days of Father Ryan having roughly 50% of the student body being from hard-working blue-collar families has been over for a long time and I don't ever see things returning to the old ways of Father Ryan.  These things alone make the job that Pat Simpson has done at Father Ryan even more remarkable and almost unbelievable.  

You think that McCallie, MBA, and Baylor are any different?  Tuition has more than doubled since 1993 and has changed the landscape of private schools/colleges in the US.  Working class families are being eliminated from the equation. 

 

Cost Analysis

Let’s say that a family doesn’t receive or qualify for aid at any school.  Pretend that each program identifies a 5^th grade kid as having talent and someone who they want to invest their time and energy into developing. Which is a bit of a ridiculous statement in itself.

If each program wanted to bring them in under their umbrella and start developing from middle school though high school, how much would it cost said family?

Father Ryan

NWC fees for 6^th-8^th= unknown, but let’s assume 1k per year.  $3000

Father Ryan tuition 9-12^th:  $22,100 x 4 = $88, 400

Total = $91,400

 

McCallie

6-12^th grade= 7 years x $32,880

Total = $230,160

 

Baylor

6-12^th grade= 7 years x $28,310

Total = $198,170

 

MBA

6-12^th grade= 7 years x $ 33,500

Total = $234,500

[noonesfool]

3 hours ago, BobCorker said:

You think that McCallie, MBA, and Baylor are any different?  Tuition has more than doubled since 1993 and has changed the landscape of private schools/colleges in the US.  Working class families are being eliminated from the equation. 

 

Cost Analysis

Let’s say that a family doesn’t receive or qualify for aid at any school.  Pretend that each program identifies a 5^th grade kid as having talent and someone who they want to invest their time and energy into developing. Which is a bit of a ridiculous statement in itself.

If each program wanted to bring them in under their umbrella and start developing from middle school though high school, how much would it cost said family?

Father Ryan

NWC fees for 6^th-8^th= unknown, but let’s assume 1k per year.  $3000

Father Ryan tuition 9-12^th:  $22,100 x 4 = $88, 400

Total = $91,400

 

McCallie

6-12^th grade= 7 years x $32,880

Total = $230,160

 

Baylor

6-12^th grade= 7 years x $28,310

Total = $198,170

 

MBA

6-12^th grade= 7 years x $ 33,500

Total = $234,500

Correct again. Out of the reach of most families. Our Son in law and his twin brother were boarding school students at McCallie their sophomore through their senior year. They were from Lake Jackson, Texas. This was in the mid/late 1990’s. They played football and ran track. Their Father sent them to McCallie to grow as men and to participate in a much more stringent academic setting. John told me it was the best money he ever spent. On the other hand, if the boys had failed, it would have been the biggest waste of money he had ever spent.
We sometimes put too much emphasis on athletics and miss the greater picture of developing well rounded men and women. This includes, but not limited to moral and social development, academics and enhancing an appreciation for the fine arts. If anyone knows me I’m all in on athletics, but the whole man is extremely important.

Edited March 30, 2023 by noonesfool

[cbg]

3 minutes ago, noonesfool said:

Correct again. Out of the reach of most families. Our Son in law and his twin brother were boarding school students at McCallie their sophomore through their senior year. They were from Lake Jackson, Texas. This was in the mid/late 1990’s. They played football and ran track. Their Father sent them to grow as men and to participate in a much more stringent academic setting. John told me it was the best money he ever spent. On the other hand, if the boys had failed, it would have been the biggest waist of money he had ever spent.
We sometimes put too much emphasis on athletics and miss the greater picture of developing well round men and women. This includes, but not limited to moral and social development, academics and enhancing an appreciation for the fine arts. If anyone knows me I’m all in on athletics, but the whole man is extremely important.

The old term for what you are referring to is being a Renaissance Man.  I completely agree with young men being very well rounded. 

[noonesfool]

Just now, cbg said:

The old term for what you are referring to is being a Renaissance Man.  I completely agree with young men being very well rounded. 

Another man I agree with often.

[texas23]

If the business model continues to work for each of these schools, then they will continue to do it.  If part of the business model is to not pay the significant portion of aid (like a 5th grader with potential) and to instead recruit (not a bad word, really) the 5th grader when they become an 8th or 9th grader that is now developed, well then that seems to be pretty financially smart!

[cowcatcherII]

1 hour ago, BobCorker said:

You think that McCallie, MBA, and Baylor are any different?  Tuition has more than doubled since 1993 and has changed the landscape of private schools/colleges in the US.  Working class families are being eliminated from the equation. 

 

Cost Analysis

Let’s say that a family doesn’t receive or qualify for aid at any school.  Pretend that each program identifies a 5^th grade kid as having talent and someone who they want to invest their time and energy into developing. Which is a bit of a ridiculous statement in itself.

If each program wanted to bring them in under their umbrella and start developing from middle school though high school, how much would it cost said family?

Father Ryan

NWC fees for 6^th-8^th= unknown, but let’s assume 1k per year.  $3000

Father Ryan tuition 9-12^th:  $22,100 x 4 = $88, 400

Total = $91,400

 

McCallie

6-12^th grade= 7 years x $32,880

Total = $230,160

 

Baylor

6-12^th grade= 7 years x $28,310

Total = $198,170

 

MBA

6-12^th grade= 7 years x $ 33,500

Total = $234,500

This is staggering. We might as well rename the divisions rich and poor LOL. I can't believe there are that many families that can afford these schools. 

So Bob and others that understand how the financial aid thing works in the rich division, do you think McCallie's problem has been that their administration just hasn't been on board with giving recruits the full amount of financial aid that they qualify for in comparison to Baylor and Father Ryan for instance?

By and large, what percentage of the roster of these good rich division schools do we think receives some sort of aid? Just curious. I have no clue.

[cobrakid8]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:13 AM, BobCorker said:

 

Again, from the TSSAA handbook. (copied below) The TSSAA restricts the amount of aid.  Each family must turn in their tax information and send it to the TSSAA.  They determine how much aid each school gets.  It may surprise you, but most kids at McCallie and Baylor pay close to the full price.   It may be better to think of each school as a business that offers a product of education and sports.   If they gave every kid a major discount, then how would they pay their bills?  Who would pay their teachers?   TN private school are unique in this aspect as most private schools do not belong to their state organization. 

McCallie has around 1000 boys in their high school but roughly 300 in the middle school.  Baylor has about 150 boys in their middle school.  Both schools relay on about 600-800 kids to "move in" in order to meet their enrollment needs in high school.  They must offer a really good product or families are not going to pay.  Or even send their 15 year old off to live on a high school campus.  Have any of you had 14/15 year olds?  How many had kids ready to go live by themselves in a dorm at age 14? 

Every school has advantages and disadvantages.   Father Ryan has a club that cost very little that draws kids from a metro area of 2 million people.  They have had a stranglehold on the youth talent of that city for 40 years. That seems like a pretty good pipeline of talent.  Then that talent can go to Father Ryan for a fraction of the cost of McCallie.  McCallie has to charge $33,000 to their middle school wrestlers before they start to develop them.  That is a pretty step price tag for middle school.   Would Father Ryan be as successful if their school was located in Lewisburg, TN and not downtown Nashville? 

TSSAA Handbook: Section 16

Financial aid may be awarded on the basis of need, but proof of such need must be filed in the TSSAA office on forms approved by the Executive Director. In order to determine the basis for need, all schools awarding financial aid shall use one of the following services: FACTS Grant and Aid Assessment (FACTS), Financial Aid for School Tuition (FAST), School and Student Scholastic Service for Financial Aid (SSS), Family Financial Needs Assessment (FFNA), Private School Aid Services, Blackbaud Tuition Management, or Tuition Aid Data Services (TADS). Schools must choose one of the companies for all student-athletes. A committee consisting of School Heads from Division II schools and one ex-officio, non-voting member from the Board of Control and Legislative Council will meet and make recommendations to the Board of Control on each student submitted. In addition, this committee will collect information from schools regarding financial aid statistics, grant procedures, and the overall financial aid program within the school. The Board of Control will then rule on all cases at the August meeting. The Board of Control shall have authority to reject the basis of need for students when in its opinion, or in the opinion of the school committee, the amount of need stated by the financial service cannot be justified.

A VERY large % of kids that attend both McCallie and Baylor get financial aid, it's pretty easy to go onto both their websites to see that over half the kids at McCallie get financial aid and I think I saw over 70% at Baylor receive financial aid. I looked into maybe sending my youngest to Baylor(I tried and did not like McCallie personally and went back to Soddy when I went to school). Me and my ex-wife make pretty good money and we still were getting a good amount of financial help to send him if we so chose to do so. Anyone can fill out the paperwork that the schools use to set the amount of financial aid you can receive and TSSAA goes by that amount. So it's not a small amount that receive financial aid at either school and for a middle class family it actually can be a good amount of aid you can receive. I just wasn't going to pay the money to send him there when it would be smarter for me to save that and give it to him when he goes off to college and IF he doesn't have a full ride like his older brother we can use that money saved to pay for his college. He will be well rounded as a student an athlete and a individual coming from Soddy Daisy just as he would coming from either of those overpriced private schools and if he does as well as his older brother in grades he can go to about any college he wants for free also.

 

 

 

 

[cbg]

51 minutes ago, cowcatcherII said:

This is staggering. We might as well rename the divisions rich and poor LOL. I can't believe there are that many families that can afford these schools. 

So Bob and others that understand how the financial aid thing works in the rich division, do you think McCallie's problem has been that their administration just hasn't been on board with giving recruits the full amount of financial aid that they qualify for in comparison to Baylor and Father Ryan for instance?

By and large, what percentage of the roster of these good rich division schools do we think receives some sort of aid? Just curious. I have no clue.

Roughly five years ago I was informed by someone at MBA that 80% of the student body are having their tuition paid or supplemented by someone other than their parents.  Some students have a wealthy uncle, aunt, grandparent, etc... that pay the tuition, some have educational trust funds that pay the tuition, others receive financial aid from the school, and a few receive a combination of all the above.  That leaves only 20% of the students that have the tuition paid in full by their parents.