Ben Smith

[Rasslinking]

No need to check sources. Mr Durden claims McCallie had the best coaching staff. You guys got 6th place at state this year. Haven’t won a state title since 2006?

Getting beat by Baylor is understandable, as they recruit their entire line up. But every other school ahead of you guys operate on the sane playing field.

So, if you want to beat them, you would need to bring in a bunch of recruits. Which you guys are. Pretty sure there is about 5-6 of the best 8th graders in the state attending McCallie next year, none of which were McCallie Students prior.

And let’s be real, if you were not there, they wouldn’t have most of the kids on the team.

 

[matpitts81]

I agree with you...we still have a lot to prove.  My comment was directed at your statement that we don't develop our own talent.  We're trying.  

Edited March 28, 2023 by matpitts81

[BobCorker]

2 hours ago, Rasslinking said:

No need to check sources. Mr Durden claims McCallie had the best coaching staff. You guys got 6th place at state this year. Haven’t won a state title since 2006?

Getting beat by Baylor is understandable, as they recruit their entire line up. But every other school ahead of you guys operate on the sane playing field.

So, if you want to beat them, you would need to bring in a bunch of recruits. Which you guys are. Pretty sure there is about 5-6 of the best 8th graders in the state attending McCallie next year, none of which were McCallie Students prior.

And let’s be real, if you were not there, they wouldn’t have most of the kids on the team.

 

How many Baylor kids from the traditional state title lineup wrestled for a different high school before Baylor?    How many started in middle school?  Sounds like McCallie should be in the hunt to win it next year. 

[Rasslinking]

They have 2-3 kids in their line up that wrestled in Baylor MS

But all 5 Champs were transfers and at-least 9 of the 11 medalist were transfers/move ins

I believe Joyner was the only State Medalist that went to Baylor

 

[cowcatcherII]

3 hours ago, Rasslinking said:

No need to check sources. Mr Durden claims McCallie had the best coaching staff. You guys got 6th place at state this year. Haven’t won a state title since 2006?

Getting beat by Baylor is understandable, as they recruit their entire line up. But every other school ahead of you guys operate on the sane playing field.

So, if you want to beat them, you would need to bring in a bunch of recruits. Which you guys are. Pretty sure there is about 5-6 of the best 8th graders in the state attending McCallie next year, none of which were McCallie Students prior.

And let’s be real, if you were not there, they wouldn’t have most of the kids on the team.

 

I would agree as well. When you weigh the positives and negatives of the Yost hire at McCallie, bringing Pitts in was about the only net positive I can see to this point in his tenure. Had McCallie hired Pitts for the head job, I doubt we would even be having this conversation.

All in all, the facts speak for themselves... McCallie is a far cry away from what they used to be when we referred to them as the EBE (Evil Blue Empire) on this board during the Connell era. At a place like McCallie, you just can't lose to schools like CCS and fail to have a single state finalist. 

Yost will be entering year 7 or 8 I believe and will be coaching for his job next season. If you're a McCallie backer, you would like to see some upward progression, and it's been downward regression the past few years. It sounds like Yost is making the right moves though going into a make or break season if the rumors are true regarding the recruits.

[SportsTNFan]

11 hours ago, matpitts81 said:

I agree with you...we still have a lot to prove.  My comment was directed at your statement that we don't develop our own talent.  We're trying.  

Does that also include a couple of kids outside their club that are potentially coming from the Cookeville Wrestling club and boarding next season?

Edited March 29, 2023 by SportsTNFan

[FargoStrut]

1 hour ago, SportsTNFan said:

Does that also include a couple of kids outside their club that are potentially coming from the Cavaliers Wrestling club and boarding next season?

SportsFan, I'm honestly not sure that any kid from Cavaliers Wrestling Club participated in TNAAU this year. I do know that Cookeville Youth Wrestling has a lot of kids and several of them are studs. Those are DEF 2 separate clubs. Ive heard there may be a CYW kid that furthers his education at McCallie but I haven't heard abt a Cavalier kid going there.

[wssm]

6 hours ago, Rasslinking said:

They have 2-3 kids in their line up that wrestled in Baylor MS

But all 5 Champs were transfers and at-least 9 of the 11 medalist were transfers/move ins

I believe Joyner was the only State Medalist that went to Baylor

 

I guess if a kid doesn't grow up within walking distance of their school they must be some kind of recruit. 

As far as I can tell Baylors line up at the tournament looked like this.

Phillips - Baylor Middle School
Bond - started at Baylor as a freshman. Was in the club before. Brother wrestled all 4 years at Baylor. 
Cofer - Baylor middle - did not wrestle in middle school

Hart-?

Emendorfer - came to Baylor in 8th
Askew- came to Baylor as a freshman. The only wrestler who doesn't live within 30min of Baylor. 
Tisdale - Baylor in 8th 
Sturgill - the only transfer. Moved to Chattanooga.
Phillips - started wrestling in 9th grade at Baylor
Joyner - Baylor middle
Alvarez - Baylor in 9th
Crawford - Baylor in 8th 
Stein - Baylor middle- didn't wrestle in middle 
Rose - Baylor middle - didn't wrestle in middle School 

Looks like if you didn't start at a school by the 6th grade you must be a transfer.

Newsflash, these are prep schools a their are lots of kids from other areas.

 

[Rasslinking]

21 minutes ago, wssm said:

I guess if a kid doesn't grow up within walking distance of their school they must be some kind of recruit. 

As far as I can tell Baylors line up at the tournament looked like this.

Phillips - Baylor Middle School
Bond - started at Baylor as a freshman. Was in the club before. Brother wrestled all 4 years at Baylor. 
Cofer - Baylor middle - did not wrestle in middle school

Hart-?

Emendorfer - came to Baylor in 8th
Askew- came to Baylor as a freshman. The only wrestler who doesn't live within 30min of Baylor. 
Tisdale - Baylor in 8th 
Sturgill - the only transfer. Moved to Chattanooga.
Phillips - started wrestling in 9th grade at Baylor
Joyner - Baylor middle
Alvarez - Baylor in 9th
Crawford - Baylor in 8th 
Stein - Baylor middle- didn't wrestle in middle 
Rose - Baylor middle - didn't wrestle in middle School 

Looks like if you didn't start at a school by the 6th grade you must be a transfer.

Newsflash, these are prep schools a their are lots of kids from other areas.

 

Actually Bond wrestled club with Chatooga, a club his dad ran…. 

Maybe 1-2 kids on that list actually wrestled for Baylor club.

but

You are right, they all recruit, that’s the name of the game for them…..and they did it better than anyone. Now i think McCallie is finally tired of losing and are going to play the game. 

 

[wssm]

The whole goal of private schools in general is to recruit students. It would be a pretty sh#*ty business plan to just hope kids that lived near there randomly just showed up and handed them a bunch of money.

[cowcatcherII]

11 hours ago, wssm said:

The whole goal of private schools in general is to recruit students. It would be a pretty sh#*ty business plan to just hope kids that lived near there randomly just showed up and handed them a bunch of money.

Fair point. We can trash them all we want, and I know I have because I do not think it's necessarily fair the way the rules are designed, but as long as it's within the rules, it's hard to knock on Baylor or McCallie for "recruiting." And you definitely cannot fault anyone for wanting to send their kids to one of these schools if you have the opportunity to go for a discounted tuition fee. 

I have been very critical of Yost and McCallie with my previous posts, but I will say again, that I do hope they turn it around. Wrestling in TN and especially DII is better when McCallie is a contender and thought of as the EBE.

As to my point about the rules not necessarily being fair, I just don't see how it can be realistic for Father Ryan, CBHS and MBA to consistently challenge boarding schools like Baylor and McCallie year over year when they can offer substantial financial aid to kids from all over. To me, it seems like Baylor and McCallie could finish #1 and #2 interchangeably every year if they really wanted to considering the resources both have. Baylor has essentially committed to that already. To Ryan's credit, they have managed to compete somehow (I guess through the Nash. Cath. WC) and it seems like MBA is headed down the right path. Maybe someone who knows more than me can speak to the specifics regarding the TSSAA rules. Is there something in place that restricts the amount of financial aid/scholarship money that a team in D2 can employ? 

For instance, D2 feels the way college football used to feel before there was a rule that you could only have a max. number of scholarship players on your roster. D2 is essentially a two horse race every year between Baylor and Ryan with CBHS occasionally challenging. A rule comparable to college football's might help even the playing field for other teams to consistently compete, which I think would help make the division more fun and competitive. 2022 was a great example of what I am talking about... no one wants to see a Baylor dual meet in the state finals. I think they had like 11 finalists that year? 

[BobCorker]

50 minutes ago, cowcatcherII said:

Fair point. We can trash them all we want, and I know I have because I do not think it's necessarily fair the way the rules are designed, but as long as it's within the rules, it's hard to knock on Baylor or McCallie for "recruiting." And you definitely cannot fault anyone for wanting to send their kids to one of these schools if you have the opportunity to go for a discounted tuition fee. 

I have been very critical of Yost and McCallie with my previous posts, but I will say again, that I do hope they turn it around. Wrestling in TN and especially DII is better when McCallie is a contender and thought of as the EBE.

As to my point about the rules not necessarily being fair, I just don't see how it can be realistic for Father Ryan, CBHS and MBA to consistently challenge boarding schools like Baylor and McCallie year over year when they can offer substantial financial aid to kids from all over. To me, it seems like Baylor and McCallie could finish #1 and #2 interchangeably every year if they really wanted to considering the resources both have. Baylor has essentially committed to that already. To Ryan's credit, they have managed to compete somehow (I guess through the Nash. Cath. WC) and it seems like MBA is headed down the right path. Maybe someone who knows more than me can speak to the specifics regarding the TSSAA rules. Is there something in place that restricts the amount of financial aid/scholarship money that a team in D2 can employ? 

For instance, D2 feels the way college football used to feel before there was a rule that you could only have a max. number of scholarship players on your roster. D2 is essentially a two horse race every year between Baylor and Ryan with CBHS occasionally challenging. A rule comparable to college football's might help even the playing field for other teams to consistently compete, which I think would help make the division more fun and competitive. 2022 was a great example of what I am talking about... no one wants to see a Baylor dual meet in the state finals. I think they had like 11 finalists that year? 

 

Again, from the TSSAA handbook. (copied below) The TSSAA restricts the amount of aid.  Each family must turn in their tax information and send it to the TSSAA.  They determine how much aid each school gets.  It may surprise you, but most kids at McCallie and Baylor pay close to the full price.   It may be better to think of each school as a business that offers a product of education and sports.   If they gave every kid a major discount, then how would they pay their bills?  Who would pay their teachers?   TN private school are unique in this aspect as most private schools do not belong to their state organization. 

McCallie has around 1000 boys in their high school but roughly 300 in the middle school.  Baylor has about 150 boys in their middle school.  Both schools relay on about 600-800 kids to "move in" in order to meet their enrollment needs in high school.  They must offer a really good product or families are not going to pay.  Or even send their 15 year old off to live on a high school campus.  Have any of you had 14/15 year olds?  How many had kids ready to go live by themselves in a dorm at age 14? 

Every school has advantages and disadvantages.   Father Ryan has a club that cost very little that draws kids from a metro area of 2 million people.  They have had a stranglehold on the youth talent of that city for 40 years. That seems like a pretty good pipeline of talent.  Then that talent can go to Father Ryan for a fraction of the cost of McCallie.  McCallie has to charge $33,000 to their middle school wrestlers before they start to develop them.  That is a pretty step price tag for middle school.   Would Father Ryan be as successful if their school was located in Lewisburg, TN and not downtown Nashville? 

TSSAA Handbook: Section 16

Financial aid may be awarded on the basis of need, but proof of such need must be filed in the TSSAA office on forms approved by the Executive Director. In order to determine the basis for need, all schools awarding financial aid shall use one of the following services: FACTS Grant and Aid Assessment (FACTS), Financial Aid for School Tuition (FAST), School and Student Scholastic Service for Financial Aid (SSS), Family Financial Needs Assessment (FFNA), Private School Aid Services, Blackbaud Tuition Management, or Tuition Aid Data Services (TADS). Schools must choose one of the companies for all student-athletes. A committee consisting of School Heads from Division II schools and one ex-officio, non-voting member from the Board of Control and Legislative Council will meet and make recommendations to the Board of Control on each student submitted. In addition, this committee will collect information from schools regarding financial aid statistics, grant procedures, and the overall financial aid program within the school. The Board of Control will then rule on all cases at the August meeting. The Board of Control shall have authority to reject the basis of need for students when in its opinion, or in the opinion of the school committee, the amount of need stated by the financial service cannot be justified.