Reffin

Central beat Clinton 60 to 43 last night. Ugly game! Clinton kid got ejected for elbowing a kid in the face. It went down hill from there. Ref's didn't control the game at all. I believe they got tired of Clinton's whining and started calling everything. Just a really ugly game.

The Central kids seemed to handle the BS better than the Clinton kids and coaches did. Frustration may be setting in on a horrible year for the Dragons.

If Clinton don't learn to box out......!!!!!!!!

I think this game was controlled as well as it could have been. It was a mess! I agree that Central seemed to handle the BS much better than Clinton did. Staying composed in a game like that says a lot about the team. You could see that Clinton was dealing with much more frustration than just last nights game! The bench was nearly out of control on the Clinton side.

CHAMBERLIN IS A SMART BASKETBALL PLAYER WHO CAN SHOOT. HE IS MAYBE A LITTLE ABOVE AVERAGE ATHLETE BUT HE CAN SHOOT AND HE IS ABOUT 6 FT 2 OR 6 FT 3 . A VERY GOOD BALL HANDLER.

 

OBVIOUSLY JOE JACKSON IS THE BEST GUARD AROUND. I DONT THINK MANY WILL ARGUE THAT. BUT CHAMBERLIN IS DEFINETLY ONE OF THE BETTER JUNIOR GUARDS THAT WILL PLAY IN THE STATE TOURNEY.

I've only seen Bearden play once and that was against Oak Hill. They gave them all they wanted. Cutting it to a 5 point lead with less than 5:00 to go in the 4th quarter. Oak Hill is stacked.

I haven't seen any of the others mentioned play this season, but they need to be pretty tough to knock Bearden off.

I'm not sold on the 5 in 5 out sub method that Bearden pulls but it's workd so far.

"As Obama (or whoever he stole it from)"

I just love the political bash!! LOVE IT!! /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

In regards to a shot clock, you hit the nail on the head a few posts back. Finding someone to work it and work it properly would be a logistical nightmare.

 

 

I would ask this about that game you saw between Lenoir City and Campbell County. I'll agree that just holding the ball is usually " playing scared " but if CC just sat back in a zone then it says to me their defense isn't good enough to challenge. That's playing "scared" defensively. It says I'm not coming out because I might get carved up. I still contend that if a team's only recourse is to hold the ball then they probably don't have the ability to hold on to the ball if pressed.

Ya i agree. That game went back to bad coaching on the part of CC. Come out and pressure. Use the 5 second count if nothing else!!! I don't understand why some coaches combat the "freeze" with a stand there for 8 minutes D???? Oh well!!

Ya the shot clock would be great but when you are somewhere that has a group of Juniors running the clock anyway..... A shot clock would be a disaster!!!!

Do you mean not count ten seconds for the women's game? The men still have 10 seconds in college, correct? I am being serious, not trying to sound stupid. Do the men still have that in college? And I agree, they are not going to make it easier, just wishing they would. I am torn on the idea of a shot clock. I think the shot clock could be a good thing, but on the other hand, the under manned teams that have to slow the game down would be at a disadvantage with a shot clock. So I am up in the air on that one. I see both pros and cons, I guess.

Yes Men's has a 10 second backcourt violation and women's does not. Women's has a 30 second shot clock and men's has a 35 second shot clock. Riddle me that batman?? I don't get it....

With the style of play today i would say 99% of the trips up and down the floor are less than 35 seconds. When you get to the end of the game you will see some more slow down but not a lot. It's just not part of the game anymore.

I just think it would help keep the game going when you run in to these games where a team just stands there at the end of the game. I can remember a game back in the early 90's where Lenoir City and Campbell County were in the region or sub-state and Lenoir City just stood there all night. Maybe it wasn't Lenoir City??? Regardless it happened and I know Campbell County was one of the teams. They completely off set the high powered offence that CC had by not giving them the ball all night. You can say that is good coaching for being scared to death of your opponent.

I don't know.. It would be interesting to see how it worked out....

You are right about the horse collar being illegal in high school, starting this upcoming season. What I was saying is that we had coaches yelling it last year, when it was not illegal in high school. I wish the rules gurus would get together and make high school rules match the college rules so that those who watch Saturday football would be a little bit more knowledgeable about the high school rules. It would also make the transition from high school officiating to collegiate officiating a little easier.

Oh please!!! You think the "rules guru's" are going to do anything to make it easier!! This goes back to another post but i think we should have a shot clock and standardize, as much as possible, the college game with the highschool game. You know how hard it is to count ten seconds on Friday night in high school game and turn around and NOT count it on Saturday in a college gym???

I agree.... Make it more simple. Won't happen cause those shot clock systems are a little pricy and you would need someone at the table smart enough to hit a button when a ball hits the rim..... We can all dream!!!!

Wow. Where to even start. Make officials more accountable, Grade them fairly and objectively, reward the good ones. You need to skip officiating and go all the way to being a supervisor!! We don??™t get paid that much, the supervisors really don??™t get paid that much so who is going to do all this evaluating??? This is not a full time job folks!! Maybe if you paid $150 bucks a game for a ticket it could be and you would get the dedication that you want out of it!!

The coaches know the game better than anybody??¦.. Really??? Come on??¦??¦

I??™m sorry I have to stick to my guns. I was one of the most belligerent people to officials prior to becoming one. With the experience I now have, I know how to be a better fan, parent, coach and just person in general.

It applies everywhere. Don??™t gripe at your server at a restaurant until you have been one. Don??™t get mad at your wife till you have done the laundry yourself. Don??™t get mad at your kid??™s teacher till you have taught yourself. When you get the experience you can make an educated decision as to whether the people you are criticizing are doing a good job or a bad job. And odds are after being in their shoes you will respond in a more respectful manner.

Or you could just be an idiot and none of this experience will matter. You will get on a message board and dog out the very people you once were??¦.

I still think every fan should be required to take some kind of rules course prior to being admitted to a gym!! Sort of like a drivers license test! Take the course, pass the test you get to come to a game. At least then they will have an understanding of the rules??¦..

One time fee of $150 for the course and then you just pay $3 bucks to get in! What a deal??¦. I??™ll teach??¦.

Would it help if the refs stayed together as a crew for a whole season? I know refereeing soccer that when I work with the same guys/gals for a time we get to know what each one is thinking and call a much better game. NBA, MLB, NFL does this ...why would'nt it work for HS.

You know i think the same thing. But it goes back to development of younger officials. If you are in a crew all year, which i think would be a great thing, the younger guys would get left out in the cold. Now if they could somehow plan where one crew has a senior, junior and new varsity offical every year that might work.

Being comfortable with your patners is realy important. I think being comfortable enough to tell them they are wrong when they are wrong would come from that continuous exposure. Maybe revolving crews?? I know the job of an assigning officer is hard! Not one i would ever want! But that might even make it easier on them. You only need substitutes when a standard member can't make it.

But, to add fuel to the fire, what if you get a "bad" crew? Then they are together all year.... Or first half of the year... Who knows?? But i think that would be a great thing to try out!

I have seen some pretty well officiated games so far in the post-season.

 

2 areas for improvement

 

1. Have a more patient whistle. See the whole play before you crack the whistle. DON'T JUST BE A WHISTLE BLOWER !!!

2. Lead calling across the lane when the Center official does not have a whistle. If you are the lead official and you want to put air in your whistle on a post play , get your backside across the lane so yo can get a good look at it. Trust your partner and ROTATE !!!

 

 

Those that are working the next few weeks - CONGRATS !!

 

Travel Safe and HAVE FUN !!!

Both good points!! I agree, rotate, get in position and be patient on your whistle. (Little hard to do since not patient and patient is about a .4 second difference!!) Look for reasons to rotate!!

This guy knows his stuff!! Thanks for the input!!

In response to the question that started this thread....a resounding YES. And it can be done in a variety of ways, some rather obvious, other ways not so obvious. I've watched Tennessee high school basketball for close to 40 years now and it is as bad as I've ever seen. Too much inconsistency from one call to the next and sadly too much guessing. And this is with 3 of them on the court.

 

Even those you see call state tourney games leave a lot to be desired. They've gotten all wrapped up as to where & how to stand during timeouts, holding up one finger at the first horn, etc.etc. & and forgotten how to call the game. Looking like a referee doesn't make one a referee.

 

It's gut check time for officials and their associations. The quality & pace of the game is picking up. It's time they do the same.

"Guessing"??? Get a whistle and come out to help!! What do you propose, specifically, that we do to fix the problems you see?

Let??™s see, if this becomes our full time job and you can pay us $60K to $100K+ per year then we could dedicate all of our time to becoming better officials. Of course, this being the case, you would now need to pay about $150 per game to go watch your kids play.

Hey, I would love to officiate for a living??¦. Much better than the board room!! Do you have any other ideas that might make things better? Or just want to criticize with no offer of a solution?

Somebody did WHAT ????? /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" />

Sorry i mis-spoke. It was Tuesday night. Some parent went out on the floor of a wrestling match arguing with the referee and head butted him!! The dad was from White Pine and the referee was from Dandridge!! Here is the link if it goes through. If not it's at wate and go to the sports page. But, he apologized so it's all OK now!! HAHA!

http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp?S=9944599

OK which one of you guys got so worked up that you went out and head butted a referee last night!!!! HAHA!!! Dang ol Jeff Co. man!! /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

I'm not trying to help prove or disprove anyone's opinion here. I'm just of the opinion that an official should be able to call bull if he/she sees it and not be chastised for not just falling in line. Now, that said if a person is going to identify themselves as an official ( as you have Reffin ) or as a coach then it needs to be understood that tact and a strong but respectful attitude must be taken ( as I believe you have )

 

 

( but yes, if my opinion loses I blame the officials on this thread /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" /> )

I'm sorry but the "If my opinion loses......" just made me laugh really loud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is awesome!!!!! /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

Finally, I have a few guys agree with me! Awake sleeping GIANT... haha... Mr. Reffin here I guess just worded it better for all to understand... You sir Must be a living legend as a referee..

Does this mean we win??? It must have been the officials fault!! HAHA

Just curious but what would lead you to believe that ( Understanding : This is an honest question )

I??™m just very suspicious. I have never worked with anyone that would tout their own successes so freely and in the same breath berate a fellow official. I think it??™s very funny where this post has gone since he joined. For the most part it was just a back and forth about rules, situations and opinions till negative Nancy joined.

It??™s a strange group of folks that choose to do this. Typically pretty humble. Outgoing but normally humble people. I sense the force is weak in this one??¦.

I??™m just relying on my judgment!! That tends to get us in trouble sometimes too!!

I am done with this argument. You obviously don't get my side of the story. If there is reason for me to hang it up, then I would gladly do so. If I had numerous complaints about my officiating, I would quit. I just think that there are some in the profession that should not be there. Obviously there are some that agree with this or this topic would not have been started. We have all seen bad officiating, some may have even seen it when I was on the field. When an official can not be unbiased, he or she should not be calling that game. Thats all I am saying. You dont agree. I can live with that.

Dang it why do I have to have a real job and not able to set here all day and play with you guys!!

OK so I want to try this on for size??¦.

I was approved to work the final four last night, work for unapproved website as a ???Rules Analyst??? did 6 NBA playoff games last year. I worked International Games for the Olympics and wrote this past years rule book??¦??¦

Those are all facts??¦ Don??™t question me??¦. I said it online it must be the truth!!

Still think you are a liar.

???First off, don't ever question my integrity by questioning if I am telling the truth.???

Liar.

Now when can I expect my message board beating?

I understand the officiating side of things, as I am a football official. But watching high school basketball officials over the past 10 years, I have seen a decline in the level of officiating. For whatever reason, some of the officials in basketball think that everyone is there to watch them. I say some, because I know that for the most part officials are doing a good job, at least the best that they can. I am even ok with the occasional missed call. I am not ok with there being no repercussions for officials, football included. I mean if kick a coach out and then look back on film and realize that he did not deserve it, I should be punished somehow. I know of a coach that was ejected this season from a basketball game. He got the first T for arguing a block/charge call. Deserved the first one. Called a timeout and while addressing his players in the huddle, quit calmly said "I don't care if they call it or not, take the charge." Whistle blows and ref gives him Tech number 2. Cost the coach $250 and 2 game suspension. What did the ref get, nothing. Those are the situations that I have a problem with. I too was at the LC/OR game Saturday and it was the worst officiating that I have seen in my 20+ years around the sport. I have never walked away from a game and said the officials cost a team a game until Saturday. Tyler Hood, the best player in Region 2AAA was on the bench within 3 minutes of the 2nd quarter with 3 fouls. He was being pushed, kicked, held, shoved, everytime he tried to post up. One time, he was being horse collared around the neck and the ref called a double foul. When Coach Wells began to gripe, the ref (same one that Downtown247 mentioned) told him that it would "only get worse before the night was over." How can a guy like that be calling a game that is so important to these kids, especially the seniors. Those kids will never see the floor again, yet this one official is probably going to be officiating tonight somewhere. With Hood in the game, LC probably wins. Again, officials I am not lumping all of you into this group, but there are several out there that try to stick it to one team or one coach.

Sorry but I find it hard to believe that you are an official. Once an official, always an official. We are our only friends! We do get ???punished??? for screwing up. If I went out and pulled some stunt that got 15 calls to the state office the following morning in a region game then I probably won??™t be going to the state!

That is punishment. I have seen officials removed from games because of something that goes on during the week. For the most part you don??™t get to this level if you haven??™t proven yourself along the way. Saying that someone needs to be punished is a pretty big statement. Why don??™t you actually offer a solution as apposed to a generalization??

How should we be punished in your opinion? Let??™s look at it. You said you have seen a decline in Basketball. First it??™s not an appealing job because of folks like you. How are you going to entice more and more quality people to come out and get blasted night in and night out?? So you can??™t get new talent, all the more experienced guys are hanging it up, they all say it??™s gotten out of control before they leave. So now it??™s input output. So you don??™t have enough bodies. You get a person that has proved themselves and you put them on the floor. Someone acts like an idiot and you toss them. So now you say on video it doesn??™t look like they deserved it. OK let??™s suspend the official so he is too scared to do his job next time. Now the coach can push it a little farther. Now the official quits. Cause really who wants to get yelled at for a net profit of $60 a night??? And that is with gas at $2 a gallon!

You say you??™re a football official. If basketball is declining so much then become a two sporter! Please help us out!! We obviously can??™t do a quality job without you!!!

bada ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding......I hear the banjo playing in your background.......you don't get out much do you bulldog......Won't your Sister, I mean your Mom let you come out and play..... /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" /> /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

Sorry to digress but would that not mean that your dad had inappropriate relations with his daughter, producing offspring, you, and making her your Mom and half sister??? That??™s just gross! /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

Wow a lot went on since yesterday! I should just ad this to my list of ???part time??? jobs. For most of us that chose the profession we can??™t let go of the game! Most are very successful people off the court. Several people that walk in to those gyms and put the stripes on make more than everyone else in the gym combined. (I like those guys they usually drive) Most have very high ethical standards and would not consciously make the decision to call one way or the other. But, like I said yesterday, what would you do if someone at work came in and just started blasting you. Whether it??™s a conscious or subconscious decision it will affect your performance in one way or another. So I understand the point about understanding Human Nature and completely agree.

That goes back to the point about completely berating a ref. Do you think it is going to help your cause or hurt it?? Human Nature leans towards hurt. So when you don??™t agree with the way a game is being officiated and you lose your mind on the side lines. You are probably making it a little worse. And I would say most of the time the official is not making a conscious decision either way. Like you said??¦. It??™s Human Nature.

Lord knows I have spent countless hours in a conference room being told that constructive criticism and positive affirmation is the way to get more out of my employees. Degrading and berating them will do nothing but subvert the objective??¦.. Yada Yada Yada??¦. Same principle could apply here.

I??™m not expecting to get a bunch of roses thrown out on the court after each game. But I??™m not expecting tomatoes either. Definitely not bricks! I missed a lot of layups in my playing days!!!! More than I care to remember. We tell the players before most games during the captains meetings??¦. ???Guys, you don??™t miss any shots and we won??™t miss any calls.??? Sad to say I haven??™t had a game pan out that way!!

As for not being criticized or held accountable for our actions on the floor??¦. You obviously haven??™t been on the receiving end of a supervisors scrutiny after a game. You feel bad about some of the things you did for days. They are brutally honest with us. And for needing better officials. You seem to know all the requirements??¦. I??™m sure your local association would LOVE to have you!! There are fewer and fewer new officials every year. I would say fans like you play some part in that!! /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

I have a rulle question...intentional foul...what is the rule and why isnt it called a little more often

To speak to your rule question??¦. One part is simple. If you intentionally, in the judgment of the official, foul someone it is an intentional foul.

That being said, why isn??™t it called more?? I have no idea. It seems that it is reserved for an intentional foul that somehow threatens someone??™s life. I completely agree it should be called more.

We let one go the other night that should have been an intentional foul. Of course hind sight is 20/20. We discussed it in the post game and hopefully won??™t make that mistake again.

When a team is trying to stop the clock and does not make a play on the ball, in most cases, it should probably be intentional. I think we let that go because it has become part of the game. Right or wrong, I think that is what happens.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty clear it was a joke. I was told a long time ago that " the refs are right 100% of the time to 50% of the people", depending which side they sat on. No more correct statement has ever been made about refs!!! /flower.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":flower:" border="0" alt="flower.gif" />

Ya i thought you were kidding!! Wow you have heard we are right 100% of the time to 50% of the people!! I would think it's closer to the 80/20 rule!!

It will be interesting to see what comes out of this after the region champ games!!

OK hopefully you dont ref like you read!My third or fourth sentence said that I have refed games before! The player im talking about said nothing to the ref they were on complete opposite sides of the gym. He was talking to the coach while the player that was fouled took his foul shots and he called him for it in the middle of the other player tring to shoot. And Im positive that he would have had to yell whatever for the ref to be able to hear him in that gym. Its not like he was standing on top of him. Last time I heard talking to the coach didnt warrent a "T". The coach does have more control than the refs i agree. If a coach has a player that is commiting hard fouls like that they should pull that player if they have any decency to them. But if they wont do it then its the refrees job to "T" up the kid and get rid of him before someone gets hurt. And it is the officials fault if they let things like that go on thats why we have the right to eject kids from the game or give them a "T" and hope they learn from it and keep playing. As to the foul count thing I was talking about: It was uncalled for. If either side moved there was a foul called. Alot of it stupid stuff that shoud have never been called. And then alot that should have been was let go. By the time it was done both teams were down to their second string of players and some of them bout fouled out. Thats going to far. Just like if a crew dont call anything during a game its not right and not fair to either side! Btw buddy we did win Saturday night and I still believe that the ref was dead wrong on what he did. Like I said I go into a game giving the refs a fair chance along with both teams I know what its like to have to call games. But when you have things like that going on then something needs to be done! Im sure I could probably get you a copy of the game calls from the radio station so that you can hear for your self what happened up here and it wasnt just our radio guy that said it was screwed up it was DCAs too from what ive been told. We have some very good refs inTN but we aslo have those that dont belong refing a todlers game.

 

 

Are you from 7AA?

Reading all of your posts I can tell that you go in to a game giving the officials a fair shot! HA! And by the way ???buddy???, you can??™t count Junior Pro or your little sisters practice games as ???Referee??? experience!

It??™s a little different when the games matter. So like I said before. You know how much it costs. Put your money where your mouth is. Put some stripes on and see how you feel afterwards. If you had actually been in the locker room at half time of a tightly contested game your tone would be entirely different.

They use "out of area" refs for one reason, and one reason only. This voids the regular season "payoff" that the District Champ made to the refs!!!! ( that is why they won, right?). It also gives the refs a 2nd chance for a payoff from the "new" teams in the region. I can't believe everybody doesn't know this!!! From every thread I have read posted by the losing fans, it seems pretty clear to me. /rolleyes.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":rolleyes:" border="0" alt="rolleyes.gif" />

Man I hope you??™re kidding!! If people out there are getting pay off??™s I want to renegotiate my contract!! What a joke. We are lucky to get paid our mileage!! They pitch a fit about that!! I??™m sorry the TSSAA requires me to drive 100 miles to referee a game. I would much rather drive 5 miles from my house than drive 100 miles to get yelled at!! I can get yelled at close to home just as easy as I can on the other side of the state!!

I have never even met an official that has accepted or been offered a pay off. And we talk about EVERYTHING on those two hours drives!! WOW??¦.

I think you two would be the ones i would tell, It's a $35 registration fee, $30 for the shirt, $40 for the pants, $5 for the whistle, $100 for the shoes and we take almost all comers!

Some people have this opinion that we have 100% control over what goes on out on the court. Simply not true. The coach, in my opinion, has more control than we do. All we can do is blow the whistle. If little Johnny gets his head tore off we call the foul and coach leaves Guido in the ball game to take out another hit two plays later, how is that the officials fault?? The coach has just as much control, and in my opinion more, than anyone else in the gym. We just blow whistles.

Another thing, what is this foul count business all about??? I had a game on Saturday where the foul shot difference was around 30??¦. One team shot 39 I believe and the other shot 7. How on earth is that my fault?? If one team is jacking 3??™s from all over the court and playing full court man up defense. The foul count is going to be skewed.

So the foul count and foul shot discrepancy means NOTHING. It??™s all in the context of the game. It??™s easy to list that out in the box score on Monday but it means nothing. Put one of Reggie Miller??™s teams up against the old school Detroit Pistons and I??™m sure there is a huge foul discrepancy. But it??™s all about style of play and not whether Steve Jabby blew his whistle enough.

As for the ???player said nothing??? comment. I have two examples for you. One about two weeks ago. A player walked by me and said ???Mother @#*%&??? Not a person in the gym heard him but me. He got a technical and the players dad yelled at me that he was the best kid in his Sunday School class what could he have possibly said to get at ???T???. I didn??™t want to break his heart that Little Johnny knew profanity and, heaven forbid, actually used it!!

Example number two: Middle School game about 3 years ago. A kid, probably in sixth grade, Said now that is a Bull *&%$ Call. Same thing. No one heard it but me! Not Little Johnny!! He could do no wrong!!

It??™s all perception. You go to a game wanting to see your school win. If they don??™t win you place blame on others. Goes with the current economic crisis. You were so stupid you got in over your head in debt. Must be the government and the lenders fault!! Not yours. You can do no wrong!! ???

I think all psychology majors, as a study in perception, should be required to referee for 3 years. Heck everyone for that matter!!