footballref

On 10/2/2017 at 1:09 PM, Safesquezze said:

Is a dead ball personal foul an automatic first down?

No, it’s not. Only roughing fouls are automatic first downs. 

On 9/17/2017 at 11:42 PM, tightend said:

high school football when a ball is punted and the ball is rolling on ground and touches a receiving player and recovered by the punting team is it a recovered fumble Illinois high school game.

Not sure what you’re asking. 

Doesn't the muffed punt need to be recovered past the line to gain for K to retain the possession?

 

Here's some scenarios from the case book. This is from the 2013 case book, PDF copies are hard to get.

 

TOUCHING

AND

RECOVERING

SCRIMMAGE

KICKS

6.2.3 SITUATION A:

A scrimmage kick by K1 is partially blocked in the neutral zone by R1. The kick goes beyond the

neutral zone where R2 muffs it back behind the neutral zone. K2 recovers behind the neutral zone

and advances across R's goal line.

RULING: Touchdown for K.

COMMENT: The right of the kickers to advance their recovered scrimmage kick depends entirely

upon whether the kick is recovered in, behind or beyond the neutral zone. Whether the kick went

beyond the neutral zone and then rebounded behind it is of no consequence. The spot of recovery is

the only factor. If the recovery is in or behind the neutral zone, K may advance. If the recovery is

beyond the neutral zone, K may recover, but may not advance.

6.2.3 SITUATION B:

With third and 10 on K's 10-yard line, K1's punt is blocked and recovered on K's 4-yard line:

(a) simultaneously by K2 and R1, or

( by K2 who advances to K's 15.

RULING: In (a), the ball is dead immediately and is awarded to R because of the joint recovery. In

(, since K may recover in or behind the neutral zone and advance, it is fourth and 5 for K from its

own 15-yard line. The series for K did not end because the kick was blocked. (4-2-2e)

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6.2.4 SITUATION:

It is fourth and 10 and K11 punts the ball from K's 40-yard line. While R1 and K1 are engaged in

blocking downfield at R's 30-yard line, K2 legally bats the ball at R's 28-yard line and the batted ball

touches R1 on the leg. Then, K3 recovers the ball at the 30-yard line.

RULING: This touching by R is ignored and R will have the choice of taking the ball at the spot of

first touching or the dead-ball spot.

6.2.5 SITUATION A:

K1 attempts to down a punt beyond the neutral zone, but his touching only slows it down. The

bouncing ball is subsequently recovered by R1, who advances 25 yards but then fumbles and K2

recovers. K2 is immediately tackled.

RULING: R may either take the results of the play or retain possession by taking the ball at the spot

of K1's first touching. R can exercise this option, unless after R1 touches the ball, R commits a foul

or the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

*6.2.5 SITUATION C:

With fourth and 5 from K's 30-yard line, K9 punts the ball downfield where it is grounded and

touched by K88 (first touching) at R's 30. The ball continues rolling and is picked up by R35 at R's

25-yard line. R35 is subsequently hit and fumbles at R's 28. The loose ball is recovered by K88 on

the ground at R's 26. During the kick, R55 is flagged for holding.

RULING: If K accepts R's foul for holding, then it is enforced from the previous spot since postscrimmage

kick cannot apply as K is next to put the ball in play as a result of the play. If K accepts

the foul, the awarded spot for illegal touching is not applied. If K declines R's foul, R will take the

ball at the spot of first touching. (2-12-1; 2; 2-16-2h)

6.2.5 SITUATION B:

K2, running toward R's end zone, leaps in the air to catch K1's punt which is in flight. K2 has the ball

in his grasp over the 1-yard line, but first touches the ground in R's end zone. No player of R is in

position to catch the punt.

RULING: R can take the ball at the spot of first touching, his own 1-yard line, or take a touchback

since K2 has not possessed the ball until he came to the ground in the end zone. (6-3-1)

6.2.6 SITUATION:

What is the reason for having an expanded neutral zone during scrimmage kicks and how does it

affect the touching of a low kick in that area?

RULING: The purpose of expanding the neutral zone during a scrimmage kick is to permit normal

line play. The neutral zone is expanded up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of

scrimmage (beyond the neutral zone) to allow offensive linemen to block and drive defensive

linemen off the line of scrimmage. Low scrimmage kicks may touch or be touched by players of K or

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R, and such touching is ignored if the kick has not been beyond the expanded neutral zone. The zone

disintegrates immediately when the kick has crossed the expanded zone or when the trajectory is such

that it cannot be touched until it comes down. Once the zone disintegrates, touching of the kick by K

in flight beyond the neutral zone is kick-catching interference if an R player is in position to catch the

ball. If touched by R beyond the neutral zone, it establishes a new series. (2-28-2; 5-1-3f; 6-5-6)

4th & 10 at the 50, punter is 15 yards back at the 35 yard line. Punt is high, goes no where, hits a return player at the offensive 47 yard line and recovered by the offense, it is still the returns team ball. 1st & 10 at the offense 47 yard line.

 

Same situation and the ball hits a defensive player at the defensive 45 yard line, it will be the offensive ball 1st & 10 at the defensive 45 yard line. Am I right?

Yes, scenario 1 is the receiving team gets the ball. Scenario 2 the kicking team gets it.

 

It's all about where the touching occurs. The neutral zone is the magical place. The neutral zone is basically the line of scrimmage.

 

“ART. 1 . . . The neutral zone is the space between the two free-kick lines ­during a free-kick down and between the two scrimmage lines during a scrimmage down. For a free-kick down, the neutral zone is 10 yards wide and for a ­scrimmage down it is as wide as the length of the football. It is established when the ball is marked ready for play.

 

ART. 2 . . . The neutral zone may be expanded following the snap up to a ­maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage, in the field of play, during any scrimmage down.â€

 

Excerpt From: NFHS & Bob Colgate. “2014 NFHS Football Rules Book.†NFHS. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/mhUz0.l

Doesn't the muffed punt need to be recovered past the line to gain for K to retain the possession?

Not if it's touched beyond the neutral zone.

 

Let me see if I can find some scenarios in the case book. There are situations where the kicking team muffs the football down field, the ball rolls back behind the line of scrimmage, the kicking team picks the ball up and throws an incomplete pass, then the kicking team gets the ball 1st and 10.

Just saw this, but it's returns team ball. A muffed punt is not a possession.

If the return team is first to touch it beyond the neutral zone and the kicking team falls on the ball the then kicking team gets it 1st and 10.

 

So why is it illegal to hurdle the defense if you are running downfield unless they are down? What is the difference in that versus lunging over the d-line on the goal line in attempt to score?

 

Can't answer why...probably safety. There are probably several instance of rules not making sense of why they are like they are. Why is any kick that breaks the plane of the receiving team's goal line a touchback?

I've seen it done that way before and they always let it pass. As long as it is a hand to hand snap (can't do it out of the shotgun) and as long as it is done going forward then they are going to let it pass. Consider that you will see them underhand it or sometimes just seem to push the ball forward on a shuffle/shovel/Utah pass and it's not much different than what you see in the video, just going forward instead of down.

In the book there are forward passes and backward passes. Underhand or overhand doesn't matter.

 

Another term people use that is not a football term is lateral. There's no such thing, it's a backward pass per the book.

I am curious what the rules state about Spiking the ball to stop the clock. Does the player have to make an actually throwing motion? I have not heard the official wording in the rule book for this. I was filming a game the other night and saw this Spike to stop the clock and it looked like he just took the snap and with both hands pushed the ball down into the ground. I thought you needed to at least make a throwing passing motion into the ground.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6XEh88NQV4&feature=youtu.be

“It is legal to conserve time by intentionally throwing the ball forward to the ground immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand-snap.â€

 

Excerpt From: NFHS & Bob Colgate. “2014 NFHS Football Rules Book.†NFHS. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/mhUz0.l

How is a Personal foul 15 yards and not an automatic first down..twice once in Jamboree for us and last night against us it has been called but the yardage wasn't enough for a first down One was inside the 10.. Is it not an automatic first down in HS football?

It's just 15 yards. Pass interference is not a first down either.

NFHS rules are adopted by all states aren't they?

All but Texas and Massachusetts.

 

That said, some states will "test" rules for a year or so before they are put in the NFHS book for everybody.

I actually found the rule in the NFHS rule book in section 9:9. It states that an opposing teams band can not play during a play on the field while the opposing team has the ball. It falls under "unfair acts" and can range in a penalty of 5 yards for delay of game up to 15 yards and automatic first down for unsportsmanlike. A warning is given first then a penalty.

If the quarterback cant communicate to his team he can simply turn to the referee and let him know he cant communicate with his team then its the referees duty to warn the AD from the opposing school.

SECTION

9

UNFAIR

ACTS

ART. 1 . . . A player or nonplayer or person(s) not subject to the rules shall not hinder

play by an unfair act which has no specific rule coverage.

ART. 2 . . . No team shall repeatedly commit fouls which halve the distance to the goal

line.

ART. 3 . . . No player shall hide the ball under a jersey.

ART. 4 . . . No player shall use a kicking tee in violation of Rule 1-3-4.

ART. 5 . . . Neither team shall commit any act which, in the opinion of the referee,

tends to make a travesty of the game.

PENALTY: Unfair act – the referee enforces any penalty he considers equitable,

including the award of a score – (S27). Repeated fouls (Art. 2) – the game may be

forfeited. Hiding the ball under a jersey, (Art. 3) (S27) – 15 yards basic spot. Using

illegal kicking tee, (Art. 4), (S27) – 15 yards basic spot.

NOTE: The penalties in Rules 9-9-3 and 9-9-4 are not charged to the coach or player

for the purpose of unsportsmanlike conduct disqualifications.

 

Not sure where you're finding this...granted what I just posted is from a 2014 PDF rule book I have.

 

I can tell you that you wouldn't talk to the opposing AD. Each game has a game administrator and if anything was done it would be up to that person not the AD of the school you have a problem with.

 

For us, as long as there is no whistle coming from the stands then the band can do what they want.

What are the loss of down and yardage penalties? I believe there are 4.

Illegally handing the ball forward

Illegal forward pass

Intentional grounding

Illegal touching

Here is some info:

 

SECTION 6 COACHES FIELD EQUIPMENT

ART. 1 . . . Communication devices including but not limited to audio recorder, Local Area Network (LAN) phones and/ or headsets, mobile phones, still photograph( s), film , analog or digital video( s) and/ or Internet depictions, shall not be used to communicate with a player except during an outside 9-yard mark conference (7-yard marks in nine-, eight- and six-player competition).

NOTE: Each state association may authorize the use of a drum by a team composed of deaf or partially deaf players, in order to establish a rhythmic cadence following the ready-for-play signal.

 

ART. 2 . . . Communication devices including but not limited to audio recorder, Local Area Network (LAN) phones and/ or headsets, mobile phones, still photograph( s), film , analog or digital video( s) and/ or Internet depictions may be used by coaches and nonplayers.

Those are straight from the rule book. As long as their not being used in the middle of the field during a timeout there isn't much not allowed on the sidelines.

Hearing Scrimmages (like Oakland-Ravenwood) going on with no officials. Is the officials shortage real?

In my area, yes the officials shortage is real. Since I began we have have 1/3 less officials now than we did when I started. We are also working a lot of 7 man crews now.

 

For us, we have plenty to cover scrimmages. I haven't heard of scrimmages intentionally going without officials due to shortage.

 

People don't want to get into it. We have a handful of new ones each year but only a few of those make it to the next season. I don't think some want to learn and go through the progressions starting with youth football, I don't think some have the time for the commitment, and I don't think some can't take the yelling they receive regardless of level.

Please clarify blocks on kickers after the kickoff. One game this year out of 11, a player immediately went after the kicker on all 5 kickoffs.

“The kicker or place-kick holder of a free kick may not be blocked before:

 

a. He has advanced 5 yards beyond his free-kick line; or

 

b. The kick has touched the ground or any other player.â€

 

Excerpt From: NFHS & Bob Colgate. “2014 NFHS Football Rules Book.†NFHS. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/mhUz0.l

Bump

It's not a secret, TSSAA are now "short" or will be "short" of officials/referees. I'm curious, in your opinion, what needs to be done in order to change it and make the younger generation get into refereeing football games/other sports? I'm focusing on football sense we're both football officials.

I've wondered the same. Our numbers have drops by about 50 or so since I started a few years ago. We have new guys every year but they don't always stick it out. I think many don't want to work youth games the first couple of years. Many want to be on the field on Friday nights. If you've been around a while you know it takes probably 2-3 years before you're ready to even try Friday nights.

 

I am not sure how to recruit new guys. We ran an ad on the radio at one time but that was a one day thing.

 

We basically get new guys by word of mouth. I think it would be a good idea to go on college or possibly high school

2 questions...

 

1. is it intentional grounding when the QB throws the ball over the head of the receiver and out of bounds on a screen pass?

 

2. is it pass interference when the ball is 20 yards overthrown and no possible way for the catch to be made?

 

thanks

1 - it can be if you deem the throw was made in an effort to just throw it away. Will you ever see it called? Probably not.

 

2 - there is no such thing as an uncatchable ball in high school. So yes, it can be pass interference.

Bump

so basically, directly behind the center is the safe zone for punters, unless he muffs or fumbles the snap?

No. If he is holding the ball he can be hit since he is a runner, doesn't matter where he's at. The punter only gets protection when he's kicking or just kicked.

 

 

“Running into or roughing the kicker or holder. A defensive player shall neither run into the kicker nor holder, which is contact that displaces the kicker or holder without roughing; nor block, tackle or charge into the kicker of a scrimmage “kick, or the place-kick holder, other than when:

 

a. Contact is unavoidable because it is not reasonably certain that a kick will be made.

 

b. The defense touches the kick near the kicker and contact is unavoidable.

 

c. Contact is slight and is partially caused by movement of the kicker.

 

d. Contact is caused by R being blocked into the kicker or holder by K.â€

I was at a game last week and some fans had a bull horns and kept playing the siren sound all the time during the game even when the apposing team was snapping the ball. I did not think you could use electronic noise making devices at a football game.

Nothing against it to my knowledge. The only thing we've ever worried about were whistles from the stands.

Hey...Why teams in Nashville Metro can't wear tinted visors but teams outta middle tn get to wear them?

Can't answer that.

 

I can tell you that tinted are illegal. The book clearly states they must be clear.

with the rugby style punters becoming more popular, what is rule about hitting the punter when he starts his "run" to punt,

When he's running with the ball he is a runner and can be hit.

OK, I have another one.

 

On a punt, do you have to go for the block and hit the ball first before hitting/tackling the punter?

If the ball is tipped or blocked then it's not running into or roughing. I would not suggest plowing through a kicker that is in the process of kicking or has kicked the ball unless you've tipped or blocked the ball first or unless the kicker is running around with the ball in his hands.