ColumbiaBlueNScarlet

The public schools for many years competed very well with all the private schools. Not until Brentwood Academy beat Gary Rankin and Riverdale did the TSSAA decide to form D1 & D2. Should the TSSAA have formed two divisions because of one school?

 

Another issue is individual sports like Cross Country, Tennis, Golf, Wrestling, Track & Field, etc... All of these sports should crown only one champion.

 

Let's fix the system in Tennessee where a State Champion is truly a great accomplishment. Due to the way that high school athletics have been "WATERED DOWN" we now have teams & individuals winning state championships that would not have made it out of their regional in past years.

I agree that it is watered down now.

The championship scores from 1996 (the year before DI and DII were implemented) are as follows:

1A DCA 51, St. Benedict 3

2A Knox Webb 27, Goodpasture 20

3A Melrose 32, Tyner 12

4A Pearl-Cohn 18, Knox Halls 14

5A Brentwood Ady 28, Jefferson Co. 7

Brentwood Academy beat Riverdale in 1995. In 1996, 1A and 2A championship games were all private. Five out of 10 (50%) teams were private; three out of five (60%) champions were private. Currently, private schools make up approximately 14% of the high schools in TN (I don't know what it was in 1996, but I would guess that it was similar to what it is now). In 1996, schools making up 14% of the population made up 50% of the teams competing for the state championship and made up 60% of the football state champions. I would assume that other sports had similar percentages.

So yes, public schools competed, but I think it showed that private schools had an advantage.

I agree I think it would be a good game too. The only reason i said it was a fluke was because when has Alcoa turned the Ball over 5 times in a game? and lose giving up only 108 of offense?

Since you are asking "when has" questions...

When has Alcoa lost to a team in their classification?

When has Alcoa not won the state? Was this a fluke?

When has Alcoa lost 5 games in a season? Was this a fluke?

When has Alcoa lost to CAK twice in a season? Was this a fluke?

IMO, it doesn’t make the game a fluke just because Alcoa did some uncharacteristic things.

With my plan Webb would be in AAA. If you offer financial aid you must play in AAA or AAAA.

Ok, I got it. Your plan would make for some interesting match-ups. I think a lot of people would have problems with public closed zoned schools having to compete with private financial aid giving schools.

OOhhh what a surprise that everyone is in for next year!

My comments regarding Wall were an evaluation of what I saw early in the season in 2011. After getting some experience, refining his game, and possibly growing a few inches in the offseason, I'm sure Wall will be ready to lead Alcoa in the 2012 season. He's an underrated runner too. He's not an Oggs, but he is athletic and capable of keeping drives going with his feet.

As long as Rankin is coaching, I don't think Alcoa will throw the ball much. He seems to lean on playing good defense and not making mistakes on offense... turnovers are more likely when you pass. I went to the Fulton-Alcoa game in 2006, and I don't remember Alcoa passing a lot with Cobb either. Did Cobb throw the ball much at Alcoa?

Milan would have been put out in round 2 if playing the east so you can't just put them #2 just cause they made it to cookeville to get thrashed by CAK. Alcoa had 6 TO's in that game against AE and Gave up less than 100 yards of Offense to AE. AE had a good team but i believe that game was a fluke and Alcoa was a better team. They did lose by one to CAK in Round 3

I'm not saying Austin-East would've beat Alcoa a second time (... it would've been a good game to watch), but IMO the win was not a fluke. I think Alcoa had five turnovers, and they were not unforced turnovers. 108 yards of total offense is not a lot, but it is more than 100 yards.

Both teams improved after the initial game, and I would like to have seen a rematch.

Just because a team wins by a large margin in September doesn't mean in November the same will happen. Take Goodpasture/CPA and FCS/TC for example. Goopasture lost by 21 points in at the begginning of the year to CPA and FCS lost to TC by 17 during the season. Playoffs role around and Goodpasture still loses by a 2 point margin and FCS beats TC by 10, thats a 19 and 27 point swing. Tyner was a 5-5 team, but over the course of the last 7 games they went 5-2 losing to a 4a playoff team and a 5a playoff team and then going into Alcoa and losing by only 10 points in the first round. I know you could possibly use the same scenario with A.E. going into CAK and losing by just a TD, but this is just all opinionated and doesn't matter because the true best 2 teams would be CAK at #1 and Milan at #2.

I was just curious about your logic.

A silver ball is nice to have in the trophy case, but it doesn't necessarily mean second best team in the state. It means best team from your side of the bracket. I gold ball definately means best in the state.

Thus...

#1 CAK

#2 it's fun to talk about

Personally, I didn't think he threw it very well, and while I agree that you want to get your playmakers a lot of touches, I felt like they made things easier on the defense with the way they played Oggs. I think everyone would agree that he was not going to sit back there and beat you with his arm, so as a DC if you had the option of choosing one the following two, which would you choose:

 

1. Face Oggs lined up as QB with #29 behind him, Both are athletes and are going to make their fair share of plays, but you have them both in the middle of the field with 8 men in the box, so I like my chances, if I have a disciplined team, of turning those guys inside where we at least have 6 or 7 more guys to help tackle them.

 

2. or you could face #15 lined up in what I call the slot or flanker position, and you know that Alcoa has a QB that can get him the ball either down the field, or bubble screen, where you have one guy or at the most two guys that have to tackle him, and also knowing that they can turn and pitch it to #29 going the opposite way, so you have to cover the width of the field. and there are many other options out of this as well such as reverses.

 

As a DC, I like my chances with option # 1 better, because I know that he can't beat me with his arm. Now, If he could beat you with his arm, then it is a whole different matchup. I don't know that anyone they played this year had anybody that could match speed with #15 or #29 and most of the year they lined up within 4 or 5 yards of each other, and were still only a couple of points away from winning another championship.

I'll defer to you since you apparently saw them a lot more than I did. I will note, however, that 29 lined up wide against CAK on several occasions and had the ball thrown to him. Also, I only saw the backup QB a little this year and I got the impression he didn't throw any better, or certainly not a LOT better, than 15. I know he's got a lot of potential, and I've heard other Alcoa fans sing his praises besides you, but I'm not convinced he was ready to lead the offense against quality competition at nearly the same level as Oggs was this year.

I agree with Warrior2011. The backup QB was not going to "beat you with his arm" either. IMO, Oggs was a very underated passer. When asked to do so, he threw the ball well against Maryville (3 for 3, 36 yards)... he wasn't asked to do it much though. I only saw them play Austin-East and Maryville.

#1 CAK

#2 Alcoa

#3 Tyner

#4 Austin East

#5 Sullivan North

#6 Milan

#7 CPA

#8 Goodpasture

#9 Pearl Cohn

#10 Smith county

 

All 10 of these teams were very good football teams, and all had great seasons.

Just curious... Why did you place Tyner ahead of Austin-East?

Tyner lost to Brainard and Alcoa

Austin-East beat Brainard and Alcoa

If you want to fix the public/private, open zone, magnet, etc... school problem there is an easy solution that would make the TSSAA more money and create more fan support for high school athletics. Abolish the current D1/D2 and go to four classifications for football, basketball, & baseball.

Class A: No private schools, financial aid giving schools, magnet schools or open zoned schools. This division is for the small schools that have less than 400 students.

Class AA: No financial aid giving schools. This division is for all schools between 401 & 800 students that do not give financial aid to their student/athletes.

Class AAA: All schools that have between 801 & 1250 students.

Class AAAA: Any school with 1251+ students.

 

1. Eliminate week zero.

2. No "Dead Period" during the Summer or after the season. This should be a decision made by each individual school system.

3. Teams would be allowed three weeks of organized practice & two practice games before the first game.

4. The first games would be the Friday before Labor Day.

5. Go back to a district schedule where only the top two teams make the playoffs

6. Play the championship game on Thanksgiving weekend.

7. The only multiplier used would have the enrollment doubled for all single sex schools.

8. All teams with 6+ regular season wins that don't make the playoffs would be eligible for a bowl game with the TSSAA receiving 1/3 of the gate receipts.

 

All of these things would make it much more difficult to not only win a state championship but also make the playoffs which in return would create much more community support for each school and help increase gate receipts. Going to the playoffs should be a reward for having a good season but with the current system we have teams in the playoffs that don't have a winning record. It's time to do away with the current system that has so many divisions the talent pool is diluted and winning a state title is close to being a joke.

I'm a little confused...

Webb is private, they are a financial aid giving school, and they have a little less than 500 students... which classification would they fit into?

My suggestion may not be the, be all to end all, but Maryville would probably end up with more competition if some of the better 3,4,&5A teams had to move up after a few years. Never the less, my suggestion seems to make more sense to solve the majority of the problem than a lot of the other suggestions I've seen. And, It is a lot less complicated than most. Nothing is going to completely level the playing field, but my suggestion goes a long way towards doing so.

In football, most schools that win the championship 2 out of 3 years don't win the championship for the next 3 years anyway... mainly just Alcoa and Maryville, and Maryville currently plays in the highest classification in their division.

IMO, making teams change classifications based on season results is not the answer... JMO though.

You communicate your points very well, nice job I've enjoyed bantering with you on a variety of topics here recently. Good luck to your Roadrunners next year, they are lucky to have such a fine representative on these boards.

 

I wish you and those you love a very Merry Christmas.

Thanks for the compliments. I got on CoachT becuase Austin-East didn't have much representation, and I got tired of people saying non-factual things about Austin-East football. A couple of years ago, I got a little carried away with aggressive comments regarding Austin-East talent and tradition. I learned a lot from you and Warrior2011 on how to voice my opinion in a more reserved, less in-your-face fashion. You always speak with humility.

I hope you and yours have a Merry Christmas also!

I don't really have a dog in the fight. If Alcoa fans are happy with him, and they have no reason not to be, with all the state championships he has won, that is all that matters. I will say, anybody that had half of a coaching brain could have won state championships at Alcoa the three years prior to this one...they were so loaded that it would have been hard for anyone to screw that up....I felt like he did a less than stellar job this year, while they were no where near as loaded as prior teams, I felt like they still should have won state, but for some reason he would not pull the kid from A-E from the QB spot and try to make teams cover more than the off tackle play and the sweep, and QB keepers. I have an opinion about Rankin and his personality, but it would not be fair to air it as that it is all it is, an opinion, because I have never sat down with him or been around him that much. All I can say is, like him or not, you can't argue with his record.

Alcoa's offense seemed to be more diverse this year than last year. They've never thrown the ball a lot. The QB runs were an addition to the offense. Misdirection QB run plays forces the defense to play their responsibilities more... you can't just run to where you think the ball is going.

I can't debate the budgetary issues of the public school athletic departments intelligently since I am not privileged to that info, but it stands to reason that there are tax funded athletic budgets provided for each public school. Fees are paid by some players and revenues are generated at the gates, so that money could be directed towards specifics such as equipment and travel. But I don't believe equipment or transportation would be denied if the revenues from players fees or ticket sales didn't cover the expenses. And I am confident that some schools are not able to cover those expenses mentioned merely from the revenues they may generate. Nevertheless, choosing to not use a public service should not exclude you from being able to use that service. If I buy a car and choose to not use the transit system that shouldn't exclude me from deciding one day that I would prefer to ride the bus that day. I simply do not like the idea of segregating the teams based upon whether they attend a tax funded school or one that is paid for privately so long as everyone is playing by the rules.I have NO problem with the multiplier and really don't debate whether the 1.8 is too high or not. At any rate, it makes for a spirited discussion.

Good point. I never looked at it from that perspective. TSSAA has a hard job. For the most part I think they do a pretty good job. The only TSSAA decision that I don't like is the one to make eight classifications... I think that is too many... but that's a different conversation for a different thread.

to suggest it was "God's will" for CAK to prevail is a slap in the face to all the teams CAK beat to win the BCBS state Championship...last time I checked..God didn't take sides in football games...are you suggesting that none of players on the teams that CAK beat went to Church and prayed to God every night?

Like your team, my team is on the list of teams that CAK beat this year. Sounds to me like the poster was just trying to highlight the fact that God is omnipotent, all-powerful, all mighty, etc. Even though we may not understand His plan or how He can be in control if we have free will, it is what it is...

God is in control. It was God's will.

Add a tax credit to all parents paying private school tuition (not all of us are rich believe it or not, at least not by American standards) then I would start thinking that doesn't sound too bad. My problem with all of this segregation is that taxes paid by private school families help fund the cost of running athletic programs at the publics including coaches salaries, equipment, transportation, playing facilities, etc... and we get no direct benefit from it yet we are still being ostracized and told to play amongst ourselves despite complying with the multiplier. I don't mean to make this thing political, but it just seems to be a witch hunt against the privates regardless if they are following the rules or not. For those that don't follow the rules they should be punished, and I believe they are, including the publics that break the rules. I was against going D2 at CAK because I didn't want all the travel and overall I still believe the best leagues are the public leagues. Anyway, I haven't really thought it through thoroughly but I trust that their is an equitable solution (I thought that was the multiplier) without having to segregate our boys into public vs. private.

I’m not sure if Knox County schools pays for equipment and transportation for athletic events. They do pay the coaches’ salaries and maintain facilities, but public school is a public service. When a student attends a private school, that student and his family are making a choice not to use the public service of schooling. On some level, it’s the same as…

Choosing not to use a park,

Choosing not to use the transit system (if you live in the city),

Not needing the services of KFD (if you live in the city),

Etc.

What about families that don’t have any children? They won't receive a direct benefit from public schools.

The multiplier works for me. Maybe it is slightly too high… maybe not. Maybe open zones should have some sort of multiplier… maybe not. I don’t know. IMO, the multiplier seems to equate the advantages of private schools.

You speak from experience, ha, but you are right. I will not divulge too much, but the flat passes are definitely in the playbook. I have studied this offense through my sons days at QB and it truly is amazing. There is an answer for practically every defensive coverage you can use. This sounds arrogant and I certainly don't mean it to be, but CAK themselves are the best defense against this offense. (That and a muddy field where the receiver fall on their cuts.) IF, the line protects, IF the receivers & QB are on the same page, IF the QB makes the throw, IF the receiver doesn't drop it, and IF there are no offensive penalties, then I don't see how to stop it. I've come to the conclusion that a perfect route and perfect pass will beat perfect coverage almost every time. The formations that CAK runs out of does not tip their hand at all, because they run a playbook as thick as a phone book out of basically 3 sets. If Coach Bradley ever decides to turn the QB's loose and allow them to run then that person could be the leading rusher in ET, ha. This years (and next years) CAK offense is like the perfect storm when it comes to passing efficiency. The line is BIG and very well coached on the techniques of pass blocking, the receivers are the best from top to bottom of any I've seen...fast, good verticals, shifty, strong, good hands, good blockers down field, and aggressive yet protective with the ball, and the QB is smart, athletic, accurate and elusive. When you put that all together it is like the perfect storm for passing game efficiency. IF a defense has the athletes to utilize man coverage and has not 1 but 2 very good pass rush ends then that is what will give CAK the most trouble. That is what Alcoa had for the past few years, but not this year. The DB's that lock up in man had better be pretty good size as well because a couple of the CAK receivers will go up and get the ball even with tight coverage. Of course CAK will not always have this complete combination of OL, WR's and QB, but right now they do.

You're making me have flashbacks...

I think Austin-East had enough cover guys this year, but you are right about CAK WRs going up to catch the ball. Several times we had really good coverage, and the WR (seemed like it was Davis Howell every time) went up to get it and the defender didn't jump at all. It's hard to prepare for because you can't get that kind of a look in practice, and Austin-East DBs were not accustomed to playing passing teams. This year Austin-East will be rebuilding their secondary. I'm going to miss watching four year starter David Rucker playing about every secondary position. They still have some capable guys that saw a lot of playing time this year, but they have to become more consistent.

CAK seems to throw more flat routes and more passes to the backs when they know that you are playing man coverage. I agree with you about CAK's defense being built to stop CAK's offense. I figured that out after I saw CAK play in person.

They are definitely the favorites, that's for sure. You don't stop them with cover guys, you stop them with a sound Cover 2 defense with smart safeties. You also have to figure out some way to make High throw before he wants to. Tough to do with their line - need lots of scheming and stunts.

They will eat up a cover 2, especially if that's all you play. CAK doesn't throw a lot of balls to the flats. They throw a lot of multi-level crossing routes in the middle of the field. Even if you are in a zone, you have to be able to match up with the crossing routes to stop them. Coverage wise, I think you have to disguise and play a lot of different coverages. Front wise I agree with you... scheming and stunting is important... I think you have to send between 5 to 7 guys every play.

I suggest maybe a different approach to even the playing field. Don't worry so much about open zoning, tuition etc. If a school wins a state championship in any sport say, 2 out of 3 years. That school has proven they are ahead of the other programs in the state in that classification for whatever reason. The next 3 years they step up a division in that sport and play there for the next 3 years. For example, if you win the 2A state football championship 2 out of the next 3 years, then you move up to 3A in playoffs for the next 3 years. I would think this would make the games more meaningful and competitive for even the school which has to move up. After you win something several years in a row, winning the gold ball don't really mean as much. Sort of like a middle weight boxer, after he has beaten all his main competition in his weight class, a lot of the time they move up in weight class to take on more difficult and challenging competition. The TSSAA already reviews the classifications every couple years anyway, just include this in the classification consideration.

So I guess Maryville is going to have to start playing in the college DIII playoffs?

I agree that they aren't many who could do it, but it can be done. Every year the experts say a team in the NCAA (Oregon, etc.)has an unstoppable offense, then a good SEC defense and special teams shut them down.

I realize HS is different, but there were a LOT of passes CAK completed against Milan that were just poorly defended. I will admit CAK's OL keeping pressure off of High, and his pocket awareness make their pass game very tough to defend. To beat them next year, a combination of a good running offense that shortens the game, avoiding turnover's and big penalties, a couple of INT's, and making a couple of special teams play,and who knows?

CAK's special teams do a good job of not making mistakes. I didn't see the championship game, but I heard that the WRs bailed High out a couple of times. Like I said before, there are not many teams build to stop CAK's offense. You almost need three really good cover guys that can cover WRs and a LB that can cover a RB out of the backfield. Most high school teams in TN, especially in 3A, do not have that many capable athletes in their secondary.

I didn't say it's impossible, and I haven't conceded that CAK will win the championship in 2012. It will be a very tough task to beat them though.

We should have met at the AE/CAK game this year. I respect your posts. Seems like we see some things very similarly. Maybe we will get that chance relatively soon I'll buy you a burger and some nanner puddn if we are at CAK and you can get me some of those famous wings if we are at AE

Sounds like a plan.

Alcoa's next season Offense runs over CAK's defense like a run-a-way tornado!

The ability to score on CAK’s defense, and having a kicker for the end of the game could be the recipe for beating CAK in a shootout next season. I don’t think there are many teams that are built to be able to stop their offense regardless of defensive scheme.

When a kid puts up the numbers that C.High has, then the football world has to take notice. I know he wants to play college football because he has said so publicly. He will get that opportunity no doubt, but at what level is to be determined. I'm not his advisor, but if I were, I would tell him to fully embrace the high school experience, enjoy all his teammates and the state title and any and all future high school success, and don't let the issue of college football consume him. Its fun for us to speculate, but he should just enjoy the ride. College football is great but nothing compares to the memories you make with your best friends on Friday nights in high school

Great post! I agree with ever point. Control what you can control, and don't worry about the other stuff.

I appreciate your reasonable discussion, and you make good points; however, keep in mind, the smaller the school, the larger % of students have to play football or you won't field a team. For example, CPA had 12 seniors this year on the FB team out of about 45 male seniors. if CPA doesn't have a high %, they don't have enough players to play. Maplewood, on the other hand, has their pick of the best 50-60 players from over 500 male students, so naturally they have a smaller %. If they had 30%, they would have 150 players and couldn't dress them out. Smith Co. has about 340 males students and at least 80 players (about 25%) and they have at least 10 coaches. That doesn't bother me. I think it is good for the kids.

As far as the parent coaches, I do not know the financial arrangement but I'm sure they are all different, and i also know the school has to answer to the church board financially, who would stop any unjustified expenditures. If a parent is a coach, is working hard, and doing a good job, they deserve to be paid like anyone else. i know for a fact some of them coach for free. For a few years, Mark Miller of Sawyer brown coached the middle school team his son was on for free. Again, I cannot testify to perfection in intent or action, but i can state one thing for sure: the potential for problems is not exclusive to the privates.

Good discussion.

It is true that the percentage of football players to students can be high for public schools also. My point is that if a private and a public each have 300 male students to choose from, then the private has the advantage due to not being restricted by a zone. Name a public school that can compete with a private school from year to year when their enrollments are similar. There are not many… if any at all.

IMO, the potential for problems when it comes to coaches being paid is exclusive to the privates. Booster clubs can pay coaches additional money on top of their stipend/salary, but the difference in public and private is that a student doesn’t have to pay tuition to go to public school; instead, the student has to get a transfer approved if he goes out of his zone. With privates, a coach can agree to pay a father and “put him on staff†to offset the cost of the student’s tuition. Again, I’m not blaming anybody… just discussing how schools can get around the rules. It’s good that CPA has some accountability with the church board.

First, I have not posted about CPA's disadvantages. i have refuted those who criticized the system even though the multipier is in force which is designed to offset some advantages. I accept the system, but there are those who refuse to believe privates play fair regardless of the system or the truth.

Second, my previous points were that attracting students, athletes or not, is essential to a private school to survive. Only about 30% of CPA HS male students play football or basketball, so obviously athletic ability is not the key to admission, plus probably 80% plus of football and basketball players started at CPA before they became good athletes. Another point was that any advantage they have has been handled with the multiplier. Another point was that privates lose students to privates just like publics do.

Lastly, i did not respond to the dad coaching issue because i do not know. However, this happens in publics as well. Dads who are good coaches want their kids in good programs. Whether they are paid or not, if they contribute to the quality of the school what is wrong with that?

Just my opinion, but I would guess that 30% would be a high percentage if you ranked all high schools in TN. Also, I never said that athletics is a key to admission at CPA or anywhere. It's good that 80+% came up in the CPA program. Continuity with players and coaching staffs are things that help an athletic program.

There's nothing wrong with a non-faculty coach that has a son on the team, but there is a difference between public and private. In Knoxville, Knox County Schools pay non-faculty coaching stipends. I've been told that it's not very much. Private schools have the ability to pay what ever they want to pay. They can even pay an amount that is similar to the amount of tuition required for a student. I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I'm just saying that is a way for a student to receive a scholarship without receiving a scholarship.

I watched the game and this kid absolutely amazed me! He has every skill the tradition QB has and still has another year!.. Wow! Yes he does have the size to play in the SEC, maybe not UT but the SEC! Height don't really matter if you have a true QB instinct! Drew Brees listed at 6'0" more like 5'10"!

 

This kid will be just fine!!

Drew Brees, Doug Flutie, Mike Vick... yes they are all no taller than 6'0" and are or were great NFL QBs.

but...

How many SEC QBs (past or present) can you name that are less than 6'0"?

People keep mentioning Drew Brees. Brees was the Texas 5A Offensive Player of the Year. Competition in 5A in Texas is a little different than 3A in Tennessee. I'm not saying that High is not capable. I'm just saying that these are things that are considered by recruiters. As good as Robinette is, he still didn't get a lot of offers (as of eary Summer 2011) from SEC schools.