All State

[TotallynotLEO]

3 hours ago, Bump11 said:

who said anyone’s accomplishments were a joke?

 

10 hours ago, cobrakid8 said:

 It's why its a joke to even give a team title for an individual tournament

 

[cobrakid8]

9 hours ago, TotallynotLEO said:

 

 

thats because it is STUPID to give a team title out in an individual tournament, sorry if that is taking away an accomplishment, but that accomplishment is stupid. There are so many things that can cost a team an individual tournament title, smaller sectionals making it easier for a team to qualify an entire team compared to tougher sectionals that make it where only 10-11 qualify. We saw that this year when Soddy who should have beat Halls in state duals only qualified like 9 wrestlers compared to Halls who qualified more. Soddy had to contend with Signal, Pigeon Forge and a few other good teams compared to Halls weaker region, sorry its the truth rather you like that or not. Because of that they have a better chance of scoring points with more state qualifiers. SO YES IT IS STUPID TO GIVE OUT A TEAM TITLE FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TOURNAMENT. So sorry if that hurts your feelings but it's not hard to understand why it's a stupid idea no matter if you like that or not. For A state this year Halls had 13, Signal had 9, Pigeon Forge also with 9, Greeneville and Soddy with 8 each. Tell me how that is fair to crown a team champion with that? So yeah that team title is a JOKE! Not Signal, Soddy or Pigeon Forge fault they are in a much tougher region. Shouldnt blame Greeneville on only having 8 wrestlers and no chance of winning the team title even though they had 4 state champs and Halls only 1. Team titles are deserved for those that wrestle head to head top to bottom and see who wins out. This year Halls did that in the state duals beating very tough Soddy and Signal teams as well as Page. That was earned! 

 

[TotallynotLEO]

By your logic,  the toughest wrestlers were in that region. Those people were still at state,  were they not?  If the Halls kids were in a soft region, shouldn't they get smoked by the toughest collection of wrestlers from the toughest region?  But they didn't.  If a kid is a scrub but qualified for state due to being in a soft region he will get smoked at state.  Seen it too many times.  

[rideOut]

2 hours ago, TotallynotLEO said:

By your logic,  the toughest wrestlers were in that region. Those people were still at state,  were they not?  If the Halls kids were in a soft region, shouldn't they get smoked by the toughest collection of wrestlers from the toughest region?  But they didn't.  If a kid is a scrub but qualified for state due to being in a soft region he will get smoked at state.  Seen it too many times.  

Your logic isn't sound, you aren't considering multiple variables which is there is varying levels of competition and the 13 Halls kids didn't only wrestle against the Pigeon Forge, Greeneville, and Soddy kids at state, they wrestle against kids that qualify from various other teams. So they did have an advantage by qualifying more wrestlers even if those "soft" wrestlers only won one or two matches. Those points add up to a usually very tight A-AA individual state tournament team score race. Sometimes they do get "smoked" as you say but the 12 out of the 16 wrestlers per bracket win at least one match, so chances are they will earn extra points that can make a difference when its all said and done.

[TotallynotLEO]

Being from a soft region doesn't make a wrestler magically better.  Maybe that region isn't soft,  maybe that team is just that good top to bottom.  If they win,  they were better.  It's that simple. 

Having a larger number of wrestlers qualify, IMO,  means you've got a solid team top to bottom. 

In 2018 Gibbs won state duals. They qualified 13 of 14 for ind state. 

Hixon qualified all 14. 

Gibbs ran away with the traditional title too.  What does that tell you?  It tells me that Gibbs had a better team,  top to bottom.  It's the same thing with Halls this year. 

We do a team title at every ind tournament throughout the season.  Why wouldn't you do it here? 

Edited May 4, 2023 by TotallynotLEO

[Mason422]

12 hours ago, cobrakid8 said:

thats because it is STUPID to give a team title out in an individual tournament, sorry if that is taking away an accomplishment, but that accomplishment is stupid. There are so many things that can cost a team an individual tournament title, smaller sectionals making it easier for a team to qualify an entire team compared to tougher sectionals that make it where only 10-11 qualify. We saw that this year when Soddy who should have beat Halls in state duals only qualified like 9 wrestlers compared to Halls who qualified more. Soddy had to contend with Signal, Pigeon Forge and a few other good teams compared to Halls weaker region, sorry its the truth rather you like that or not. Because of that they have a better chance of scoring points with more state qualifiers. SO YES IT IS STUPID TO GIVE OUT A TEAM TITLE FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TOURNAMENT. So sorry if that hurts your feelings but it's not hard to understand why it's a stupid idea no matter if you like that or not. For A state this year Halls had 13, Signal had 9, Pigeon Forge also with 9, Greeneville and Soddy with 8 each. Tell me how that is fair to crown a team champion with that? So yeah that team title is a JOKE! Not Signal, Soddy or Pigeon Forge fault they are in a much tougher region. Shouldnt blame Greeneville on only having 8 wrestlers and no chance of winning the team title even though they had 4 state champs and Halls only 1. Team titles are deserved for those that wrestle head to head top to bottom and see who wins out. This year Halls did that in the state duals beating very tough Soddy and Signal teams as well as Page. That was earned! 

 

Greeneville qualified 9 the year before and won a traditional state title.
 

You stated it wasn’t fair this year because we only qualified 8. It’s 100% fair because we had the same opportunity to qualify 14 as Halls did.  This year just didn’t go our way, no excuses. We had kids get hurt, sick, etc….  We as coaches could have done a better job keeping them healthy and focused and won another title.  
 

A traditional title may not mean anything to you, but I can promise you that the Greeneville coaching staff and the team are very proud of that title. 

[Nainten]

Replying to some of the original posts on the thread.  Agree it doesn't water down anything.  It's just another way to recognize the kids who excelled.  All-American, All-state, All-conference, All-region, All-Metro...etc.  All good.  In theory it's just more recognition for a job well done.  And for those laughing at the DI reference.  It's arguably true.  Another way to state the same argument is that the gap between the "average" D1 wrestler and the elite top-8 wrestler is way, way smaller than the gap between the average TN wrestler in any division and the top 4 in those divisions.  I am inclined to agree.  

Edited May 6, 2023 by Nainten

[cobrakid8]

On 5/4/2023 at 9:57 PM, Mason422 said:

Greeneville qualified 9 the year before and won a traditional state title.
 

You stated it wasn’t fair this year because we only qualified 8. It’s 100% fair because we had the same opportunity to qualify 14 as Halls did.  This year just didn’t go our way, no excuses. We had kids get hurt, sick, etc….  We as coaches could have done a better job keeping them healthy and focused and won another title.  
 

A traditional title may not mean anything to you, but I can promise you that the Greeneville coaching staff and the team are very proud of that title. 

glad it means that to you, most coaches it does not, heck its why NCAA coaches are trying to move more towards team titles being duals also instead of being named national team champions at the NCAA's, but I guess they don't know anything.  Also yes, I understand Greeneville won a traditional title with only 9, thats because they had studs that won individual titles, but as a team they didnt win a team title did they because ACTUAL TEAM STRENGTH IS HAVING 14 KIDS THAT CAN ACTUALLY WRESTLE OR EVEN HAVING 14 KIDS. Thats the whole reason we have duals is to test strength, thats why it actual means something and no I could care less to win a "team" title at an individual tournament throughout the year also. Never cared when I was coaching just like I do not now. 

[cobrakid8]

On 5/4/2023 at 3:59 PM, TotallynotLEO said:

Being from a soft region doesn't make a wrestler magically better.  Maybe that region isn't soft,  maybe that team is just that good top to bottom.  If they win,  they were better.  It's that simple. 

Having a larger number of wrestlers qualify, IMO,  means you've got a solid team top to bottom. 

In 2018 Gibbs won state duals. They qualified 13 of 14 for ind state. 

Hixon qualified all 14. 

Gibbs ran away with the traditional title too.  What does that tell you?  It tells me that Gibbs had a better team,  top to bottom.  It's the same thing with Halls this year. 

We do a team title at every ind tournament throughout the season.  Why wouldn't you do it here? 

Are you really playing dumb or are you to aloof to understand that getting more bites at the apple gives more chances to win? There are ducks in every weight class at the state tournament EVEN with only 16 there because some regions just dont have many good wrestlers. So just an example, Halls qualifies 13 kids and even their not strongest kids wrestle against the 1 or 2 coming out of regions out west where there just isnt many strong teams or wrestlers they have a good shot of winning that where 1 or 2 matches can make a big difference in a team score for an individual tournament. Just like the fact they also DO NOT SEED, so we have kids that should have wrestled in the finals for all the marbles but instead had to wrestle in the semi's and therefore didnt score the amount of points they could have for their team. I kind of feel sad that you went to Soddy and yet aren't smart enough to know that having more kids qualified gives you a much easier shot to win something like individuals because it gives you more bullets in the gun to do so. It's such a simple concept because even those soft kids as you put it can win matches because there are such things as injuries, missing weight and such that can and do happen and you actually have to have wrestlers there to take advantage of that. So unless your team has 5-6 champs like Greeneville did and the rest of the team just isnt all that good so those champs carry you having more qualifiers makes it much much easier to win a team title at an individual tournament. 

 

As far as ever giving a team title at a individual tournament, never been in favor of it, never cared for it and I would be willing to bet you can ask some coaches like Henry that they didnt much care for them either. I really dont ever remember celebrating those when i was there and we won a whole lot of tournaments during my 4 years at Soddy although a state duals was not ever one of them.

Edited May 8, 2023 by cobrakid8

[cobrakid8]

On 5/4/2023 at 3:59 PM, TotallynotLEO said:

Being from a soft region doesn't make a wrestler magically better.  Maybe that region isn't soft,  maybe that team is just that good top to bottom.  If they win,  they were better.  It's that simple. 

Having a larger number of wrestlers qualify, IMO,  means you've got a solid team top to bottom. 

In 2018 Gibbs won state duals. They qualified 13 of 14 for ind state. 

Hixon qualified all 14. 

Gibbs ran away with the traditional title too.  What does that tell you?  It tells me that Gibbs had a better team,  top to bottom.  It's the same thing with Halls this year. 

We do a team title at every ind tournament throughout the season.  Why wouldn't you do it here? 

Yes Gibbs was by far the best team that year in 2018, do you know without looking up who finished as runner-up in individual state as a team? That would be Forrest who didn't even make state duals but had 7 state placers and finished 2nd over 2 other teams that did make state duals with Hixson(3rd) and Signal(4th). They had some really good wrestlers and the rest were not very good at all(only 1 other qualifier). Just like with Greeneville, individual team titles can be won with some hammers or with some really good wrestlers but the rest of the team can be average or worse. That doesnt show the strength of the team which is what TEAM titles are for. Same reason when the state team rankings are put out and I see people complain about team A beat team B at McCallie tournament but team B is still ranked ahead of team A, while they look past the fact team B head to head beat team A. Nevermind the fact team B in that individual tournament got screwed on their seeds and 2 wrestlers that should have met in the finals actually ended up meeting in the quarters, so the 1 team got the big points from getting to the semis while the other fought back to win 3rd but scored less points with it so they lost the "team" title because of it. That happens with the state tournament quite a bit because if you aren't as Sid Mason found out not seeded unless you are a previous state placer AND you won your sectional. So the 2 best wrestlers sadly sometimes do not end up in the finals together. Happens almost every single year and is another thing that shows there is a lot that goes into winning a supposed "team" title at an individual tournament, just to many things that can effect that, that the wrestlers themselves have no control over. 

 

As far as Sectional strength, there were a total of 27 placers from the sectional with Signal/Soddy and Pigeon Forge-10 total teams had a state placer.  There were a total of 21 from Greeneville and Halls sectional-7 total teams with a placer. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by cobrakid8

[cobrakid8]

On 5/4/2023 at 9:57 PM, Mason422 said:

Greeneville qualified 9 the year before and won a traditional state title.
 

You stated it wasn’t fair this year because we only qualified 8. It’s 100% fair because we had the same opportunity to qualify 14 as Halls did.  This year just didn’t go our way, no excuses. We had kids get hurt, sick, etc….  We as coaches could have done a better job keeping them healthy and focused and won another title.  
 

A traditional title may not mean anything to you, but I can promise you that the Greeneville coaching staff and the team are very proud of that title. 

Yay you had a team of a few hammers that ended up winning a bunch of state titles that carried the team for a "team" title. We saw what happens when you actually wrestle head to head with an actual team and that was you won the traditional title big time but got beat very handily for the real team title at state duals. Sorry if that offends you, but a team is head to head plain and simple and your team was not good enough to get that job done(although very admirable to finish runner-up to Signal, yet won BIG time the team title in an individual tournament. 

 

As far as you having the opportunity to qualify 14(or in Halls case 13) and having that same opportunity, sorry but Soddy/Pigeon Forge and Signal did not face that same opportunity because 3 of the best teams in the state had to wrestle each other to try and qualify 14, not counting throwing all the other teams that were fighting for qualifiers. Sorry but as I have put in another response on this thread, Sectional 2 was much tougher top to bottom than Sectional 1.  27 state placers to 21, 10 different teams with a placer compared to 7 with a placer. Now if you don't think that gives an advantage for a team with 13 that can qualify vs one with 9 I don't know what to tell you. Thats like giving me 13 balls to throw strikes with vs 9 and saying I dont have a better chance of throwing more strikes with the 13. Sometimes you guys give me a headache. 

 

Oh and just an FYI, Fairview finished ahead of Soddy at state traditional as a team, Soddy beat Fairview not once but twice head to head at state duals and also Soddy beat PF who finished ahead of Soddy at both sectional individual and state, both Soddy beat close but still they beat head to head. Soddy wasnt as good as an individual team but it was a better team.

 

 

[TotallynotLEO]

I bet you're fun at parties. 

Honestly,  you sound bitter, petty  and toxic.  Like one of those guys that gets wound up and argues for the sake of arguing. Calling out Sid Mason, calling kids accomplishments a joke.  Telling kids their medals are worthless.  Take a step back man,  it's high school wrestling.  

1. Halls sectional 1

2. Signal mountain sectional 2

3. PF sectional 2

4. Greeneville sectional 1

5. Fairview sectional 4

6. SD sectional 2

7. Gibbs sectional 1

8. Green Hill sectional 3

9. Sycamore sectional 4

10. Page sectional 3

Looks like a pretty even split to me for sectionals 1 and 2. Each had 3 in the top 10. Halls wrestlers had to get through Greeneville and Gibbs. SM had to get through SD and PF. Based on results,  it doesn't look like Halls was in such a weak sectional.  They beat SD and SM heads up in Duals,  so why is this such an issue?  With PF moving to region 2 next year,  Page, Green Hill and Halls changing to AA next year's titles are Soddy's to lose.  Clear favorites, anything less than a clean sweep of regions, sectionals,  state duals, and tournament title are an underperformance. But, since those don't matter to you,  we don't expect to see you on here next year happy about any of those since they're all (in your words)  worthless and a joke.