Ben Smith

[BobCorker]

2 hours ago, cowcatcherII said:

This is staggering. We might as well rename the divisions rich and poor LOL. I can't believe there are that many families that can afford these schools. 

So Bob and others that understand how the financial aid thing works in the rich division, do you think McCallie's problem has been that their administration just hasn't been on board with giving recruits the full amount of financial aid that they qualify for in comparison to Baylor and Father Ryan for instance?

By and large, what percentage of the roster of these good rich division schools do we think receives some sort of aid? Just curious. I have no clue.

I find it hard to believe that McCallie just stopped supporting wrestling.  My guess would be that is a combination of multiple factors.  They were probably getting a high volume of football players who applied due to the success of their program, so that probably did eat up a lot of aid.  (It will be interesting to see if Baylor’s recent success in football has an impact on their other programs.)

However, based on their respective websites it looks like McCallie and MBA offer 15 varsity sports and Baylor offers 27.  With Baylor having to provide aid to all the girl’s programs as well, it seems that McCallie would be able to provide aid for each of their 15 programs.  Unless they just got tired of Yost?  Why wouldn't they just fire him instead of sabotaging their program? Seems strange...

If you look at the success of Baylor, MBA, and McCallie over the last 30 years across all sports you will see a cyclical pattern of success.  Individual programs are often driven by one or two successful athletes whose families can help build around. Like anything, once a program starts to have success it sells itself. The fact that Baylor wrestling has had more success on the state and national level for the last 20 years has probably led to more people applying.

Father Ryan has probably been the most consistent program in the state for the last 50 years. That is likely due to their coaching consistency, strong club presence in a huge city, and their relatively cheap tuition.  

Cleveland has done such a good job of developing their youth program that you now have kids from all over the state moving there at a young age.  Bosken is probably single handedly responsible for the median home value increasing in their school district. The county commissioner should slip him a check every now and then. In every case it is an example of “build it and they will come”.  I say, good for them.

As for what percentage of each roster receives aid, I have zero clue.  I have met families at all the private schools over the last 30 years and there are many of them who have been incredibly successful in their professional lives. Many of these wrestlers have parents who are dentists, doctors, attorneys, sell/develop commercial real estate, businessmen, tech entrepreneurs.  Aid is awarded on a sliding scale, based on need, so the range that people pay can be from a couple thousand – the sticker price.  My guess is that each school has a roster that is made up of kids from a multitude of socioeconomic backgrounds.  None of these schools specialize in just one sport, so I imagine that aid is fairly evenly distributed among sports.  These schools need tuition to pay their bills; they receive zero government tax money.  They simply cannot afford to give every single kid who applies their full aid. 

[cobrakid8]

17 hours ago, BobCorker said:

I find it hard to believe that McCallie just stopped supporting wrestling.  My guess would be that is a combination of multiple factors.  They were probably getting a high volume of football players who applied due to the success of their program, so that probably did eat up a lot of aid.  (It will be interesting to see if Baylor’s recent success in football has an impact on their other programs.)

However, based on their respective websites it looks like McCallie and MBA offer 15 varsity sports and Baylor offers 27.  With Baylor having to provide aid to all the girl’s programs as well, it seems that McCallie would be able to provide aid for each of their 15 programs.  Unless they just got tired of Yost?  Why wouldn't they just fire him instead of sabotaging their program? Seems strange...

If you look at the success of Baylor, MBA, and McCallie over the last 30 years across all sports you will see a cyclical pattern of success.  Individual programs are often driven by one or two successful athletes whose families can help build around. Like anything, once a program starts to have success it sells itself. The fact that Baylor wrestling has had more success on the state and national level for the last 20 years has probably led to more people applying.

Father Ryan has probably been the most consistent program in the state for the last 50 years. That is likely due to their coaching consistency, strong club presence in a huge city, and their relatively cheap tuition.  

Cleveland has done such a good job of developing their youth program that you now have kids from all over the state moving there at a young age.  Bosken is probably single handedly responsible for the median home value increasing in their school district. The county commissioner should slip him a check every now and then. In every case it is an example of “build it and they will come”.  I say, good for them.

As for what percentage of each roster receives aid, I have zero clue.  I have met families at all the private schools over the last 30 years and there are many of them who have been incredibly successful in their professional lives. Many of these wrestlers have parents who are dentists, doctors, attorneys, sell/develop commercial real estate, businessmen, tech entrepreneurs.  Aid is awarded on a sliding scale, based on need, so the range that people pay can be from a couple thousand – the sticker price.  My guess is that each school has a roster that is made up of kids from a multitude of socioeconomic backgrounds.  None of these schools specialize in just one sport, so I imagine that aid is fairly evenly distributed among sports.  These schools need tuition to pay their bills; they receive zero government tax money.  They simply cannot afford to give every single kid who applies their full aid. 

McCallie started going after kids that had no business being at that school but were there due to football. Kids that had issues with their grades and had big time issues trying to keep up and also issues with staying out of trouble. It's why my boss decided to remove his kid from McCallie and over to Baylor even though he sat on the football quarterback club at McCallie. Most of those kids had to have close to full tuition assistance to play football and that is where wrestling was getting squeezed out. I think they have new administration there now and I think things are going back some to what was happening before when they refused to bring in kids just because they could play football, but the school did put a focus on that football program there. 

 

As far as Father Ryan, maybe it's just me but they have had a lot of the same families come through there throughout many many years. The Dunnings, of course Simpsons, Eason, Schultz, Bateman, Marchetti. Seems there's been 50 each of those families and they are always really good wrestlers. I think Simpson is one of the best coaches in the state and the SE. So with that and their families staying with the school through thick and thin they ALWAYS have a tough program to face.

[RMC]

I'll put my 2 cents in here......having been part of a fairly successful program and also having a nephew state champion at Baylor.  From what I remember, the nephew's financial aid was reduced over time and by the time he was senior there was none.

For a successful program, either build a strong middle school program, recruit one, or make one kids want to be a part of it.

It was tough to do here, in Georgia, because there aren't many middle school teams and none I know of in the metro Atlanta area.  We had to do through USA Wrestling.  The second step I was tasked with was to get them used to traveling and staying in hotels.  I will always appreciate Greg Foreman allowing me to put a team together to bring to a tournament in Pigeon Forge. I'll also never forget getting snowed in and being the only guests in the Econo Lodge......and that call letting me know that the entire team was naked in the in-door pool....ah the good old days. 

Kids had a great time and I think some of the Tennessee kids enjoyed seeing how they stacked up against some Tulsa National placers.

Guess my point is......with a good feeder the high school part will fall into place. Once we got rolling kids wanted to come for the opportunity to travel to big out of state tournaments like: Cleveland Duals (Tn), Kansas City Stampede (Mo), Tiger Classic - Chapel Hill  (NC), The Clash (Mn), Powerade Invitational (Pa), Powerade Final 4 (Pa)  The school had a no permissive transfer rule and if you wanted to come you had to move into the school district.....in one kid's case only 2 miles. 

[matpitts81]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:52 AM, Rasslinking said:

MBA, FR and CB do a great job developing their own talent. That’s obvious bc they all have feeder programs represented in the youth state tournament. Bottom line is Baylor and McCallie would rather recruit kids to build a team, which is fine. But they aren’t better coaches than any of the other 3 programs. Past credentials are 100% irrelevant when it comes to ability to coach. 

2023 TVWC Middle School Conference Championships held last night at Cleveland  

1. McCallie 212

(Done with all wrestlers that started Mccallie in the 6th grade, missing one weight, and 8 total 1st-2nd year wrestlers) 

2. Cleveland 211

3. Boyd 113

4. Lake Forest 106

5. CCS 90

6. Baylor 63.5 

Edited December 16, 2023 by matpitts81

[cbg]

1 hour ago, matpitts81 said:

2023 TVWC Middle School Conference Championships held last night at Cleveland  

1. McCallie 212

(Done with all wrestlers that started Mccallie in the 6th grade, missing one weight, and 8 total 1st-2nd year wrestlers) 

2. Cleveland 211

3. Boyd 113

4. Lake Forest 106

5. CCS 90

6. Baylor 63.5 

I didn’t realize that Baylor still had a middle school team.  For the past several years the middle school team was atrocious and that is being kind.  They merely go out and recruit kids of need to fill the various weight classifications.  

[soms2]

On 3/26/2023 at 10:15 PM, BobCorker said:

As a senator of this great state for 12 years and someone who sent their kids to a private school in Tennessee, I believe I can add to this discussion.

 

Mr. Durdon,

You can’t honestly expect us all to believe that McCallie just randomly decided to de-emphasize wrestling after your son’s freshmen year.   In that time span McCallie won 4 cross-country state championships.  Did they decide to value cross-country over wrestling?  If you click on the McCallie website, you will find a note stating that McCallie has won 54 team and individual state titles in the last four years.  54!!! It would sure seem to be a very balanced athletic dept in the shadow of a great football team.

You must realize that McCallie has not won a traditional state championship in wrestling since 1993.  This is not a 4-year problem.  No kid on the team was alive the last time McCallie won state.  McCallie has probably invested more into their program in the last decade than any other program in the state.  At most tournaments they have more coaches than they do placers.  They have 3 head coaches on staff in Yost, Newman, and Connell.  They have at least 5 other assistants who wrestled in college. They have a full-time club coach.  Despite all the resources that McCallie has poured into the program, they routinely get out coached by CCS and Boyd.  We get that the program helped your son achieve his academic and athletic goals, so you are forever a McCallie sycophant.  We all know the well ran dry when Chittum pulled out and went to Blair.  The truth is that this new wave is being directed by a parent who wants to restore the glory years of 1993. Why the false narrative?

 

In regard to DII schools giving scholarships: Directly form the TSSAA Handbook: Section 16

Financial aid may be awarded on the basis of need, but proof of such need must be filed in the TSSAA office on forms approved by the Executive Director. In order to determine the basis for need, all schools awarding financial aid shall use one of the following services: FACTS Grant and Aid Assessment (FACTS), Financial Aid for School Tuition (FAST), School and Student Scholastic Service for Financial Aid (SSS), Family Financial Needs Assessment (FFNA), Private School Aid Services, Blackbaud Tuition Management, or Tuition Aid Data Services (TADS). Schools must choose one of the companies for all student-athletes. A committee consisting of School Heads from Division II schools and one ex-officio, non-voting member from the Board of Control and Legislative Council will meet and make recommendations to the Board of Control on each student submitted. In addition, this committee will collect information from schools regarding financial aid statistics, grant procedures, and the overall financial aid program within the school. The Board of Control will then rule on all cases at the August meeting. The Board of Control shall have authority to reject the basis of need for students when in its opinion, or in the opinion of the school committee, the amount of need stated by the financial service cannot be justified.

 

To summarize: There is no such thing as a scholarship to a private school in TN.  They are not allowed to give MERIT aid.  If you know of someone who has received a scholarship, please turn that school into the TSSAA.  That school will get the death plenty. If they were allowed to give scholarships, then TN private schools would be able to compete with the teams in the Northeast who do give scholarships. The TSSAA handicaps the private schools in our great state.  Why doesn’t McCallie just offer a full ride to every kid in the SE and win it every year if they had the ability?

 

If one has worked hard in business, law, or medicine and made good money, then you are going to have to pay to attend private schools.  Baylor’s run most recent run, and historically, includes many prosperous families who have footed the bill.  That is certainly true of McCallie, Father Ryan, Christian Brothers, and MBA as well.  People like Alex Whitworth’s family have done very well through hard work and education.  Why do people have a problem with them paying for private school? Seems very socialist!  There are two types of kids who have the easiest time getting into McCallie: wealthy folks and poor folks.  The middle class is squeezed out, again. Coach Morgan had a dry spell from 1981 to 1999 without a state championship… why didn’t he just start handing out scholarships?  Sometimes this misconception is exacerbated by folks in TN who claim their child got a full ride scholarship.  In reality they are just poor if they got full need-based aid; they probably don’t understand the difference.

Mister, Senator, Corker,
 

Very well informed and researched information here I see. I missed this a few months back. You make very good points!

My email is adsomm@gmail.com

With your common sense that you applied so well, regarding Wrestling and private schools, I would be most interested in hearing from you firsthand on your involvement with Iran and funding those guys. I believe it was the group of five if I’m remembering correctly.

 Yours,

 Soms

[cobrakid8]

 

What all schools are allowed to wrestle in this?

15 hours ago, matpitts81 said:

2023 TVWC Middle School Conference Championships held last night at Cleveland  

1. McCallie 212

(Done with all wrestlers that started Mccallie in the 6th grade, missing one weight, and 8 total 1st-2nd year wrestlers) 

2. Cleveland 211

3. Boyd 113

4. Lake Forest 106

5. CCS 90

6. Baylor

Edited December 17, 2023 by cobrakid8

[FR615]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:12 AM, matpitts81 said:

2023 TVWC Middle School Conference Championships held last night at Cleveland  

1. McCallie 212

(Done with all wrestlers that started Mccallie in the 6th grade, missing one weight, and 8 total 1st-2nd year wrestlers) 

2. Cleveland 211

3. Boyd 113

4. Lake Forest 106

5. CCS 90

6. Baylor 63.5 

Are you working directly for Mccallie now? Edit just found out you are coaching the middle team. No wonder so many from Chattanooga/Cleveland minions are headed there lol

Edited December 18, 2023 by FR615

[soms2]

On 3/27/2023 at 11:31 AM, cobrakid8 said:

I absolutely love Yost and have since we went to school together, but he should have stayed with Cleveland as moving over to McCallie was a really bad decision when it comes down to winning actual state titles and your kids doing so also. As far as costs durdon,  it shows McCallie is 64k for domestic boarding students and 33 for day students, Baylor is 58 for domestic boarding and 29 for day. So when talking about that large amount of money they really are very close and really I see no reason in paying the extra bit to go to McCallie vs Baylor, both very highly thought of schools, their academic rankings are very close and heck at least Baylor has ladies going there and not having to take classes with GPS girls just to see a female. VP of my company talked to me a few years ago, his dad went to McCallie, he went to McCallie and his oldest went to McCallie, the youngest he pulled out and sent to Baylor because he hated what McCallie was becoming(his son was a D1 athlete and went to college on a full ride). Said he would never send another kid to McCallie or even think of helping a grandkid go either. This coming from a guy that didnt get a cent of financial aid to either school but was a long line of McCallie men. Said many kids that should have gotten financial aid and qualified but didnt get any because it wasnt what the school thought they should put their money towards. Pretty sad for a school with 136 million in endowment. But hey, at least they sold their soul for some football lol.

Walkinvol??

[cobrakid8]

10 hours ago, soms2 said:

Walkinvol??

Nope lol. Not a vol fan at all

[GrassmanCLEV]

On 12/16/2023 at 8:12 AM, matpitts81 said:

2023 TVWC Middle School Conference Championships held last night at Cleveland  

1. McCallie 212

(Done with all wrestlers that started Mccallie in the 6th grade, missing one weight, and 8 total 1st-2nd year wrestlers) 

2. Cleveland 211

3. Boyd 113

4. Lake Forest 106

5. CCS 90

6. Baylor 63.5 

It should be noted that Cleveland lost 3 varsity wrestlers due to illness, and at least 2 would have won their brackets with the 3rd finishing top 3. I don't know if other teams had similar luck, but that was obviously a factor for Cleveland's finish. That said, congratulations to McCallie for getting it done.

Edited December 26, 2023 by GrassmanCLEV

[littlejohnny]

12 hours ago, GrassmanCLEV said:

It should be noted that Cleveland lost 3 varsity wrestlers due to illness, and at least 2 would have won their brackets with the 3rd finishing top 3. I don't know if other teams had similar luck, but that was obviously a factor for Cleveland's finish. That said, congratulations to McCallie for getting it done.

And FSU would be national champions if Jordan Travis didn’t get hurt, right? 
 

Coulda, woulda, shoulda!  I’m surprised such an elite program like the all mighty Cleveland didn’t have backups capable of winning lol

All sarcasm aside I know for sure that @matpitts81 wouldn’t have posted excuses for why they didn’t win had the tables been turned. People like him and McCallie are above  stuff like that. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by littlejohnny