BigDog7

Someone asked how many finals for CBHS. This is the fifth in a row and six out of the last seven. Of those six, they have won one. As a die-hard Brothers fan, I'm pulling hard for them to go all the way this year. Of the five final losses, two have been to Father Ryan, so don't look for them to be intimidated. Congrats to both teams for getting there, but Go Brothers!!

In the Battle for LeBonheur charity games in Memphis on Tuesday night:

Collierville and MUS tied 1-1 in crazy wind conditions. Nightcap was CBHS over White Station 2-0 in the crazy rain that followed the wind. In the end, the winners were once again the kids at LeBonheur Children's Hospital and the John Talley Neurological Cancer Research Fund. Thanks to all four of those teams and the players and coaches for being a part of something much bigger and more important than soccer! /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

MUS-2, Maryville 1

CBHS-5, Maryville 0

 

 

CBHS is in another league. I would not be surprised if they do not lose a game this year. They really are one of the best HS teams I have ever seen. We really hope that our guys bounce back and take this as a learning experience, and we also hope that our guys know that sometimes you have to be willing to lose in order to win later on. Also, I was very impressed with the way Coach Lima and his boys carry themselves. They were classy, did not rub salt in the wounds, and were full of compliments and humility. Best of luck to them this year!

Ned,

I was also at the game, although my last one graduated from CBHS last year. I want to pass along an observation on Maryville's coach. Late in the game, a Maryville player bumped a CBHS player on the far side near the sideline. It was nothing major, no dirty play, but the CBHS player ended up down on the track surface. I could hear M'ville's coach admonishing his player that there was no reason for anybody to get hurt and to knock it off, in so many words. That was a class act! I don't know your coach's name, but I really appreciated his sportsmanship and concern for the players early in the season. Best of luck this year! /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

CBHS 2 Hendersonville 0

I just noticed on CBHS website that CBHS and Hendersonville play on 3/20 at CBHS. Should be a great match and provide some interesting early season results.

BD7-

 

Great post, and i agree with just about everything that you said--especially the main theme that suggests that winning can be defined in numerous ways. Two things worth noting:

 

1.) I'm really not that frustrated--just a realist. I hope I didn't sound like I was boo-hooing. (Our team has been on the winning side way more than the losing side).

2.) No one ever metophorically urinated on our field. It was quite literal and quite repugnant.

 

-dins

Never viewed it as boo-hooing, not at all. Just wanted to let good coaches know they do make a difference, and it is appreciated by good parents.

I'd make a side bet that the "urinators", if not already, will be working for your kids someday!

I would also agree with frog and say that every state champion has had some type of luck in the playoffs to give them the win.. You see it in every sport.

Amen to that!! Been on both sides of the same statement . . .

G, your list gives the average Joe hope, but I disagree with it. I have watched both Farragut and Bearden kick the tar out of East TN with the following characteristics:

 

1.) Speed

2.) Technical ability

3.) More speed

 

I have also coached some great kids (passionate, intense, morally upright) who don't amount to diddily on the pitch. I know I sound entirely cynical, but I hate watching the Rudy's of the world end up with a broken heart because they can't compete with the mythical punk from Athlete's 'R Us High School. Back when I was coaching up North, I used to tell my kids that we could beat the powerhouses in the area with courage, integrity, heart and all the other sappy things that people say helped the 1980 U.S. Hockey team beat the Soviets. Unfortunately, we got the snot beaten out of us while the punks from the other school (this is a true story) urinated on our field on the way out. They eventually went on to win the State Championship. Sure, I agree with you that your above ten qualities are infinitely more important than any sort of soccer skill, but, in reality, Rudy only played a down for Notre Dame, and that kid would have repeatedly tazered himself for the good of his team.

 

No disrespect, G. It just upsets me when the Cobra Kais win championships--not to say that Bearden or Farragut are nearly as awful as Johnny and his disciples.

Dins8,

I think it depends upon your definition of winning. If it's the score of a single game, or championship and in the context of the original question, I think we're all agreed on speed, technical ability, and more speed. I like to think of the definition of winning more along the lines of John Wooden's. He defined it as every player getting the most out of his ability every time down the court. That is a very tall order, but he said if you do that, the W's and L's will take care of themselves. That requires G's 10. I also define the game as not ending at the end of a high school or college career, it's when we all have to make that final accounting.

It sounds like you are a coach, so please know I respect and appreciate the value of your's and G's profession. You are a key figure in the lives of young men when they don't necessarily believe or want to hear from their parents! I encourage you to always tell your kids they can beat the powerhouses, but to also challenge their definition of winning. During my playing days (not in soccer, we didn't even know what that was), we never got out of the county playoffs, and I've been on the wrong end of some major a-whippings. But, I was also involved in a couple of "Miracle" games. They do happen.

I'm quickly approaching 50 and I can say I've had people metaphorically "urinate on my field" many times since high school. However, I can definitely say that based upon God's grace and the lessons I learned playing sports in high school, I've had more than my share of W's. So, this post is to say thanks to guys like you and G and all the other coaches. But, moreover, to help you realize that whether you get your brains beat out or you dust somebody else, y'all are powerful influences on what the score will look like 25 years from now. If it gets frustrating, just review your definition of winning. And, to quote "Coach" Miagi in Daniel's championship match against the Cobra Kai's - "It's okay to lose - it's not okay to be afraid".

Respectfully,

BD7

So it's the beginning of the season and teams are getting their lineups and roster together. We all know of at least one player (either past or present) that was a big locker room distraction. Often times, these are the players that are big parts of your starting 11.

 

Since their are a lot of coaches here, what do you do about these players?

Several years back, I saw an interview with whom I believe is one of the greatest coaches I have ever seen, John Wooden. This was during the time when players and whole teams were threatening to "walk out" and other such nonsense because they didn't like the coach or his style. They asked Coach W about team discipline, etc. and he said "Coaches today have the greatest tool readily available to them to manage their players. It's called the bench. In the end, they all want to play." He then went on to tell the now famous story of Bill Walton showing up with a beard on the first day of practice, knowing there was a strict team rule against facial hair. He told Coach W that based upon his personal beliefs and convictions, he was going to wear the beard. Coach W told him "Bill, I respect a man who stands up for what he believes. We're going to miss you." The next day, Walton shows up clean shaven.

I've never coached at the high school level, but I've "coached" plenty of my own teams in the business world. If you have a problem player, you bring it to their attention, make it clear what the expectations are and that you want them to be a part of the success (an important point). If they don't come around, you terminate them. I've never failed to see the rest of the team come together, pick up the slack, and normally operate much more effectively.

I've watched John Calipari do this with the Memphis Tigers basketball and not only has he reinvigorated a program, but he has made the difference in the lives of a lot of young men.

How good will the teams for Memphis area be this year? For AAA Houston always has a top notch team but i know they lost a really good senior class. Also Christian Brothers? I see both teams reaching state again this year but just wondering if anyone else knows more about these teams

Since my youngest graduated from CBHS last year, I'm not as tied in as the past, but will offer these observations. Houston did lose a very large and talented Senior class. They will be competitive in this area, but not dominant as in the past. I think they will find tough going at the state level. They do have an excellent goalie in Will Powell, though. If he stays focused, he could carry them further than people expect.

CBHS can, once again, go as far as they let themselves go. They have a very large and talented Senior class, followed by a talented Junior class, followed by a talented Sophmore class, etc. They lost a small group of Seniors from last year in what was probably the least talented of classes for CBHS in a while. However, that group of Seniors were the best leaders they have had in a while. Hence, their performance last year. This year, JJ certainly bears the responsibility of being the leader on that team, but there are others that must step us also, i.e. Devin Character. If they do, they will be hard to beat. If not, there are plenty of teams that can knock them off at the state level.

St. Benedict may be the surprise D2 out of Memphis this year.

Now, about settling games with PK's . . . (just kidding, G. That can of worms won't be opened again by me) /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

No its athletic.

 

Tyler is going to Winthrop..D-1

 

Jake is going to a D-3 school.

 

I said Tyler signed not Jake

My bad. I stand corrected. Thanks!

No not North Carolina State Raleigh....

Roanoke College..its a D3 school in Roanoke...

 

That is my typo. SORRYYY

 

And Tyler has some sort of scholarship there because he signed there.

 

Muth, Grossbard, and Chauncey are not playing in college

If it's D3, then probably academic scholarship. They don't give athletic scholarships in that division.

Will is the best goalie in the state and their defense will be held together by john krc and the midfield around tyler doss if he can remain consistent...they will field some great athletes and this is great that theyre already basically being called the third best team in their own district next year...while collierville and white station may have more talent you can guarantee that coach wolff will get more out of his players then the collierville kids or white station kids...Houston will be back at the state tournament next year...CF dont back down from JA...

Not to worry - Dr. J is all show and no go! I've seen him play golf . . . /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

Trying to figure you out rockytopreigns - should be easy given only one or two Big Orange fans in this part of the state!

Will is a very capable goalie and can keep you in games...but I still think they will have trouble if they are able to move on to Murfreesboro. Collierville should be the best team in the Div. coming out of Memphis and White Station has some very good young talent.

 

CBHS should have a great team. JPII will be very good. Anytime you have a player such as Jonah you are dangerous...so Father Ryan will be in the mix....

 

But good try...Cary..LOL

Gotcha' JA!

I would be surprised if Houston returns next year....they lose so much....

On paper, Dr.J, I would have to agree. However, I don't have to look back but to 2007 to see a Baylor team of "no names", as was reported, scrap together and end up beating a loaded CBHS team for the championship. That same CBHS team graduated 11 Seniors and 9 starters, causing some to question their capability in 2008. I think they showed well this year.

Houston does graduate some very talented Seniors, but they will return a very capable Senior goalie in Will Powell and some good athletes looking for their chance. It should be interesting.

back to the discussion of whether pks are the best way to decide a game.... im watching the nhl playoffs and their system seems to be to your liking bigdog.

they simply play consecutive sudden death overtimes and the games not over til someone scores.

to me this seems fair i would only worry about players fitness and health.. and quality of play which would all deteriorate significantly.

And to think I've never taken the time to understand hockey, nor watch it! I still don't understand the significance of that dude throwing an octopus onto the ice. Maybe I'll try that next year if someone goes to PK's! /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

Your final point is well made!

I am a player, and i know for a fact that Father Ryan did not try to "pack it in" so that they could go to pk's...we dreaded pk's, and we tried all we could to capitalize as did CBHS...both teams had a few opportunities in both overtimes to put the game away, but neither could finish...and i just don't really agree with calling pk's "unfair" because can you really say one team is better than the other if you played longer than 110 mins and one team gives up a goal because of fatigue? It's a state tournament game, and unless you are the opposing team down a goal, no team is satisfied with getting a tie until the end of regulation and overtimes. The players play as hard as they can, and I really do not see it as fair to say that a team "packs it in" when they are tired...sure it may seem like it, but I've been there and though players may look sluggish and look like they are "packing it in" they are really dying and doing all that tey can to keep the opposing team from scoring. More often than not that is the case because "packing it in" on purpose puts a GREAT deal of pressure on the defense...also when players have played for 110 minutes in 80 to 85 degree heat, it may seem like the strikers have gone back to "pack it in" but really they do not want to lose and you win as a team and lose as a team...that means it takes 11 to defend and 11 to attack...honestly "packing it in" is not that at all, it is the players doing all they can because they know that they have almost nothing left in the tank and they will not sit back and watch the other team's offense beat their defense. As much as it seems like a team "packs it in", it is usually more that they are the team who was in the worse physical shape...CBHS had us on our heels a lot in overimes, but we had our spurts just as well...what it comes down to is who wants it more, and we did all we could to keep ourselves fom going down a goal because we knew we were all tired and we were doing the best we could to get the ball on the CBHS side of the field...and when we had it down there.....CBHS "packed it in" so that we could not score...it is not a strategy more so as it is a survival instinct...also i don't really know if CBHS ever practiced pk's as a team or at all, but we did because we knew that going down to pk's was a very good possibilty...just as you prepare for the opposing team, you have to prepare for what the game could possibly come down to...no win is ever in the bag

 

on a second note, taking a pk takes a lot out of a player. you choose your best players, and after that...it is all up to those few players to determine the game. once again, this comes down to who wants it more, what team can better handle the pressure, and what team can execute and get the job done. think about walking up to the penalty spot, placing the ball down, looking up and seeing one person standing between you and a goal, and on top of all of this you are being watched...you are being watched by your entire team, the opposing team, your parents, family members, friends, classmates, ppl you don't even know...and at the moment that player steps up to take his pk, he enetrs a world that is solely reality...if i miss it could be my fault we lose. if i miss will everyone hate me? the slightest mistake could cause you to miss one of the biggest shots you will ever take. and if you are a senior, the biggest shaot you will ever take, the last shot you may ever take, and the last time you will ever have to win a championship like that, not to mention the fact that it could be the best opportunity you have ever had to win a championship of that caliber...so you can look at pk's and say it's a crap shoot if you want, but handling that amount of pressure and finishing is a great feat and takes a great deal of skill. oh and i almost forgot...there is also a keeper standing in front of you and the back of the net...so it is also a mind game between those two...who can read the other and who can fool the other.

 

i'm sorry, but it's CBHS fault if they didn't prepare for pk's...they knew it could possibly happen, esp. when they have had it happen before. and if they did prepare, then they did all they could...i'm not saying they didn't have a chance once it got down to that because i played for ryan and we did not want it to go down to pk's...but once it did we knew there was nothing we could do to change it...esp. after an unfortunate own-goal tied that game up and had it never happened we possibly wouldn't have been in that position...so we accepted what it had come down to and decided we wouldn't dwell on the odds, but rather we would do what we could with what had been dealt to us.

 

it was a great game, and there were times when i know both teams wanted to collapse...thus playing on after 110 minutes of play really wouldn't have been fair to either team. both teams played their hearts out and played as as hard as they could...and after being deadlocked for an extra 30 minutes with play getting progessively more sluggish and sporadic, pk's was the best option for either team. it gives both teams a fair chance to put the game away...

Wow - what an excellent and well written insight from a player's perspective! Thank you for taking the time to compose your thoughts and respond so credibly. If I've marginalized Father Ryan's victory in any way, you have my sincere apology. That was never meant to be the case. You are absolutely right - you played the game under the structure established for both teams. It was a great battle and the players on both sides left it all on the field. You have my respect for your efforts, my congratulations on your win, and my best wishes for future success after high school! /thumb[1].gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":thumb:" border="0" alt="thumb[1].gif" />

First off it sounds like someones a little bit of a sore loser.

 

Secondly, when you say people dont play the game to win and just hold out until pks..... that is a strategy and if the team is good enough to pull off that strategy then thats soccer and its a plan well thought out and executed.

 

Thirdly, when u say that that CBHS players were not "ready to just stop".. i was at the game and both teams were equally tired and FRHS seemed to actually be having more oppurtunities on the goal.

 

Finally...Once the teams are in KFTM its a completely fair way to solve the game... the team with the better and luckier goalie.. and the more confident and skilled shooters will win.

The only reason I will even respond to this is the sore loser comment. Hopefully, anything I've posted would be interpreted as being a gracious loser. If you will take the time to go back and read all the posts, you will see the discussion is about an idea, not a specific game. And, it has been an interesting thread.

The remainder of your post is your perspective and, as with everyone's, I respect your right to your views. However, as you grow older, hopefully you'll realize that personal attacks in a public forum, particularly without any facts, only detract from any credibility you may have or hope to develop.

In a season of great ones, I will go with CBHS v Houston in the Battle For LeBonheur to kick off the season for the following reasons.

3. It renewed a great rivalry.

2. There were 1,200 people at the game, complete with band and cheerleaders.

1. It did something great for the kids at LeBonheur Children's Hospital and, when you think about it, puts all this stuff about winning soccer games in the proper perspective.

Good input from all perspectives. My youngest has just graduated, so I no longer have a dog in the fight. But, I do enjoy a good debate! Best wishes for a good Summer for all. Go Cardinals . . .

I'm behind coaches arm wrestling.

Are you kidding me?? CAK would never lose. Have you seen G's forearms? The guy's a monster! /roflol.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":roflol:" border="0" alt="roflol.gif" />

The main part you look at is the amount of time that is being played. You obviously can't take a player off each min or keep playing overtime mainly because you are constantly moving and they believe that Say you make it to the 150th min of overtime and a kid passes out from fatigue that is putting the players at somewhat of a health risk and with the heat as it was for the D2 AA final it was humid and hot and you can tell that most players were ready to just stop and that was with a 50 min delay.

I think they should do the kicks like FIFA where the players that were on the field are the ones that take the kicks. So you don't have fresh legs kicking as apposed everyone is tired to an extent to when they take the kicks. I think players like taking Pks because that is part of the game and it's always been part of the game.

Tactically if you are a coach and realize,"well we don't have the offense to beat this team" then the best option would be to play say a 5-4-1 or a 4-5-1 to play defensively minded or "play for pks". If you have a keeper like the Webb keeper, wouldn't you use that to your advantage because soccer is about strategy and not about the players that play. If the eleven that are on the field believe in the system and understand that system, what does it matter if they the better team or the worse team but if they know if they just hold out for 110 mins, they have a great shot at winning if it goes to pks.

You've made my point. They are not playing the game to win. They are playing to hold out for 110 minutes. There is a difference. I would venture that you would not have as many 110 minute games if KFTM were not an option. The incentive would be to play and win by scoring goals - as it should be. I believe more games would be settled earlier, not take longer. You would only see packing it in when a team was ahead, and as I've said above, that is a very legitimate use of the strategy.

I would also argue that the CBHS players were not "ready to just stop". They had FR on the ropes and would have welcomed the opportunity to continue playing.

I do agree that PK's are an integral part of the game. They are the reward/penalty for a penal foul in the box, and take place during the normal course of play. They are very exciting and have an important place in the game. They are also exciting during KFTM to settle championships, but that still doesn't make them the best way to determine a championship team. I believe most players, if asked not in the heat of a tournament, would prefer not to settle the game with KFTM.

wow.... accurate? i think not

Whoa, ease up a little. While I don't care about the polls either, the guy's just giving some props!

Interesting topic for conversation, but there are plenty of pitfalls no matter what you choose.

 

I think NFHS rules are reasonable. Two tens no matter what, then two fives golden goal then pks. The game has to end at some point and after 110 minutes, most teams are gassed, especially with the intensity of the state tournament.

 

Are pks better than fatigued players running (walking) around till someone gives up a goal? That's up for debate.

 

I also think the better team can find a way to score even if the opponent "packs it in."

 

Most coaches do place some emphasis on pks, realizing that a critical game may come down to just that scenario. While there is some luck with pks, I think they even out in the long run. CBHS may have lost four straight state finals, but I recall they also won four straight state finals in the past.

 

I think this debate will continue for a while.

Good points, no doubt.

Across championship teams in all sports, I believe one would find both fitness and bench strength. That is part of what makes them good. A lot of time, the bench ends up being a key part of the victory. It's the totality of the team. It brings strategic substitution into the strategy of the game. I prefer to think of it as someone scoring a goal instead of giving up a goal, but regardless, even if it is walking, the game is decided by the players playing the game.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you on the better team finding a way to score even if the opponent "packs it in". However, having watched it now on numerous occassions, I will say it is very, very tough! The D2 A final between St. George's and Webb was a perfect example. In what was arguably the biggest mismatch in a state final, St. George's was less than 3 minutes from going to PK's against a team it completely dominated and was clearly superior to. The statistics will validate that statement. Webb had everybody back and completely relied on a hot keeper (and boy, was he hot!! Hats off to that kid!). Going to PK's would have dramatically increased Webb's odds, yet it would have had very little to do with the team. St. George's was firing at will. I'm not knocking Webb. They are to be congratulated for their run, and I wish them well in the future. I don't know if their keeper is always that good, but he was special in that game!

Just for clarification, I wish that CBHS had won four in a row. Actually, it was two runs of three. Seven of the last eight years have been in the finals, with three wins and four seconds.

I do agree I think this debate will continue for a long while, but I remain in the corner of playing it out on the field.

First, congratulations to Father Ryan on winning the D2 AA this year. Well done.

Second, this is not about the strategy of putting ten or eleven men behind the ball (packing it in), although it will seem that way.

Third, this is not sour grapes even though CBHS finished second for the fourth year in a row. Having watched a combination of my two sons playing there over the last six years, I believe year in and year out it is one of the top, if not the top, program in the state.

Fourth, my wife is tired of hearing me talk about this and finally told me to go tell someone who cares!

Keeping is short, I believe KFTM should be removed as a way of settling playoff games. It encourages teams to pack it in and play for a tie, knowing the odds change dramatically if you can get to that point. I believe packing it in is a very good and legitimate strategy for protecting a lead. Last year's final saw Baylor go up 1-0 on CBHS and they protected the lead. An excellent strategy used in the right situation and they won in regulation - as it should be.

In the six years I've watched state, CBHS has been eliminated three of those years in PK's. In each case, the opposition ended up, some in the beginning, packing it in and playing for a tie because they were tired or refused to engage against a better team. That is within the rules, so no problem. I just believe it does not produce a true champion. CBHS also won a quarterfinal game in PK's one year. In my opinion, that was luck on our part.

To me, packing it in is not the villain, it is KFTM. It rewards the strategy, when the strategy would most likely not be used otherwise. The game is not settled by the team, and it only sets someone - a keeper or a shooter - to be the goat in the loss. To me, it is similar to shooting free throws to decide a basketball game. Speaking of basketball, those of us old enough to remember, the NCAA put in the shot clock for a very similar reason years ago. Teams would go into the four corner stall, and the game became a travesty.

My suggestion, and I saw it used in SuperClubs - once with my son's team and once as a referee. Play the two tens to completion. Still tied? Go to 7v7 golden goal for five minutes. Still tied? Go to 6v6 golden goal. Keep doing that, and a team will win and it will be decided by the players playing the game - not trying to outguess each other at the PK line. BTW, neither of the two games took more than the 7v7 period. It changes the game dramatically.

I plan on suggesting this to the TSSAA, but who knows how that will be taken??

Again, a sincere congrats to Father Ryan this year, BGA in 2006, and University School of Nashville in 2004. Those were all wins of which you should be proud.