michael.geasley

For what it's worth...The Independence High School website shows them participating in the FRA Duals this weekend.

I'm undecided on this one.

I know Georgia has a lot more "State Champions" then we do, but there are a lot more people (i.e. wrestlers) in Georgia. I wish I knew the ratio of wrestlers to champions in each state.

I'd love to have RMC's input on this subject. At what point do you get too many champions?

Oneblindref, reftn, tnsmokediver, and whoever else that is on here that is a referee:

I endorse the earlier comment that tnsmokediver made about respect. In my opinion, no one should address a referee (or hardly anyone else, for that matter) in a disrespectful manner. (Although some may consider my tendency to point out the rules from the stands to be disrespectful, I do not intend it to be disrespectful, just informative…I don’t call the referees names just because they didn’t recall a particular rule at the time).

I do not think any of the referees would cheat for one wrestler against another, nor do I believe that they would consciously favor one school against another (with the exception of the halo effect some coaches may subconsciously have on some referees).

However, this year alone I've witnessed many erroneous calls that were avoidable.*

With this in mind, I ask you as referees, how should we in the wrestling community provide feedback to the referees?

V/R,

Hardly Anonymous.

*I didn't list details here because I assume each of you would agree with the general statement that there are referees that make avoidable erroneous calls. Although I wouldn't name names (see point one, above), I can give you situations I've observed and let you decide if they were avoidable erroneous calls.

You're correct, there were double forfeits at 103 and 145.

Franklin had a wrestler that was at the correct weight for 145 but weighed in for the 152 weight class, so he could not take the 145 forfeit. To his credit, the Franklin coach did not make a big deal about it. Of course, at the time he probably didn't expect that the match would be so close at the end.

The match was not quite as exciting as it might have seemed because Franklin actually had a seven point advantage before the last match.

I'm pretty sure at least one Heacock wrestled for Franklin that night, but there may be two that normally wrestle for them. In other words, I don't know the answer to Sommer's question concerning Heacock's injury status.

Franklin beat Page by 1 (30 something to 30 something + 1)

Franklin beat Centennial DK score

Page beat Centennial DK score

Was there a best match and/or best wrestler award?

How funny, this argument comes up each year on this board and the same points are made by the opposing sides.

To summaries prior years' arguments:

Chattanooga area does an excellent job of running the tournament. Don't fix it if it isn’t broke.

Vs.

It's not fair that Chattanooga has the tournament in their back yard each year.

Are there any new points I missed?

How great would it be to have all region teams, out of the ten new regions (say all the region champions in the individual tournamenst)have them wrestle in a dual sometime after the state tournament. That would be awesome and see which regions actually had the toughest teams. Just take the 14 region champions from each of the public school regions and have a dual with the other nine. I think that would be an awesome idea. DOes anybody else think it would be good.

This is one of the coolest ideas I've seen in a long time.

Jack, the Senior Reff is the worst excuse of a Reff I've ever seen. Poor old man cannot even see. I think it's about time he throws in the towel.

Xertan, I know it is frustrating when referees don't call matches the way we want, but I don't think it is helpful to single out a particular referee by name.

If you read REFTN's post on this thread, you'll agree that he gave honest, straightforward, non-defensive answers. However, if fans like you and I attack the referees with anonymous posts, then we will not receive any helpful answers from the referees.

I have loudly "helped" many referees during matches. Many of these referees have not appreciated my "assistance" and have let me know. However, I have not been abusive to them. Verbal abuse of the referee will rightly result in my expulsion from the gymnasium. However, non-abusive language at least has a chance to get my point across to the referee.

Michael,

 

At any point, the coach may throw a towel in and stop the match IMMEDIATELY. If I am a coach and my kid is in this kind of distress, I am tossing a towel in.

 

Not being an apologetist here for my side, a kid is on his back in near fall, we dont want the kid to miss his pin and are closely watching the defensive shoulders. This is a situation where having the assistant referee is invaluable. It is his job to watch for such things as tapping out, though it is rare. Absent that, we are, or should be checking shoulders (both offensive and defensive), hands to face, clear air passages, blood, arm slip out of a headlock, and so on.

 

Not trying to hang this on the coach, but I would want to know why he didnt throw a towel in?

 

Safety of the wrestler is our #1 job. If we missed a tap out, we missed a big one.

 

reftn

REFTN, thank you for again providing a straight forward, non-defensive answer. I agree with everything you said.

I can not fault a referee for simply not seeing the wrestler "tapping out". However, in this case I had the impression that the referee did not recognize that the wrestler had the "prerogative" (to use the rule book's terminology) to default during the match, or he did not recognize "tapping out" as a sign of defaulting by the wrestler. When I get a chance, I'll try to ask the referee that made this call exactly how he interpreted the situation (if he is willing to discuss it with me).

 

...I've also seen a wrestler, who is being held in a guillotine. moan in pain and rapidly tap the mat (many would recognize it as "tapping-out), yet the referee didn't recognize the wrestler's gestures as a default (Rule 5, § 5, also see Case Book and Manual Rule 5, § 5 situation, as well as Rule 6 § 4, Article 4), nor did the referee choose to stop the match and award 2, 3 or 4 near fall points. (Rule 5, § 9, Article 2, f through i). Luckily for this wrestler the second time he moaned and tapped the mat it was at the end of the period. It just doesn't seem safe, legal or fair to make a kid continue to wrestle in agony when he doesn't wish to. (Although I would disagree, some might judge that the offensive wrestler was intentionally and illegally inflicting pain. Even so, I feel the match should have been stopped).

 

REFTN, Thanks for your honest, straight forward answers on this thread.

Above is part of my earlier post. Would you mind providing your evaluation of this situation? I hope I've explained it well enough for you to make a comment.

If any other referee or otherwise knowledgeable person has a comment, please feel free to do so. However, be advised that if you disagree with me and prove me wrong I'll be forced to defend myself with vicious personal attacks on your character and family bloodline. Okay, just kidding.

who's going to be there?

Independence

Page

BA has exams on Friday and they start 5 freshmen and have only 1 senior on the entire team. McCallie is not a good "get your feet wet" type tourney.

Sorry, this subject was way off the intent of this string.

To explain: "Offspring56" responded to a post I made last season in which I forgot to list Centennial as a participator in the "Battle of Independence" tournament. In responding to Offspring's post, I took the opportunity to chide Centennial for being a last minute drop out from that same tournament when it was held this year.

My comments had nothing to do with BA or the McCallie tournament. In fact, BA played a huge part in making the "Battle of Independence" tournament a success this year by bring such a large group of talented wrestlers. Thanks BA, I hope to see you here again next year.

I say that I will pay your 50.00 for you to get a shirt and whistle and dare you to to do a better job. Clint Abbott

I agree with those who say that wrestling referees are to be commended for their dedication to the sport and that the referees do not choose to do this job for the small amount of money they earn. I am very glad that there are men that are willing to take on the duties of a referee.

However, it appears to me that every time a negative comment about a referee’s call is posted on this message board several people choose to ignore the problem that was brought up and instead criticize the person that pointed out the problem.

Here are a couple of situations I've seen recently that indicate to me that not all referees are meeting the standards that should be required to do the job:

So far in this short season I seen a referee award near fall points to a defensive wrestler and then bet the coach $50 that it was the right call. (Rule 5, § 9, Article 2, & 2b) The coach missed out on an easy fifty bucks.

I've also seen a wrestler, who is being held in a guillotine. moan in pain and rapidly tap the mat (many would recognize it as "tapping-out), yet the referee didn't recognize the wrestler's gestures as a default (Rule 5, § 5, also see Case Book and Manual Rule 5, § 5 situation, as well as Rule 6 § 4, Article 4), nor did the referee choose to stop the match and award 2, 3 or 4 near fall points. (Rule 5, § 9, Article 2, f through i). Luckily for this wrestler the second time he moaned and tapped the mat it was at the end of the period. It just doesn't seem safe, legal or fair to make a kid continue to wrestle in agony when he doesn't wish to. (Although I would disagree, some might judge that the offensive wrestler was intentionally and illegally inflicting pain. Even so, I feel the match should have been stopped).

Okay, so now I'm the messenger, I'm ready to take my shots.

P.S. Someday, when I'm down to just one job, I may very well take up your challenge and don the black and white jersey (if I'm not black-balled first!).

you also forgot to list the team that no one hears about and that is centennial, who had like 5-6 champions in that turny....

...And was a last minute no-show this year. Gee, thanks

I watched Whitehouse wrestle Independence and Ravenwood. Whitehouse is a well coached, very physical team. It's like this team came from nowhere. Who is their coach?

Coach Peck, Thank you for posting the Region 6 rankings. I've got sons that wrestle at two different Region 6 high schools and your rankings help me to pay attention to the better wrestlers. Additionally, wrestlers don't get much publicity and this is one way that they can get some positive recognition for their hard work.

 

Also, whoever posted those results had Collins Hill going against Collins Hill in about half of the matches.

You are joking, right?

In the first question regarding redrawing, I disagree.  I think the premise for redrawing should be done to even the teams in a close number between geographic regions, not the success of any future team and then changing on a 4 or five year basis.  I do not believe that changing a team based on the previous four of five years, when the students (wrestlers) we will gone from the team and the teams composition changes every year.  Handicap is the correct word, your method attempts to take any precieved strength advantage away and in your view even the regions.  In horse racing, a precieved faster horse carries weights to "hadndicap" the precieved advantage of a race.  This is a similar concept.

 

On your thoughts about using the previous year as a measuring stick, on issue with that method is that when you get out of the top ten or so, and certainly out of the top twenty, the ranking of place finishing is not an accurate way to look at teams.  the difference between say 36 and 45 maybe a few points at best.  The only significant point speards that might show the strenght of a program occur in at the top of the ranking, outside of the top 10 or 15 it becomes a very blurry analysis, IMO>.

 

I do appreciate your request for a tissue, at least you have your humor with whine.

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Tex, "Handicap", I didn't intend to imply you were using the wrong word, I just wanted to know what you meant when you used it. I'm still missing your point that leveling the regions handicaps the stronger teams. It's just like seeding a tournament. My way most of the better wrestlers meet at the State tournament instead of many of them being eliminated prematurely in the region tournaments.

I agree with your point about the strength of teams blurring after the top echelon of teams. But, using the last four years data (weighting the most current year), would give a more accurate measure of the strength of each program. Kids change from year to year, but the strength of the programs change slowly.

Are you saying that regions should be redrawn based on the strength or perceived strength of the teams in a region?  I question how fair it continues to be for all the teams to try and handicap the better teams each time it is determined that a program has  swayed the balance of strength in a region.

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Yes, I think the regions should be redrawn to attempt to level the strength of the teams in each region. No, I don't think this should be done each year, but every four or five years would be nice, because some teams are going to improve and some teams are going to decline. Analysis, such as I have done previously in this thread, could be used to determine teams' strength. NO SOLUTION WILL BE PERFECT. But not attempting to address the problem at all is the worse solution, IMHO. When you said "handicap", is that the same as evaluate, rate, rank, etc. or were you using it in another fashion?

I would say how fair is it to any of the "less than strong competitive teams" that there are only three places going to the state tournament.  Probably will not affect Cleveland and Bradley that much, but what about the other teams in that region.

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After Bradley and Cleveland, the next two teams in region 3 are Cumberland County and Chattanooga Central, the 38th and 45th teams, respectively, in this year's State Tournament. Compare that to region 10 where the 3rd and 4th best teams in the region were Houston and Cordova, the 10th and 15th best teams at the State Tournament. Region 6's third and fourth best teams were Overton and Page, the 16th and 19th best teams in the State Tournament.

You bring up good points and there is no easy answer to your complaints.  What seems fair to one region will seem like an assault on another.

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To be as fair as possible the TSSAA should use measurable criteria to determine the regions and reevaluate the regions periodically.

Thanks for your feedback, can you hand me a tissue?

Help me out here, I was under the impression that the reason the Chattanooga area regions were so small was because of the high level of competition there.  Is that a complete myth? 

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Coach D, Tex or anyone else that knows, I'm reprinting my earlier question so I can get an answer. Does anyone know definitively? Thanks

Coach Delgado, I agree wholeheartedly with your point about the value of young wrestlers getting State Tournament experience early.

I don't agree that the regions are necessarily set. For example, it is my understanding that this year the TSSAA changed the criteria for competing at the State track meet with in a month of the beginning of this track season. I'm not criticizing TSSAA for this; I'm just using it as examples of the fact that the TSSAA has the ability to correct situations that they feel are wrong. I encourage the TSSAA to do this.

I understand that the regions are set up geographically. However, people decide the geographic boundaries. Gerrymandering is not necessarily a bad thing if it is done to ensure the student athlete is treated fairly.

Help me out here, I was under the impression that the reason the Chattanooga area regions were so small was because of the high level of competition there. Is that a complete myth? I really don't know. Obviously, if it is true, then I would ask for the same consideration for the region six and region ten areas, now that they have proven to be very strong wrestling areas.

Tex, I agree with you about the data I used being very limited. However, it is current data and therefore more valid than data from five years ago. Also, the date showed a significant variance between the top and bottom regions (if there had been only a small difference then I would not think it was a valid measure of the regions’ strengths). I would be willing to look at more historical data if the TSSAA would make it available to me. I also don't think the team point results at the State Tournament should be the only method of determining teams' strength. Medal count could be another method. Others might have additional suggestions. Additionally, as you suggested, if in five years the strength of the teams shift, then the regions could be realigned again.

One last comment...I realize that it could be that my complaints are valid, yet there are other factors, of which I am not aware, that prevent these complaints from being addressed. If there are, I just want to know what those factors are. Mr. Carter has a very demanding job, of which wrestling is a relatively small part. It is possible that TSSAA simply does not have a large enough staff to ensure complaints like this are addressed. I simply don't know, but would like to know.

Look Mike G., if you will pay attention to the thread you will see I did not bring Bradley up, Coach Delgado did.  Based on his comments, I have responded in a more than respectful manners.  (by the way I did bring up Cleveland, Soddy, McCallie, East Ridge, Hixon, Baylor and Chatt. Central).

 

All the rest of the post I agree with, even your comments about tools. (just kidding here, no disrespect intended). 

 

I wonder what you mean by you have no respect for any organization that does not recognize you same thoughts on inequity?  Seem kinda closed minded, in my opinion.

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Tex, One problem with posting on a board like this is that a comment that is not intended to be snide can come across that way. Such was my comment directed to you above. Additionally, I'm sure I did not pay enough attention to the posts above and incorrectly linked you with Bradley (however, I'm sure we all agree that Bradley is not a bad place to be linked).

Addressing your statement above about being close minded...I don't think I'm being close minded. For example, until I read some comments on here about region 10, I assumed region 6 was the only misaligned region. Once my eyes were opened to how tough region 10 will be, I have attempted to state their case, as well as that of region 6.

I'm not just blindly complaining about the misalignment of region 6. In this thread, I've stated analysis that I've done, based on the teams' past performances, which demonstrate how unfair the new alignment is. I invite discussion on my analysis and encourage others to do their own analysis. If I'm looking at this situation incorrectly, then show me where my assertions are incorrect.

The organization I was referring to in my previous post was TSSAA. If the final result of this issue is that TSSAA's leadership ignores this inequity, then I will not respect them for shirking their responsibility to the student athletes. HOWEVER, we have not yet reached the conclusion of this issue. I believe Mr. Carter is intelligent and resourceful, and he will make sure this situation is handled correctly.

In case someone else wants to crunch some numbers, I've provided the following information. For some reason, TSSAA has removed this information from their website, even though they have not removed the State Dual Tournament results. I wonder why they removed this information?

1.Bradley Central (Brad) 207; 2. Franklin (Frk) 194.5; 3. Soddy-Daisy (SD) 111; 4. Clarksville (Clk) 98.5; 5. Cleveland (Cleve) 94; 6. Farragut (Farr) 80.5; 7. Science Hill (SH) 76; 8. Collierville (Coll) 75; 9. Ridgeway (Ridge) 70; 10. Houston (Hou) 69; 11. Brentwood (Bw) 58; 12. Rossview (Ross) 52; 13. Blackman (Black) 50; 14. Hendersonville (Hv) 49; 15. Cordova (Cord) 45.5; 16. Overton (Ov) 43.5; 17. Union County (UnionC) 41; 18. Kingsport Dobyns Bennett (DBen) 38; 19. Page (Page) 36.5; 20. Germantown (Germ) 35; 20. East Ridge (ER) 35; 22. Ravenwood (Rw) 34; 23. Ooltewah (Ool) 31; 24. South-Doyle (SDoyle) 30; 24. Beech (Beech) 30; 24. Franklin Road Academy (FRA) 30; 27. Sullivan East (SullE) 29; 28. Harpeth (Harp) 28.5; 29. Hillsboro (Hb) 27.5; 30. Seymour (Sey) 27; 31. Brighton (Bright) 26.5; 32. Kenwood (Kenw) 25.5; 32. Bolton (Bolt) 25.5; 34. East Literature (ELM) 24; 35. Dickson County (DC) 23; 36. Oakland (Oakl) 22; 36. Maryville (Mary) 22; 38. Hixson (Hix) 21.5; 38. Cumberland County (CumCo) 21.5; 40. McGavock (McGav) 19.5; 40. Greeneville (Gr) 19.5; 42. Kingston (Kston) 19; 42. LaVergne (Lav) 19; 44. Karns (Karns) 18; 45. Chattanooga Central (CCent) 16; 46. Clarksville Northeast (NE) 14; 47. William Blount (WB) 13; 47. Bartlett (Bart) 13; 47. Bearden (Beard) 13; 50. Knoxville Halls (KHalls) 12.5; 51. Sevier County (SevCo) 12; 51. Red Bank (RB) 12; 53. Glencliff (Glen) 11; 54. Stratford (Strat) 10; 54. Hunters Lane (HL) 10; 54. Centennial (Cen) 10; 57. Cookeville (Cville) 9; 57. Tullahoma (Tull) 9; 59. Marion County (MarCo) 7.5; 60. Morristown East (ME) 7; 60. Mt. Juliet (MtJ) 7; 60. Gibbs (Gibbs) 7; 60. MLK (MLK) 7; 64. Boyd-Buchanan (Boyd) 6; 65. Elizabethton (Eliz) 5.5; 66. Cheatham County (CheaCo) 5; 66. Kingsbury (Kbury) 5; 66. David Crockett (DCrock) 5; 69. Fairview (Fview) 4; 69. Hillwood (Hw) 4; 69. Lookout Valley (LV) 4; 69. Wilson Central (Wilson) 4; 73. Tennessee High (TN) 3; 74. Chattanooga Christian (ChatCh) 2; 74. Greenback (Gback) 2; 74. White House (WH) 2; 77. Daniel Boone (DBoone) 1; 77. Montgomery Central (MonCen) 1; 79. Antioch (Ant) 0; 79. Creek Wood (CW) 0; 79. David Lipscomb (DL) 0; 79. Friendship Christian (FC) 0; 79. Forrest (Forr) 0; 79. Knoxville Fulton (Fult) 0; 79. Grace Christian (GraceC) 0; 79. Heritage (Her) 0; 79. Howard (How) 0; 79. Jefferson County (JeffCo) 0; 79. Lebanon (Leb) 0; 79. Morristown West (MW) 0; 79. McMinn Central (McMCen) 0; 79. McMinn County (McMCo) 0; 79. Millington (Mill) 0; 79. Nashville Christian (NCS) 0; 79. Rhea County (Rhea) 0; 79. Riverdale (Riv) 0; 79. Shelbyville (Shelb) 0; 79. Springfield (Sp) 0; 79. Whites Creek (WC) 0; 79. West Greene (WG) 0; 79. Warren County (WarCo) 0.

A little more number crunching of the new regions results in last years State tournament:

Regions by their top FOUR teams’ 2005 State results:

Region - Points

10 - 42

6 - 48

4 - 46+Notre Dame

9 - 76

2 - 77

1 - 82

3 - 89

8 - 140

7 - 181

5 - 185

Regions by their top THREE teams’ 2005 State results:

Region - Points

10 - 27

6 - 29

4 - 23+Notre Dame

1 - 42

9 - 44

3 - 44

2 - 47

8 - 80

5 - 106

7 - 127

And yes, I realize the region 3 people will not like the way I added Notre Dame, sorry.