Robyn

Every band director has his/her own idea of etiquette at a game. Some alternate songs with the other band, some ignore the other band completely and play whenever they'd like, still others like to compete back and forth across the field during the game to try and one-up each other. It's all in good fun. The standing rule of thumb is that a band should limit it's playing to when it's own team is on offense or when the ball is not in play. There are actually rules in the TSSAA handbook regarding "organized noisemakers" that allow an opposing coach to ask the ref to silence a band during the game. It is at the refs discretion after a warning to decide whether to assess a penalty for further playing. The only time a team will be penalized because of the band is if the band is playing during the snap of the opponents offensive possession. Regarding the initial post, if Smyrna band was that distracting, the Lavergne coaches simply needed to ask the refs to quiet the band. If the band refused to stop, the refs could assess penalty yards.

I'm of mixed feelings about this. I personally feel like the team should get over themselves.... if the band is too much of a distraction, maybe the team is not good enough to begin with. I do understand the rules, however. I give the band credit for being a force in the game, and if the ref or opposing coach don't say anything, play on!

Interesting question, montague1! I'm sure if it were easy, every band in the country would be great. As with trying to turn around a football program, it will take years of dedication by both director and students. It will also take a focused, driven, goal-oriented and highly analytical director to effect this change. Just as it probably took years for the band's slow decline, it'll take time to build it back up.

I'm not familiar with the Lexington program, so I'll speak more generally.... Most good school bands have good middle school bands. A middle school director who is a solid recruiter, teaches sound fundamental playing, and promotes high school band is the key to starting a re-building process. As with a football team, having quality players from the bottom up helps the strength of a consistently strong program. Every band director toes a fine line between "content" and "entertainment". There's an ongoing debate in the band world (and on football message boards!) about what music a band should play. That debate is largely irrelevant in this topic except to say that the band should play music that is exciting and entertaining to the musicians. Doing so will help retain good players and recruit younger players to band in the first place.

A large part of recruitment is perception. Everyone wants to be a part of a winning tradition. This is true of football or band. Once a band has sunk below the "poverty line", it's tough to bring it back. Some ideas might be to emphasize some points of strength in the program. If the band is small, but has a fun or exciting drumline, the director should make that drumline a point of emphasis. As that portion of the band gets stronger, the director can begin to use that popularity as an opportunity to recruit more kids to the band. Expanding the color guard or adding a dance team are other ways of improving the size/image of a program to help in recruiting. Another way to increase the size of the band is to increase their involvement in pep-rallies and other activities. If the band is a integral part of many school functions, more people will want to be a part of it and therefore it will grow as an ensemble.

I've seen many small bands who play with excitement and energy to a very enthusiastic crowd. I've also seen many young and enthusiastic bands entertain at half-time. Every band has it's own formula. One thing that seems to be consistent in good bands, though, is recruitment and retention.

It's too bad that a thread on the "BAND" forum about which bands folks like to see has to be hijacked by folks who seemed threatened by the marching band. What part of this thread was about football? What part of this question was "are football players tougher than band members"? What part of the initial topic was about "is band a sport"? It would be great fun to solve the "Which is tougher?" question once and for all. I say give all the band members pads and helmets for two weeks of football practice and give the football players marching uniforms and instruments for two weeks of band practice. At the end of two weeks, have the band members play a football game, and have the football players play a half-time show. A panel of impartial judges can be selected to see which group was able to do the other group's activity better. A winner will be declared! In the meantime, I'd like the rights to the video of the football players playing the halftime show, as I'd like to market it and become a youTube millionaire!

If you guys were paying attention to the game and not "looking up there" at the band, you guys might start making the playoffs

Interesting comments from a poster named after a school with one of the best bands in the Chattanooga area. In fact, seems like the Cleveland band usually wins more contests than the Cleveland football team each year....

My sister and I both went to Dobyns-Bennett and were in the band program. The size of the band has nothing to do with the quality of performance and sound of this great band. The music is extremely hard as is the marching. I went to london with the band as we were invited to attend the millenium day parade. I also went the peach bowl, orange bowl, and sugar bowl. Every one of the bands afore mentioned trys extremely hard. But it is my opinion that D-B is just the better band in Tennessee. Also to help with the size of D-B's band they split up the band into two. One to play for the crowds at the football games. And one for the competitions. Imagine how hard it is for the students that march both.

I've got to agree that the Dobyns-Bennett Band program is in a class of it's own. It's amazing what that program is able to accomplish.

The reason I started this post was to enable me to better educate the fans at our ballgames. This was addressed in a booster club meeting in the past with the coach who said he believes it is no longer a rule. Plus, he added that it should be a nonfactor in the game, which I agree with. But since, we have fans who still want to complain about this situation. Our PA announcer has even asked the visiting band not to play while the ball is in play, stating that it is a TSSAA rule. I was just trying to find out if it is infact still a rule and the penalty so we could be better informed. Thank you.

A good idea. It is telling that a board full of high school football "experts" -- certainly rabid fans -- doesn't know the answer. Could be that's why there's so much confusion.

If you do find the answer elsewhere, please post it!

58Indians22:

 

mg answered your query using this rule reference as the way it is done during the game. I want to piggy-back on his comments with an actual game time occurrence. I am a Whitehaven fan, for those who don't know, Whitehaven is an 8-5A school in Memphis. We have a very large and loud "show band" that is loaded with talented musicians. Just think TSU or JSU type band. Anyway ... during a big game a few years ago, our band director had the band to play during the other team’s possessions during a crucial period in the game ... late 3rd quarter I think. The officials soon informed the head coach to do whatever he could to stop it, or the team would get penalized. By the time the word got to the band director ... the team got hit with a yellow hankie. Now ... there was bedlam in the home field stadium with chanting of "cheaters ... cheaters ... cheaters" ... but the field officials got their point across ... because the coaches jumped up and down and made sure the band DID NOT PLAY during the other teams possession. The average fan in the stands does not know that this rule exists ... nor does your average coach. Our coach didn't argue the point when his defense was tagged with a 15 yard penalty ... he adjusted to the man wearing the white cap in this instance. So ... tell your coach to get the attention of the man with the white cap and whisper in his ear that the opposing team's band can't do that, and let the officiating crew determine if the other team is gaining an unfair advantage.

 

I want to comment on the unsportsmanlike comments made earlier. Personally, I don't think it's unsportsmanlike at all. I think it comes with the game. Some schools do it, some don't. Most only play during breaks in play, after their team scores or after a turnover by the other team. That's why it's called HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE. It comes with the Friday night lights. That's part of the package. I use to love going into another teams house, with their band playing trying to disrupt our focus ... and we shut them up with our play. I bet my bottom dollar ... most young men today feel the same way I did when I played. I use to welcome the other teams band playing ... it was loud, you couldn't hear the QB sometimes ... it was great working through that type of adversity with my team mates. Our team did it and other teams did it to us ... that's what made playing high school football so GREAT! Of course, there are some who are reading this who don't agree. You were reared under a different way of thinking. I can respect that, but it doesn't make your way of looking at it any more right then the way I and others who think like me view it. It is all in how you were schooled and taught to play the game. If I am in a game, and the other team's coach complains about our band ... I'm cool if the ref enforces the rule and makes our band stop playing when the other team has the ball ... I think it's totally lame and that it stinks ... but I can roll with it. I on the other hand welcome the other teams band playing when I'm (my team) is on offense ... I think it makes for a better experience. When the game is over ... we walk off the field and shake hands, load the bus and go home ... win, lose, or draw ... I wouldn't change it for the world! In closing ... I think its part of the atmosphere ... its part of the Friday night experience. Your team is trying to score in the other teams backyard ... their band is trying to disrupt your teams focus ... and the young men on the field have to really concentrate and focus on the matter at hand with making an audible almost impossible. Man! Those were the days. I love it. Some of you hate it. We can agree to disagree on this one. Its all a matter of perspective and preference. Either you were reared to think it's part of the game or you were reared to think it's unsportsmanlike. Either way ... you have a way to deal with it one way or the other.

 

I said that to say this ... If you are a coach on the opposing team, and you think that the band playing during your teams possesion is unsportsmanlike. You are probably going to think bad about the other team's coach and consider him some type of jerk. In most instances ... he was reared different then you and it's just a part of the game to him. He's no more of a jerk then you are. How you handle this situation is up to you ... you can think ill of the guy and make all manner of degrading comments about him to your staff and to others around you, or you can handle it in a different fashion. That's just my opinion, take it for what its worth.

I really like this post. Excellent work!

GREAT POST!!!!!!!

"wish the band wouldn't play during offensive drives" -- TSSAA rules (and those in most states) explicitly say that is the only time the band is ALLOWED to play. Bands (rather the team of the offending band) are given penalties if the band plays during the opponent's offensive drives. For the rule to be enforced, the opposing coach simply has to ask the ref to enforce it. When this request is made, the ref is usually more than happy to oblige, as is the offending band director.

 

There's a thread on this very topic on this board. Where can you find this rule? I was in band and our director would say this, plus its good sportsmanshipnot to play while the other team is on offence.

Can't find it online, but I do know that I saw it in writing a few years ago. My school's AD showed a list of rules to all coaches, sponsors, and directors prior to each football season. Have seen officials issue warnings, though never actually saw a penalty enforced.

Sorry I can't be more help.

No argument here about it being bad sportsmanship or the fact that the offensive players should be focused and play through it. But the question still is...is it still a rule or not? Our coach thinks the TSSAA removed the rule, but isn't sure. How can I find out?

 

If this is still the rule, can and should TSSAA officials direst the umpires to call the penalty? Do they have any authority over this?

What was just described is indeed poor sportsmanship. The offended coach simply has to ask the refs to enforce the rule. Though I can't seem to find it online, I know it is there. As with anything, each reffing crew is allowed certain leeway in determining what is acceptable.

 

I'm sure there may be communities that pack band competitons like football games, but I havent seen one around here.

 

Not sure where "around here" is. Have you been to any of the Saturday competitions? I have, and the crowds are often the same size as the football crowds. Band contests, like football games, run from very crowded to very poorly attended, based on the size or prestige of the competition.

As to affecting the outcome of the game due to weather....... how often does this occurence really come up? Usually, if it's storming, that band has already left. Woodwinds shouldn't play in the rain, and brass is just plain dangerous in lightning.

It's interesting to see all of the back and forth between fans of bands and those who prefer the band not be there. I would guess that most of the differences would depend on what type of band each poster has experienced. I'm constantly amazed, though, at the lack of information, and even the misinformation put out on this board about bands. Let me set some of these issues straight:

"those bands could sustain themselevs without the football team, highschool bands cannot" -- The single largest expense of a high school band is attending football games. Between uniforms, marching equipment, many bands having to provide their own busses, etc. The band would save quite a bit of money by not attending. In fact, many school's football teams rely on the gate and concession revenue that their larger bands provide. Ask the coaches why they tolerate those bands..... they know.

"bands that don't go to away games" -- Many bands, particularly in the state of Tennessee, have to pay for their own transportation. Football teams, on the other hand, are almost always provided busses by the school for which they play. The further the trip, the more expensive the bus. The bigger the band, the more busses necessary. Sometimes, it just isn't practical to take the band to the more distant away games when the result of the game is a foregone conclusion. I am a football fan AND a band fan -- wish the band could go to every game. It's not usually a lack of school spirit, though, but a budget constraint.

"wish the band wouldn't play during offensive drives" -- TSSAA rules (and those in most states) explicitly say that is the only time the band is ALLOWED to play. Bands (rather the team of the offending band) are given penalties if the band plays during the opponent's offensive drives. For the rule to be enforced, the opposing coach simply has to ask the ref to enforce it. When this request is made, the ref is usually more than happy to oblige, as is the offending band director.

"band and their parents take up too much room in the stands" -- Gate and concessions....... I don't know a band out there that receives a percentage of the gate. Those band parents have paid the football team for the right to support their child. The band doesn't pay gate, but those kids can EAT! And they do. Schools with bigger band programs (and band parent attendance) can thank the band for the extra $1000s in the football budget.

"band takes off after halftime" -- The football team takes their break during the halftime performance. The band, traditionally, takes their break during third quarter. Seems fair. Gives the band time to support the football team by spending their money at concessions.

"football has a special program during halftime, band plays too long" -- The band, as has been mentioned before, is required by most schools to be at the game. Given that, it seems that half-time should be the opportunity for the band to perform. Many schools coaches understand this, and do their "special presentations" as pre-game or post-game activities. I think most coaches prefer NOT to have half-time activities, as they prefer to use half-time to prepare themselves and the team for the second half. Band directors have been more than willing to entertain the crowd during this time so that the players and coaches can take care of the business of getting ready for another half of football.

I've been fortunate to be a part of programs where the team and the band get along. If the coach wants certain things done a certain way, there's plenty of time during the week to speak with the band director. Throughout my experience, most of the band members and band directors I've known have had great relationships with the football players and coaches. It's simple, really. If everyone understands that the band is there to support the school and that the team AND the band benefit from supporting each other.

That said, let the complaints roll! What's the point of a football message board, anyway, of we can't talk about the band!

Thank you Robyn. I think everyone would like for this to be closer rivalry in the years to come. Just remember though, It wasn't too long ago that Marion owned the Rams every year. But like I say, thank you for the kind comment.

Yup! And it was the attempt to keep up with those mid-90s teams from Marion County that led to the powerhouse '97 RAMS. Better competition in the region will benefit all of the teams. Rather lose a few regular season games and make it to the 'boro because the team has been tested and found their strengths... It'd be good to see MC get back up to (slightly below -- ) where they once were!

Just want to congratulate MC on making it to the second round -- seems like it's been a while. hoping and expecting Tyner to win, but looking for a good game and possibly a closer rivalry in the future!

Bledsoe County has great facilities and a very friendly fan base. The fact that they usually let the opponent win as well is only an added bonus!

I'm a big TYNER fan, and would love to see them win, but it's tough to pick against McCALLIE. Let's hope some of these guys remember how they hung their heads in the second half last season after playing a tough first half. I'd like to see the guys stay in there, if they do then it's anybody's game....

in the past few games me and other people have noticed that when the band stops playing in the third quarter the team stops but when the band starts back in the fourth tyner slowly gets going again. i also noticed that the band doesnt play while the other team has the ball they did it all last year and beleive me it helps the team when the other team cant hear the snap count and start moving backwards. i was told that the new band director thinks its not nice. who cares about nice tell him to grow up and act like a man keep the band playing all night long an the rams will start rollin again like years past. i just dont understand why a great band that gets so many compalments doesnt play all game.

hehehe...

Glad to see people noticing the band! Tynerfan99! pretty much nailed the response. I'm a big band fan and can also say that MOST bands take third quarter off. If you consider the game to be 5 quarters, the team plays 1, 2, 4, & 5 while the band plays 1, 2, 3, & 5. Talk about the entire entertainment package! As for growing up, etc, it is actually against TSSAA regulations to play while the opponent is on offense. The rule is only enforced if the opposing coach makes a complaint. With the first complaint the team gets a warning, with the second it's a penalty.

Above all, though, the bands usually respect the wishes of the coach. If Turner wants quiet, he deserves quiet.

How can you say sequatchie is for Real? They play a cream puff schedule and still no matter how you slice it they Lost last night. A Loss is a Loss!!! I still say they will not win another game this year!!

A loss *IS* a loss, that's true. All accounts, however, seem to agree that SEQUATCHIE played a strong game and had some nice players. Just like TYNER was not hanging their heads over a loss to FULTON, SEQUATCHIE should not hang their heads over a loss to TYNER. The nature of the game is that someone has to lose. Playing a good, hard fought, well coached game is a sign of good things to come for SEQUATCHIE.

Congrats to TYNER and good luck to both teams the rest of the season. Sounds like SEQUATCHIE is for real. Would love to see the rest of the conference improve like they have this season. As was mentioned, strength of schedule always seems to hurt TYNER when they run into the privates in post-season.

Good to hear the band played well. Does SEQUATCHIE have a new band director this year?

who cares about the band this is about the game and i think sequatchie will win by 16

Tyner 7

Sequatchie 29

The band *IS* about the game. Good bands know when to play to pump up the team, and when not to play. Good thing about Tyner is that the band and the team work so well together. Ask the players if they'd rather play when the band is there or when they're not. Also, a lot of the football players are -- or were -- in the band.

Synergy.....

Not to mention a lot more hungry mouths for concessions and proud parents buying tickets.

...I hi-lited some of the points you made and that's why I began this thread with a comparison of how both teams played Bledsoe...the only question I can't answer(because I was out-of-town that weekend) is the Brainerd game...from what I was told the RAMS were out-played...they had a bad day at the office which all teams have from time-to-time...I haven't seen Sequatchie play this year but I know enough about them from seeing them in years past...no game can ever be played on paper...what works for one team may not work for another...should be a good game...we'll see soon enough!!!

Ultimately Brainerd vs. Tyner is the definition of a true rivalry. Doesn't matter how the teams look on paper or what their records, it will always be a game that can go either way and means more than any other game of the season. No denying that Tyner has had the upper hand recently -- I think Tyner is the better team -- but this is a game where pride is on the line more than any other. A lot of these kids live in the same neighborhoods, went to the same elementary schools, go to the same churches, etc. Imagine how much more intense the game would be if it were a division game!

I think a lot of it has to do with the mismanagement of the Hamilton County school system as a whole. Since coming in, Jesse Register has cut all "non-essential" programs, including athletics (assistant coaches, buses, uniforms, etc), arts (unless specifically designated an "arts magnet"), and even bookkeepers, support personnel, and teacher salaries. Eventually, everything in the system is running on overload and something has to give. Maybe things will change now that the good doctor has "retired".

I would much rather play a team like Fulton and lose than a weak non-region opponent and blow them out. I think the kids learn alot more from a tough loss than a blowout win. Fulton is a good team, and I think Tyner realized they have a good team as well last night, we just have to keep it going.

 

As far as the band, the dancers for Tyner were not able to participate during the halftime show at the game, so the band had to cut out all of the fast and flashy songs that involved the dancers. The band was still good, looked and sounded great. The drumline also performed on the track after halftime and they were great!

Sorry to hear about the dance team. Agree 100% about tough non-region games. This may be the year we have the worst regular season record in a long time but go further in the play-offs. Sometimes the guys go so long without a good test that once they get hit they fold too quickly.

Thanks for the response!

I'd just like to say as a Tyner fan that I'm pleased to be associated with posters who know so much about the game and aren't afraid to acknowledge getting beaten by an opponent who earns the win. Proud to be a Tyner fan, even in our loss last night.

How was the band?

This may be OT, but if a band is referred to as "just pimp" is that a positive or a negative? Do I want to be "pimp"?

Thanks in advance for the answer.

How is Knox Fulton's band?

Polk County has got a horrible bleacher section that should have been condemned years ago. Bledsoe County has a very nice field.