blankguy

18 hours ago, DCDadCoachFan said:

There's no pride in the job they are doing just a bee line to the assistant principal to get their check at the last horn.

 

I believe they get paid before the game.

You didn't give two cents (your opinion), you stated that the wrong call was made after it was explained. You obviously have a problem just saying that you were wrong and leaving it at that. I have no problem with discussion, but will not argue a mute point, so I won't post again on this matter...good luck with your games.

OBVIOUSLY, you didn't read an earlier reply... it's below.

If that is what is written then I guess you're right.

Understandable. In the normal course of play, not a throw-in, typically a lot of people think you can jump from the front court, catch the ball in mid-air, and then land in the backcourt. This is what I thought was said happened. I didn't realize it was a throw-in situation. People think you have to have all three points (both feet and the ball) to be considered in the front court- this only pertains to dribbling and there are some quirks to that to mr.rules knowledge (jl2014).

If you take my original reply and read a few other replies, I said I did not read the "inbounds pass."

"Since my last post I witnessed an inbounds pass to a player who lept from the frontcourt, caught the ball in midair, and landed in the backcourt."

Obviously, I made a big mistake even trying to give my two cents because you all definitely more enlightened about rules than me. I'll go read the rule book and ref my middle school games. Thanks for the advice!

Exactly my point.You said that I was too quick to criticize officiating, and that I was mistaken about the violation...you then enlightened us that your own knowledge of the rulebook is vague at best. If you are an official (I assume that you are from your post) my hat's off to you for doing a job where the compensation isn't all that great and the criticism greatly outweighs the thank-you's...there aren't many "jobs" that aren't in the same category concerning education and athletics. Coaches, assistants, officials, and even school board members accept lots of responsibility with little reward for their efforts, but they all asked for that responsibility and are accountable for their performance. Like I've said before, I can accept error but not lack of effort.

If you want to get crazy, this is from the NCAA rules book:

9-13 Art. 10. After a jump ball or during a throw-in, the player in his front court, who

makes the initial touch on the ball while both feet are off the playing court, may

be the first to secure control of the ball and land with one or both feet in the back

court. It makes no difference if the first foot down was in the front court or back

court.

I know this isn't college but you may can see where it is different in both NCAA and HS; that is why I thought it was not a violation. Wasn't vague but just "thought" it was the same rule.

Can you???

9.9.1 Situation A:

A1 catches the throw-in pass with one foot on the floor in A's frontcourt and the other foot not touching the floor.  The non-pivot foot then comes down in A's backcourt. Ruling: Violation. Player and team control are established in A's frontcourt when A1 catches the throw-in pass. The violation occurs when A1 subsequently touches the backcourt with the non-pivot foot. (4-12-6; 9-9-3)

 

 

Maybe the rule book is wrong????

I will say it again read the rule book

If that is what is written then I guess you're right.

Your 0-2 Case Book play 9.9.1 Situation A.

Not going to type it out this time maybe you will get in rule book

You're absolutely right and that's why I should have stayed out of it twice. Even though you can land one foot in the front followed by the second in the back court off a throw-in.

Sorry to tell you that is not a backcourt violation. If you are an official and you are going to get on here and talk about rules at least look it up and make sure your right before you make a rule comment.

Case book page 77 Rule 9.9.1 Situation E: A1 inbounds the ball at the division line; A2 jumps from the frontcourt, controls the ball in the air, and while still in the air passes it to A3, who is in the backcourt. Ruling--Backcourt violation. COMMENT: THE THROW-IN EXCEPTION ONLY APPLIES TO THE PLAYER INITIALLY RECEIVING THE THROW-IN PASS (FIRST TOUCH). SINCE THE THROW-IN HAS ENDED, ALL BACKCOURT RULES APPLY. HAD A2 JUST LANDED IN THE BACKCOURT , THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO VIOLATION! (9-9-3)

Relax, I did not read the inbounds part, sorry. That is the only time you can actually land one foot in the front court first then the other in the back and it not be a violation. Easy fellas.

Bad Fans (aka crazy Moms and Dads) are much worse than bad officials, no doubt.

 

BUT that has nothing to do with officials doing their job well. Lets keep the issues separate here.

 

I would be in favor of higher pay for officials, in return for better supervision and reviews of their performance. When teams are buying $200 team shoes and $200 team uniforms, and traveling to Florida for tournaments, surely they can afford an extra $1,000 per season to pay refs $10 more per game.

I'm all for better performance reviews but I think majority of the officials just want to get their schedules and go home. You could probably ask the supervisors and they tell you that they've told them to change, get better..... But honestly, college officials would rather work 1 game with pretty good partners and better money than two games less money and roll of the dice partners. So you could pay them more but it's still two games and roll of the dice partners.

Try and make me "that guy" if you like.I tried to put my post in perspective so that you'd understand my viewpoint, I understand that it's difficult and my only criticism's were favoritism and/or unprofessional behavior. Since my last post I witnessed an inbounds pass to a player who lept from the frontcourt, caught the ball in midair, and landed in the backcourt. One ref' called a backcourt violation, argued with fans first, then the other two officials before they overturned the call. Missing a call is OK (he should have known the rule), but you never argue with fans, nor reveal a disagreement with other officials to the fans. Want to guess how the fans from both teams treated him for the rest of the game?

First off, it is a backcourt violation. The player that jumped from the front court retained the status from where he last left the floor. Therefore, when he caught the ball he was considered in front court status. The official got that play right and the two others it sounds like got it wrong. Just like if your out of bounds on a throw in, jump in the air and catch the ball then land in bounds; you're still considered out of bounds because you never established yourself in bounds.

Now, I have seen several officials and myself included be suspended this year for not enforcing rules as TSSAA wants. There is accountability in this stuff that no body sees. The biggest accountability come to post season. They want to send their best but unfortunately a lot of the better officials are already working some college games and can't work the HS tournaments. Not to say officials don't get put in games that shouldn't be there.

Onto the referee taking over the games, I think fans get to caught up in this because a lot of those same parents that yell are the parents of the kids that act a fool or say some "smart aleck" remark then the game starts to get escalated because other players and more fans feed off of it. The officials start to take over because, if they don't, then the games might get a lot worse than what you're seeing.

On the money aspect, you're just factoring one night of work making 85 dollars. Most of the time I have to leave at 4 to be there by 5 for a 6 start. Leave the gym by 9 to be home by 10. So that's 6 hours of work. We will say 5 because I know some of you will argue the travel time. that's 17 an hour in my book but I can round for you and say 20 and hour is still good money, no doubt. But I had to go to a meeting yesterday for free an hour from my house (6 meetings a year usually last 1.5-2 hours), had to go work scrimmages and play days for free. And had to go to camp for 200.00. Pay TSSAA for dues, local association for dues, NASO dues for insurance, buy the uniform (could be used a couple of seasons). So if I work 20 games that's 1700.00,  which is good don't get me wrong.   So I would say I make a little over 1000 minus gas and "pro-bono" stuff to be able to work games. 20 games is 20 nights away from my family. I know I chose this but at least you get to go to games and watch your family play and support. My family gets to hear how some knowledgeable parent had to be escorted out of the gym because he/she couldn't hold it together to just enjoy a game.

I'm not a parenting expert but I do know that there are bosses that we all work for that are not the brightest crayons in the box but we still have to make due and enjoy the ride. If as parents continue to show kids that it's ok to act the ways we do in the stands against "authority" they will struggle to succeed in life. When the coach learns to stand up and say "we don't act like that" over "well he would never do/say that, you're wrong," "it's a power trip".....

I get that they all are great and I understand that teams have been together all year and aren't doing as well as they thought and parents are frustrated that little Johnny isn't having a breakout year to earn that scout's attention. But I'm telling you if you not sit down and just enjoy the show the show will end a lot sooner than you think.

What if the coach assaulted the official? What about all the other coaches that were ejected and paid the fines based off a miss application of the rules? Pandora's Box for sure!!!!!!

A shot clock has been in place since 1985 in NCAA though. I doubt it's the reason for scoring to go down in the past 3-5 years. A shot clock in high school would force teams to, at a minimum, shoot every 35 seconds. It really would change the pace of most good teams until the 4th quarter, but it would still make scores go up and make the game more pure. This is obviously just my opinion. Every other level has a shot clock above high school. I just think it's time for it to be in high school now. 

First off, i'm all for a shot clock. Second, I wasn't implying that the shot clock is the reason the scoring has went down. I was just saying that don't get hung up on scoring will go up because of a shot clock because you take higher level athletes with a shot clock and scoring has went down (proven statistical data). But if kids continue to foul then the shot clock would be obsolete either way. This year for NCAA/high school is going to be a re-learning/adjusting year to get the game cleaned up to be more of a pure game and not a rugby match.

I agree. That's what I was attempting to say in my post. Central must adjust to the rules changes this year because they have traditionally played a man pressure defense. I also don't agree with it. From what I have observed, it's a ploy to get scores up. In my opinion, a high school shot clock would fix that problem. It would increase the speed of the game, and keep teams from winning state championships by 3 points every year because they held the ball for the last 4 minutes forcing the other team to foul them. That's not basketball.

 

Good argument except in the NCAA men's game (with a shot clock) scoring has went down every year for the past 3-5 years.

The rules in NFHS have not changed, they are just "strongly suggesting" that officials clean the game up since it is being enforced in the college game.

I heard the reason Wade was ejected was because he received his second flag in the game during the end of game debacle.

You want to talk about math, here we go:

High School Basketball: 85.00 for 2 games. 42.50 a game. thats 10.63 a quarter. 1.33 a minute. Divide all that by two teams to control is a whopping 0.67 a minute.

College Basketball: (JUCO) 130.00 for 1 game. 130.00 a game / 65.00 a half / 3.25 a minute / 1.63 per team per minute. Over a dollar more a minute....

Why in the world would anyone want to stay and do high school basketball? Even if you bumped up the pay in high school, YOU STILL HAVE TO REFEREE TWO GAMES and then listen to fans that don't have a clue on what to/not to call in a game. Their minds are trained to follow the ball and react to things like contact or that just plain look funny.

There is accountability in high school refereeing: it's called POST-SEASON. If you are playing on a Tuesday and Friday night, chances are ALL the officials are working. Just like in any job setting, you have your top performers and bottom of the group. Somebody has to be it. If you have 30 machines and have to use three employees on every machine, are you going to put your top 3 on one machine? NO, you are going to spread it out so all machines run optimally for the effeciency of the company.

THINK PEOPLE!!!

I think we are better off having them complain about the officiating on here than actually refereeing out there.

I heard Gary Smith? The infamous ex-BGA coach. Would be an excellent choice.

In the paper even today.

 

"As for the ref in question, these Bears and others like them will always have the “what if†question to haunt them the rest of their lives because of what you thought you heard."

 

http://www.clevelandbanner.com/view/full_story/17882381/article-Where-is-the-justice-?instance=home_sports

Looks like somebody had a lot of time on their hands! It may be even funnier that the one official BC may hate is the one that it working the state tournament this week!So be upset that a team and referee went to the state over you!

The funny part in the video is watching about four "mammas" on the first few rows lose it! This made me laugh!

Indian....

As runnershigh has stated, the official was at least 30 ft away, standing by Bradley Centrals coach. There is no possible way that he Heard anything...if something was even said. The fact that you have something to say about Coach Kent Smiths comments in an article, basically means YOU are questioning the intregrity and behavior of one of the most highly thought of, well respected, honest, fair, and MOST TALENTED, high school basketball coaches you will evert hear of. After his many years of state tourney visits and 2 state runner up titles, a Mr. Basketball winner, and 2 other nominees...and Kent's 400th win with only 130 losses in his career....which made him the "winningest coach in Bradley central men's basketball history"....8 regional titles...and there were 5 or 6 consecutive years that Bradley Cental didn't lose a home game. The players have been Kent's family and he has built relationships over the years and watched the boys grow up to be men. One of those men are now on his coaching staff and the others come to quite a few games per year. So Indian, this dynasty...this reputation...and the tradition of Bradley Central, the coaches, the players, the fans, the parents, the families, the coaches families, all beloved bears...stand by Kent Smiths comments. We all know he wouldn't say anything that would hurt the reputation of the Bears but more importantly, something dis honest or come off as a sore loser, that's not who he is nor is it who he wants those boys who play for him to be. You may question what Smith said but, I would question a "ref" whom no one knows. The "ref" made a huge mistake, end of story. Random official< Kent Smith. Moving on.....

Looks like somebody has a crush!

Also, when should a referee stop refereeing? Aparently at 1.5 seconds left then the officials should stop blowing the whistle. I always thought about 2 minutes to go in the game just have a free for all.

Here is the major problem that spectators, coaches, and players have to understand this year and even the next couple of years. *(Disclaimer- I'm not going to tell you to go become an official or if you don't like it then do something about it)* The problem is that, especially in the the middle Tennessee area, a lot of the veteran officials have either retired, moved on to college, or even went back are only working middle school games. Therefore, you have a lot of new officials that don't have the experience yet to manage consistently varsity level games. They will get there eventually with working more games. However, you also have to remember how many high schools are playing on a Tuesday and Friday night. One week I saw atleast 75 games being played on a Tuesday nigh, that is 225 officials. Coaches only rate 50 officials and those are typically rated at every school. So the chances of getting 3 experienced veterans to work you game on one of those nights is slim to none and therefore you have to have more patience this year and for a few years to come.

5-sport dad, we are paid VERY well actually. 80 for two high school games. So three hours of actual work. So lets break it down for you.... game is at 6:00pm start. We are there at 5:00 for pregame and getting ready to be on the floor at 5:45. So if we have to be there at 5, what time do we have to leave work? Does leaving our real job make us lose money since we left early? Then you get done around 8:45/9:00 depending on the type of game 5sport wants it to be called. So let's just say for better arguement that its 4:30-9. I would say thats about 17 dollars an hour. Extremely good actually for part time. Then lets add in, the 5 meetings that we have to attend, which are on Sunday (missing football games) So I have to take 3 hours out of my Sunday to go to a meeting for free to figure out how to make sure we go from "should never work again to well good thing it wasn't a big game". Then pay each year my local and state dues, which come to about 200. Then to go to camp which is 175. Then the uniforms that we have to wear. Then you have to clean those clothes...... So really in all it evens out there and we don't really make that much money so you can get your monies worth when you come to a game..

So I'm sure at your job you make a whole lot more than 17 an hour. And lets say that you might get yelled at everyday and told that you are the worst employee they have ever seen. At some point, you realize that you are getting the job done and you move on to the next night. Thats where the confidence comes from!!! You know how to get the job done and people don't like it!!!

I just know its easy to be an armchair referee, just like the Minnisota/NO game..... And I'm not going to tell you to take the test blah blah blah.. I just say sit back and enjoy watching your kids play and the fact that they are getting to play!! Enjoy what the game has envolved into! Kinda like country music, nobody really wants to hear the old stuff!!

Well I don't know what to tell some people because they think that if you ban something it will stop all actions of that completely.... Now do you really think that will stop injuries?

Grant it, a player will tackle-some better than others- and my definition is a tackle from any direction that doesn't endanger the safety of the opponent. Being tall I could tackle from behind, kind of the sweeping motion and get all ball first and so on...

Grant it some girls don't know the first thing about slide tackling and to be honest I think it's the coaches' responsibilities to kind of correct that. The coach should be smart enough to realize and say, "Now Jane, You can't slide tackle because you don't know how!" I think it really depends on the player on who you should allow and not allow to slide. But to ban it totally?

IF you are afraid of the girls getting hurt, I'm sure there is a good choir program she could become invovled (not knocking chorus cause I was in it). There referees have been trained on serious foul play and the majority of officials in the state of tennessee referee(d) club soccer.

Slide tackles can boost a team up if done correctly! You have a great defensive play and it just motivates your team! Why take out something that when it happens the intensity of the game just gets better and is just a better game to watch.

I'm sorry about the girl that got injured throughout the year. But the referee's can't train the girls how to tackle.. Coaches don't want referees taking 20 minutes in the game instructing players how to play.. That's why in FIFA coaches are only allowed to give tactical instructions then they must return to the bench.

I'm not going to get on here and tell you to take it easy on the referees or take a class or what not.. Because I probably would be scared to work with some of you guys! (And for some of you that was a joke...)

Grant it some referees probably need to see more plays regarding tackles.. However, should referees get on here and bash parents when they clearly don't know the rules either? Its not just soccer that people don't know but in all sports...

Look at the Titans game on Sunday and how many people got upset when they flagged the guy for the fair catch call? That play never happens and its a random rule put into place.....

Referees are getting better and players are adjusting to it, we have a bunch of "new blood" and they will only get better!

Oh yea!!! Quit blaming the referees for you loss, three years ago! Or when you got beat 4-1. When you blame the referees with a score like that, that makes officials think...... hahahah I love you guys!!!!

WOW, I've been missing out!!!

First off, if you are one of those referees that have worked 6 games a day for free then you sir are a fool! Why not get certified and actually make a little money while working those 10 games? Seems simple to me!

The young lady has a point though, if you are out there officiating a game, no matter the pay rate if any, you are perceived to be getting paid to do a job. If you can't work the 10th game like the 1st game then you should not be volunteering your time. Believe me, I have done my fair share of "volunteering" but it does the "game" an injustice. So if you are a true player, you wouldn't want a referee doing anything halfway if you were playing. Even if it was summerball. Shoot when I played, we were just happy it was summer ball because we got to actually play and play through a lot of things.

Second, Young lady. Summer AAU and high school camps are typically officiated by high school/ college certified referees. There may be some that were certified back in the day and still have the patch on the same shirt. However, the good news to you is that atleast they are certified. /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" /> High school camps are mostly worked by newer referees trying to get better and be seen by coaches. If you have a problem at a site for AAU then your best best is either contacting the site coordinator or contacting AAU directly.

So thats my two cents... Enjoy!

I think it has to do with TSSAA is getting the gate admission because they have to pay for overhead of tourney like banners and balls and trophys and supervisors. Then pay the referees plus hotels, gas, and so on and so forth.

The gate I think is given to the soccer club as a fundraiser.

The penalty kick was called exactly one second before the buzzer sounded, not after.

well referees do get paid to referee 80 minutes, not just 79.59