charlie

Thanks to the moderators for closing the thread. Nothing to be gained. We value our athletic relationship with Baylor. They have an outstanding program and we enjoy the sometimes heated and always exciting competition between our two schools. Jim Morgan is an outstanding coach as is Gordon Connell. It seems the two athletic staffs seem to keep things in a better perspective than some of the supporters of both schools.

Bill Cherry

Thanks to the moderators for closing the thread. Nothing to be gained. We value our athletic relationship with Baylor. They have an outstanding program and we enjoy the sometimes heated and always exciting competition between our two schools. Jim Morgan is an outstanding coach as is Gordon Connell. It seems the two athletic staffs seem to keep things in a better perspective than some of the supporters of both schools.

Bill Cherry

Article III, Section 14, page 29:

"A school team cannot practice with or scrimmage another school team until both schools have practiced a minimum of three days from the beginning practice date in each sport."

"The first practice in pads is Monday of the week of August 1."

That means the first scrimmages cannot take place until Thursday, Aug. 5.

Ooops, oops, opps. The TSSAA number is (615) 889-6740.

Sorry, guys!

This thread has become a soap opera. CoachT or someone, it's time to end it! Much too personal.

We've talked over and over about the Traditional tournament being an individual tournament. Do we "know" McCallie's decision wasn't about individuals? No question Manley got the short end of the stick. But, I thought Coach Connell was fullfilling a promise he made to another wrestler who took one for the team last year...and four out of five individuals are happy aren't they?

Then why keep a team score in the Traditional tournament?

Wake up everybody.As has been said repeatedly its nice to get the traditonal team trophy but thats what the DUALS are for. If McCallie would have won the tradtional team trophy they still would NOT be considered the best head to head team in D2. Father Ryan took that honor a few weeks back. All this one would have done is help fill the sschools/coaches trophy case and resume. Manley may have known he got shafted since Christmas but it does not make the decision more fair just because he knew he got shafted longer than the general public was aware of it.. To me it means he has more charachter than others involved. Cancel the duals and those in defense o McCallie may have an argument. Otherwise there is none. Pantheon, your middle school example is not relevant. You helped someone WIN an individual title when the previous matchups were both losing battles. In this case Manley could have won 40, or 45, hands down. I wonder what school the younger Manley will attend?

What about Smith who won at 140 and Blair who won at 145. What do you do with one of them if you allow Manley to have his way? Blair is a senior as well.

For bringing and keeping Bradley to/at the top of Tennessee wrestling.

For being a class guy.

For your contibutions to the sport in so many other ways than winning.

And also a big thanks to Alan Jones!

The more appropriate term is "nonpublic".

Any DI nonpublic moving to DII would not have to play any Super 7 team. In fact in Middle Tenn nothing would really change accept they would have BGA in the region. DII has a proposal before the Board of Control to have two classes in sports other than football. DII would flourish and this thread would die a graceful death!!

Per the TSSAA recruiting rule"

1. No private school employee may talk to a student or his parents about admission or financial aid unless the student and parents are on the campus for an official admissions visit.

2. If a private school coach is approached, say in the grocery store, by a prospective parent, the coach is to tell the parent that he cannot discuss his child's possible admission. He must contact the school's admissions office. This gets the coach off the hook.

3. The private schools' biggest "recruiters" are present or former parents, who tell friends about their positive experiences in the private school.

4. Most school's admissions "packet" includes the Princeton FA forms, or the parent must request the form.

5. Process: Parent requests admissions application from the school. They may also ask for the FA forms if they are not included in the packet. If there is an application submitted, an admissions test is scheduled. Many of the schools use the ERB as an admissions test. Grades from student's present school must be submitted. If the sudent is admitted, the parents must sign an admissions contract and pay a reservation fee to hold their place for the coming year. Usually the acceptance letter is issued before any discussion of financial aid.

The FA report comes to the school with the information of how much is in the family budget for education. The school then has to determine how much they can help the family close the gap between what Princeton says they can pay and what the tuition costs are. Few private schools can meet the full need of a family.

All schools are seeking academically gifted students and students who can cope successfully with the academic demands of the school. If a student is a proven athlete, artist or musician, this will certainly be in his favor when the school is making admissions decisions. The school generally does not make an admissions decision based on the family's ability to pay. Financial aid is separate from admissions. Once a student is admitted, the parents then have to deal with the financial arrangements.

Baldcoach-

If a school does have a financial aid program (goes through Princeton), but denies it to a student because said student wants to participate in athletics, isn't that discrimination within your own school?

What if a student has received aid in grades 6 - 8 and has participated in athletics. When he becomes a ninth-grader, you just cut him off because he wants to continue with athletics? Seems pretty cold-hearted.

Exactly the reason some schools choose to be in DII... it's the principle. Don't believe in in-school discrimination. Parents should not be forced to make the choice of aid or athletics, especially if he(she) has been in the school for a number of years and recieved aid previously.

Oh... me think that some DI privates have found other ways to skin the cat.

Someone explain why Tennessee is the ONLY state that discriminates against member schools because they are private and/or they have a need-based financial aid program? Georgia has state power Marist who for years has dominated 4A. There are over 20 private schools in Georgia that give need-based financial aid and there seems to be no problem. Georgia has instituted a 1.5 multiplier.

Am not sure what makes Tennessee so unique. DII schools pay the same TSSAA fees as everyone else, yet they have been segregated. Some have to travel six hours to play a region game -- miss classes, chances of road accidents are greater, expenses more. Why? Because several years ago they began to win too many championships. Have always played under the same rules and regulations as everyone else.

People use the term "level playing field". Well heck, Tennessee Tech and the Vols aren't on a level field because the Vols have more resources. That's life. Somebody come along and give Tennessee Tech football $20 million and they might soon be up there with the mighty Vols. Why punish Tennessee because Tech is not as strong?

DII schools cannot give "athletic scholarships". Please see TSSAA financial aid rule. DII schools cannot recruit athletes. Please see TSSAA recruiting rule. Please become more informed. No DII school is an "athletic scholarship school".

Come on over to DII and be happy. No public/private debates. No rumors. No in-school discrimination, ala DI's give FA, but not to athletes -- worse kind of discrimination ever! Done by Christians too.

Come on over to DII and be happy. Don't have to listen to any public/private debates, misinformation or rumors any more. Few DII's would ever go back.

What a misguided, totally uninformed statement.

Ignorance is the most violate element in our society.

BC is not going to take on teams they feel aggressively recruits (or "have" recruited) wrestlers other D1 programs have developed.

 

It's sort of like our government taxing a percentage of every dollar once, i.e., young talent, and again once the remainder of that dollar matures in savings it is taxed again as income, and again when used to purchase and one more time when the purchased item is willed to their children. Then these same dollars are used to provide income to others not willing to put forth the work to develop their own skills, i.e., young wrestlers, and provide a good living (or success) for themselves. This can be frustrating if one should take inventory of their losses to the advantage of others.

 

Should a % the hard work (investment) of a coach be taken each year by the private schools and then used to work against them?

 

When I was at Hixson years ago we lost half of our stud wrestlers and football players to private schools. I, nor my brothers were not a part of this exodus obviously (usually the red 1st and the blue 2nd benefited from Wildcat talent then). A couple of years before, Gordon was fortunate to keep the Tom Popp's, Randy Batten's and others to become the #1 team,,, with ALL SCHOOLS (public or private) involved in the mid-seventies.

 

I'm not sure how much of that happens today, but it has made a few coaches angry as certain key investments were tapped into like Uncle Sam.

 

soms

Be careful soms. A few Red Bank boys have found their way to Bradley, just as have a few guys found their way to McCallie and Baylor. Big advantage for Baylor and McCallie. They get their kids in the 6th/7th grades. Lots of advantage having them in the same system for 7 years.

I think we all would have liked to see a Bradley/McCallie or a Bradley/Baylor match. Would have been good for the sport. Steve L. is an excellent coach and a gentleman. Although disappointed that such a match never took place, we respect his decision.

Sadly, all of this is about winning. Classification, division II, the Collinwood proposal. Some refer to it as the "level playing field".

There was a time when private schools in general could not compete athletically with public schools. How many 3A basketball championships were won by private schools? Before classification how many basketball championships were won by private schools?

In the business sector competition makes some companies better. Ford is a better company because of General Motors, Nissan and Honda. They have to be in order to compete for our dollars. And they are better because they know we consumers have a choice of products. One would have thought under the same circumstances, public schools would have gotten better because of the competition of the growing numbers of nonpublic schools. Maybe they have. But wouldn't it be nice for Ford if they could somehow eliminate General Motors, Honda and Nissan.

It is also too bad that TSSAA is the only game in town. If a school wants to field a high school football team in Tennessee, it has to be a member of TSSAA. The private schools have no other choice. Sure, they could all leave TSSAA and form a private school league. Problem is that they would no longer be members of the National Federation which means they could not compete with teams in other states. The NF will only sanction/recognize ONE association from a state.

Too much rambling. Sorry. Cuts in public school funding of coaching supplements, coaching positions, etc have probably allowed nonpublic schools to gain the competitive edge over the years. There is also (at least in metro areas) a lack of proper maintenance of public school athletic facilities, which does not help the image. Bottom line: have public schools been unable to compete in general (not just athletically)? Could public schools, instead of trying to eliminate nonpublics, somehow use the nonpublics as a model? I don't know.

As we all know Ford will never eliminate General Motors or Honda. But if Ford fails to keep up, they will go out of business. This is all too complicated for me!

mctigerfan- You are correct about choice. Choice is what America is all about. Then why should the private schools be punished - some of them essentially banned from the true TSSAA arena? Parents have a right to make choices without fear of being accused of everything in the world. TSSAA has a recruiting rule. All the private schools that I know of abide by it. If someone recruits, they should be reported.

Good folks on this Board make general statements all the time about how private schools can/do recruit. They talk about financial aid as an athletic scholarship - there ain't no such thing!! At most of the older private schools, there are more students on FA that don't participate in varsity sports then those that do.

Misinformation and rumors is how this public/private stuff got started and is perpetuated. Go visit a private school. Talk to their admissions people. Ask them about "scholarships". Ask them if their coaches are allowed to recruit athletes. You will either leave with your eyes opened or believing they lied to you.

By the way - I was a member of the MCHS undefeated 1956 football Tigers. And I don't spend time under rocks.

Folks need to get off the Financial Aid thing. ALL public school students are on FULL financial aid. Also remember that private school parents still pay their taxes that support public schools. Be careful here that we are not promoting mediocrity - create a way to make everyone equal and everyone is happy, ala 5 classes in DI football.

Folks need to get off the Financial Aid thing. ALL public school students are on FULL financial aid. Also remember that private school parents still pay their taxes that support public schools. Be careful here that we are not promoting mediocrity - create a way to make everyone equal and everyone is happy, ala 5 classes in DI football.

You guys are too young.

1957 Oak Ridge team with Jackie Pope. Beat an undefeated Chattanooga Central the last game of the season.

1965 BGA waltzed through 11 opponents (before playoffs) Ranked #1 from week one. Some of the victims were Mur. Cental 42-7, Clarksville (then the only hs in Clarksville). Crossville was ranked #2 at seasons end. Tobacco Bowl: BGA 47- Crossville 7. Four BGA players signed with Tennessee, Don Denbo and Steve Robinson both started in off line for the Vols for 3 years.

Nashville Issac Litton 1966

Readers will have to know that I do not speak for any group of schools. My personal opinion is that all TSSAA schools will not be together again, at least in my lifetime. I did vote for the Collinwood proposal because philosophically I feel that all nonpublic schools should be together. I have also come to believe since the formation of DII, that the "playing field" is not level when one considers public vs nonpublic - facilities, student body selection, number of coaches, etc. Because we are privately funded, we have more flexibility and more accountability. We have to provide a good product when we charge $1000's in tuition. Public schools have little control over their finances. I think with all 70 or so nonpublic schools in one group would be a very attractive league.

I for one would want to stay in TSSAA, but would appreciate representation on the Board and Council. The TSSAA staff and others do a really good job of administering our athletic playoffs and tournaments. Ronnie Carter and staff have tried very hard to hold this organization together and to be fair to all members.

Financial aid is a grossly misunderstood concept. It is NOT athletic scholarships. It is nowhere close to the college scholarship concept. We have believed in need-based financial aid since our founding in 1905. Our tuition is $12,000 and we do not want to be an elitest school. We do not want to be a "country club". As with most of us, no athletic person at my school has a say in who does or does not receive aid.

I've rambled too much. Sorry. Hope I answered your question.

Readers will have to know that I do not speak for any group of schools. My personal opinion is that all TSSAA schools will not be together again, at least in my lifetime. I did vote for the Collinwood proposal because philosophically I feel that all nonpublic schools should be together. I have also come to believe since the formation of DII, that the "playing field" is not level when one considers public vs nonpublic - facilities, student body selection, number of coaches, etc. Because we are privately funded, we have more flexibility and more accountability. We have to provide a good product when we charge $1000's in tuition. Public schools have little control over their finances. I think with all 70 or so nonpublic schools in one group would be a very attractive league.

I for one would want to stay in TSSAA, but would appreciate representation on the Board and Council. The TSSAA staff and others do a really good job of administering our athletic playoffs and tournaments. Ronnie Carter and staff have tried very hard to hold this organization together and to be fair to all members.

Financial aid is a grossly misunderstood concept. It is NOT athletic scholarships. It is nowhere close to the college scholarship concept. We have believed in need-based financial aid since our founding in 1905. Our tuition is $12,000 and we do not want to be an elitest school. We do not want to be a "country club". As with most of us, no athletic person at my school has a say in who does or does not receive aid.

I've rambled too much. Sorry. Hope I answered your question.

The agenda for the Regional Meetings is determined by the Board and Council. If they receive a "sticky" proposal, they may put it on the Regional agenda to get the feel of the membership. So proposals must first go to the Board or Council. Two years ago a proposal for one wrestling tournament was on the agenda of the March Board meeting in Murfreesboro. It failed because no one was there to speak in favor of the proposal - not even the folks who got it on the agenda! My opinion is there will never be one tournament again. Reason: Publics will demand a financial aid rule for privates and we've already been there/done that. It won't happen. Give it up.

Bill Cherry