hoopsrgr8

http://www.dnj.com/article/20090614/OPINIO...rule+violations

Thank You "luvsmokymnts"

That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about!!!

TSSAA & Wilson County BOE & Schools Director, READ THE ARTICLE BELOW

http://www.dnj.com/article/20090614/OPINIO...rule+violations

Okay you are repeating yourself. Your first post gave me the impression that sanctions were already given on the first violations. Another coach told you so. You said also that "during the time the video was shown and discussed on coacht and forwarded to the TSSAA" and my impression of that earlier post was that coacht sent it to the TSSAA himself. You were also told of the violations but you did not say what they were and I thought you had cleared that out of your mind. I then thought what you were takeing about were the alledged violations that happened after the first sanctions were given, whatever they were. So, Get information about the violations and get your school to turn it in. They will know how to do it Ge ###### passed to the TSSAA And then the TSSAA will do the rest on investigation and making a ruling.

Intentional and malicious are two different words and not to disagree with you much. You must know more than you have posted. I don't agree or disagree with anything you have posted. BUT if you are leader of the pack, you are the one to do it. And not being privy to your information, anything new can change "the neat little package" you say I created. My post only explained what I knew about the system and certainly had holes that needed to be filled.

One last thing I might mention, I am unsure I understand why you think you can't turn the violations in that happened after the ruling on the first violations. Are you and the parents you say are involved saying you don't know where to send them in? Someone, so you contend, got them to the right place to start with and you were told the sanctions unofficially by another coach. Could he have been mistaken. Seems it would be easy to do it again if they did it once.

I know you know this, it takes more knowing all you mentioned than you just saying it. You have made a good presentation. But you and whoever else who wants to are going to have to go thru the same procedure as was gone thru in the beginning and let the investigation play out.

There are a lot of accusations here and it appears the TSSAA has the system to move it along. Who is going to put their name on the document outling it, go thru the investigation and go thru the system? I tried to make something out of what has been said and I agree, so much has been posted about this subject, it hard to develop a time frame when and if things happened. I guess the thing that is most confusing, a coach tells you of the sanctions and explains results in May.but right now, no one knows what was in the evidence presented and what the sanctions for. Then there is a second group of violations that may or may not have been presented.

I have tried to be objective using your thoughts but Iam having difficulty in following the alledged violations and the time frame when the coach you talked to gave you the information.

 

 

1)March 16th- Filming

2)Film sent to TSSAA? By whom

3)Film sent to TSSAA By coachT

4)Violations noted on film sent to TSSAA--?

5)Alledged Investigation by Tssaa--?

6)Sanctions by TSSAA--?

7)Discussion with associate coach about sanctions--May but sanctions not posted.

8)Discussion with hoopsrgrg8 with new revelations as his discussions with helping MJ parents with MJ problems and getting involved with another schools program June16-17(says he is a coach at another school)

9)other violations concerning situation including intentional and malicious conduct-?

 

No wonder it takes a lot of TSSAA time to look at one of these. These are not criminal matters, the school may get fined but no one on this thread will make that decision and as far as the school is concerned, they and the TSSAA will dispose of the matter with the coach. They need information concerning the matter.

I will answer to the best of my ability, but I do not comprehend much of your post/questions.

This thread has already taken waaay too much of my time.

1)March 16th- Filming -

Don't know

2)Film sent to TSSAA? By whom-

A Civic Group

3)Film sent to TSSAA By coachT -

Confirmed by CoachT

4)Violations noted on film sent to TSSAA--?-

Don't know, TSSAA Business

5)Alledged Investigation by Tssaa--?-

Confirmed, but still TSSAA Business

6)Sanctions by TSSAA--?-

Unconfirmed Statement from reliable source

7)Discussion with associate coach about sanctions--May but sanctions not posted.

Correct

8)Discussion with hoopsrgrg8 with new revelations as his discussions with helping MJ parents with MJ problems and getting involved with another schools program June16-17(says he is a coach at another school)-

He or She? No involvement - listened to comments - read Girls basketball calendar & told them where to find it on TSSAA website

9)other violations concerning situation including intentional and malicious conduct-?-

Parents state that according to Girls basketball calendar, more practices occuring than allowed by TSSAA.

I hope they turn him in, but doubt they will for several reasons. Use your imagination or refer back to my previous posts.

I see some coaches and administrators outraged and I see others shaking their heads and chuckling about the video stating it's OK, everyone does it.

The apathy and acceptance of rule violations is a bad thing for High School Sports.

I'm Praying for change.

Again, while the ball is moved down the field a little more, there is nothing confirming anything except a film but if accounts are correct according to 8, this seems to be what he said happened.

1)The film was made showing whatever it showed, etc.

2)The film got to the TSSAA some way and its not sure how it happened. The newspaper in Rutherford stated the associated school had to make out a report, send it to the Rutherford County head of schools and then after both gave their thoughts, sent it on to the TSSAA for them to see. However it happened, to the creditability of the schools and the TSSAA up until this point, procedures seemed to be handled methodically. Whether the Director of Schools Wilson County touched the paperwork, its unsure but procedurally it was supposed to touch the report. All of this is the reason why its been said that looking at things such as this takes so much time.

3)Sometime between the time the film was made and May, according to Coach 8, the decision was made as to the results and the sanctions and rumors passed around the coaching community, right or wrong. He insinuated MJ had violated rules and said he "was told" of what were 3 sanctions, none confirmed but he considered not hard. This was not confirmed.

4) If this was true, all parties at this point thought the matter was resolved, the school, the school system and the coach. Rumors were going around which, true or not true, meant nothing. After, seeing both of these situations and knowing of others posted on this site, the nature of a school seems to be "We made a mistake and we signed an agreement to follow these rules and we quietly want to resolved this, accept the sanctions and take what actions on the next review of the parties concerned. We are embarassed and we need to go on to something else." It becomes an internal school issue and the Principal has to approve everything that is done after that time if directed. Every situation seems to be different and in one case in East Tennessee, a poster(a Coach) posted on here about a transfer misunderstanding, "mistakes were made, we are not criminals" and on a minor infraction had to forfeit most of their games. But it was accepted. The same thing happened to a school in Memphis and it was quietly taken care of. Others have been mentioned but in every case, the Schools when presented with the facts, have done the right thing and are creditable.

5)Now, what makes this situation different if anything? It's unbelieveable that something can go on for 10 years and a school not be called down for it. Infractions, especially if there is more than one school in a county, might be best handled internally between Principals but with personnel changing so much, who knows. If that does not work, here we are and what some say is correct, what does this show? This situation is different in that some think no sanctions have been given, some think they have been given and not hard enough, and some think that they have been given and are still not being followed. In the Riverdale situation, I thought the press was involved in the situation too much. However they did provide communication. In this situation, no press=no communication, just rumors. There has to be middle ground and the Schools and the TSSAA need to examine it. If a school continues to violate set out rules, nothing says they cannot be turned in again and after a while they will spend a lot of money.

So here is the situation. Maybe someone else can shed some more light on the subject since at this time, most of this is still heresay.

For what it's worth, the only issue that IS heresay is whether or not the TSSAA has issued sanctions. All other issues are substantiated fact.

The video proves that the MJ coach cannot say it was an accident or he didn't understand the rules as they were written. He knew he was violating the rules because he had someone there (the ball boy) trying to cover for him and he was trying not to be so obvious by sitting behind the bench.

During the time the video was being viewed and discussed on CoachT and forwarded to the TSSAA, the MJ coach was practicing more than the alotted time given by the TSSAA.

How do I know?

I have many friends and associates at MJ and a friend's daughter is on the MJ team. They have contacted me numerous times concerning TSSAA interpretation of the girls basketball calendar. I can assure you that there have been many more violations documented by parents of players.

What good does it do to document violations if you can't turn them in?

Would a coach be committing these violations if they did not consider themselves immune to TSSAA sanctions?

I seriously doubt it and the parents see this also.

Inadvertant violations are one thing and should be treated as such when handing down sanctions.

Intentional & malicious violations are a totally different subject and should be treated as such when handing down sanctions.

I could be wrong, but I think this neat little package you created will unravel and the issue is far from being over.

This is a good and fair post. Still no confirmed action, just word of mouth and unlike the Riverdale sanctions, MJ is playing in Shelbyville playdays. It might be interesting to know where the information came from to you in May. That would have been a swift and decisive decision unless it was MJ who made a self inflicted decision as Riverdale did to start and then accepted a decision from the TSSAA. That is the reason for my question. My point is, did the school make a decision and has the decision played out? And so there is full disclosure, did your school turn in the infraction to MJ then to the appropriate Director of schools in Wilson County and then to the TSSAA?

Thats what the Dnj reported concerning Riverdale in Rutherford. If thats so, things would be clearing up quickly as to what has happened. If you don't want to answer, please forget I asked. This by no means, says there was an infraction but only looks at the procedure so everyone will start to know at least that.

Correct. There was nothing confirmed. It was just a question in passing from a coach close to the program, "Did you hear about Fryer on YouTube?" I replied that I had just recently seen the video on CoachT and they told me that the sanctions had been handed down from the TSSAA and what they were. I can only remember 2 of the 3 stated. If correct and I hope they are not, it basically says cheating is OK.

I have no idea what the details, if any, are between the school & the TSSAA. After the YouTube video came out, a friend with the TSSAA did confirm that there were in fact violations and the TSSAA was looking into it, but that it did not necessarily mean the TSSAA would act on the violations. Any action would be left to the discretion of the Executive Director. At the time, it was Ronnie Carter.

Although his violations have been a running joke among coaches for years, the answer is NO, I nor my school turned the MJ coach in to the TSSAA.

I saw MJ last week in Murfreesboro and have seen them around this week in Shelbyville.

Every time I see their coach, I can't help thinking of the video and what an embarrasment he is to the school & the coaching profession.

I don't think this is just a speeding ticket. MJ friend said He started coaching and practicing what was left of his team (losing 4 seniors and all 4 juniors had quit) in March '08 2 to 3 days a week. There is supposed to be a 3 week Dead Period after the last game. Meanwhile he was requiring his team to practice and play games and tournaments while school was still in session (another TSSAA violation).

While sanctions were being handed down from TSSAA, it did not slow him down a bit. He and his staff were / are still breaking TSSAA rules. How do sanctions work if the coach & administration don't follow the rules anyway?

 

Hoops, informative post. Is MJ your school? Usually a person with few posts has an axe to grind and making sure MJ is your school. Since I believe most are learning, Your next to the last sentence mentions " while the sanctions were being handed down from the TSSAA",has sanctions been handed down from the TSSAA? And for what violation? And for the information on this post, has the friend told the Tssaa or the principal of these alleged violations? if you had rather not answer these questions,please don't. The discovery that 4 juniors quit after the season was over is revealing. So 4 seniors gone and 4 juniors quitting and since you mentioned it, what was the reason for the 4 juniors quitting. Thats unusual. Things like this are not normally posted on this site. Did the parents agree your posting it on this site? Knowing somewhat how other things were handled with players quitting at that school, the coach usually lets the team vote as to whether they might return if they quit. And the vote stands. Did that happen in this case? This has nothing to do with the violations but might explain the motivation.

 

For the last time on this subject, the methods of settling disputes in athletics usually is not well spelled out in high school and confusion exists many times because methods are explained but generally not remembered. And then after a decison is made, there is no way to appeal. The coach has been doing this for some time and evidently without complaint. Ravenwood High and the schools in their Region have evidently agreed on the rules and the way of handling conflicts and have posted the ways to settle them and posted the procedures on their web site. They are well thought out. Reading the procedures might give some help to procedures for solutions.

 

I have been following HS sports for sometime and this year has had more conflicts than I remember. Do I think that breaking rules is just something people just do. No. Has the system just broken down in some areas? It appears so. It appears that the parents of athletes in the State are providing the imputus to keep high school sports in line thruout the state. As long as they do that, things will level out. There are very creditable people coaching sports in the State. There are very creditable parents volunteering their time to help schools provide athletics and other extracurricular programs in the State. It is very easy to armchair criticize everyone involved in the process of high school athletics. And that does include the parents involved in helping too. Thats teachers, Principals, booster club members, and for that matter parents and even athletes themselves. Wonder what ever happened to the supporters? They are still out here but out of the 63000 members it only takes a few faceless fans who post and have just discovered that this is an imperfect world full of imperfect people with a large degree of different imperfections, hiding behind many different disguises and with many agendas. There wil be more conflicts this coming year but the imperfections will still be there. Its obvious that the total story of this thread has not been told. Unless those involved take their complaints thru a process, and understand from where all of this has come from, it may never be known.

I'm fairly new to CoachT so I try to watch & listen more than express opinion. MJ is not my school although I have many friends and collegues that teach & coach at MJ. I make few posts due to time constraints. Yes, I have a bone to pick.

I was told in May that sanctions were placed, however I have not seen anything in the paper as was the case for the Riverdale coach. The sanctions explained to me were a joke. They would only apply to people that try to follow the rules. A TSSAA official stated that by the time a coach is exposed cheating, it is usually just a fraction of what they have actually been doing. MJ friends close to the program told me this particular coach has been cheating for 10 years.

When I see a coach openly cheat, putting his team & program at risk of sanctions, get caught and not be replaced, it does nothing to deter this coach and other coaches from committing more violations. Penalties should be swift & severe to discourage cheating.

Nobody is perfect, but coaches are supposed to be setting an example. Anyone that would condone a coach cheating has some serious deficiencies in ethics.

When I hear that this coach received special treatment because his principal sits on the TSSAA, it smells of corruption and tells me that changes need to be made starting at the top.

I've been associated with girls basketball since 1968. Nobody hates to lose more than I do, but the thought of cheating to gain an advantage over my opponents never enters my mind. If we can't win through hard work & strategy, we'll take the loss.

No, I don't know why the 4 Juniors quit, but MJ is a small-medium sized community and there aren't many secrets there. You are right, the 4 Juniors quitting is unusual and should raise some concern. The point made of all 4 Juniors quitting the program was that there is a problem and from what I'm told, it's been going on for some time.

I don't need permission from parents to post the fact that 4 Juniors quit a program.

I don't agree with players being allowed to vote on other players staying or going. Wouldn't that be a conflict of interest? The less players, the more playing time for other players. Whether a player comes or goes should not be decided by a popularity contest. Part of our job as coaches is to build & nurture team chemistry.

I will now step down from the soapbox /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" />

Termination? Pretty extreme. Not infraction that warrants terminations. Lets not shoot a man for speeding.

According to my MJ friend, Worden55 is correct. There are a lot of people that want him gone and are working towards that goal. They even have a website.

I don't think this is just a speeding ticket. MJ friend said He started coaching and practicing what was left of his team (losing 4 seniors and all 4 juniors had quit) in March '08 2 to 3 days a week. There is supposed to be a 3 week Dead Period after the last game. Meanwhile he was requiring his team to practice and play games and tournaments while school was still in session (another TSSAA violation).

While sanctions were being handed down from TSSAA, it did not slow him down a bit. He and his staff were / are still breaking TSSAA rules. How do sanctions work if the coach & administration don't follow the rules anyway?

His principal must really have alot of TSSAA friends to just thumb their noses at the rules & sanctions!

If you want to make a comparison to a traffic viaolation this would be more like several DUI's.

Yes it does matter. This thread is not about a coach cheating. As the first post says it is about "Claims of TSSAA violations". That was specifically posted. It is now about what a poster, Dirkdiggler, says a "coach that's cheating" who says he doesn't even know of the situation, the school and has not even posted the alledged rules violations but now is judge and jury of this whole situation. He has not even written to the TSSAA explaining the violation and putting his name on the document along with the name of who recorded the film. His issue is different than the reason this thread was started. Now he is claiming that this coach is unethical and uncomfortable with his own performance without even the slightest level of integrity, a personal attack. I would say, let this poster continue to post.

 

How ridiculous! The whole subject shows how selfish a coach can become and how blind his followers can be. It's all about him and how the video makes him look. It's the camera's fault, wait no, it's the shooter's fault. It has to be somebody else's fault because it can't be the coaches fault.

 

How many of the "mentally challenged" have tried to point fingers in every direction except where they belong, The Coach?

 

The video and this thread are all about cheating and committing TSSAA Rule violations which are the same. Regardless of who it was that got caught, it is unethical behavior. If the person had any honor whatsoever and cared about the program and it's players, they would man up, admit that they committed the violations and resign.

If the coach or anyone else, especially the TSSAA or MJHS administration cared about the players and their hard work, this guy would be out on his ear.

 

Example:

Think what kind of position it puts the players in when the coach says we have practice Tuesday, July 15, 2008 (weight training & conditioning only). They suspect or know it's a TSSAA rule violation, but they also know that if they don't show up for practice, they will be kicked off the team or at the very least see no play time. What should a 15/16 year old do?

If they go to the school administration, it gets back to the coach and their career is history!

If they go to the TSSAA, it then goes to the school administration, then to the coach and their career is still history!

The players and their parents are aware of the violations. They know it's wrong, but who do they go to?

 

I heard the TSSAA has already handed down the sanctions. If true, they were less than a slap on the wrist.

2008-2009 TSSAA Handbook

Article III Compliance (Page 17)

Enforcement:

 

Section 4: The Executive Director shall, in his discretion, determine whether information about any possible violation of the TSSAA Constitution or Bylaws is sufficiently reliable to justify "further" investigation. The Executive Director shall also, "in his discretion", determine whether to conduct any investigation of possible violations of the Constitution or Bylaws as well as the nature and extent of any investigation that may be conducted and the procedures to be used in any such investigation. Factors to be considered by the Executive Director in making these determinations may include, but are not limited to, the workload of the TSSAA office, the seriousness of the alleged violation, the availability of staff members to assist in any investigation, the cost of investigation, the time needed to conduct an investigation, and any other factor the Executive Director may deem releveant in making these decisions.

 

Many infractions are reported to the TSSAA probably on a weekly basis; however, you can submit tons of documents; photos, videos, receipts, emails, real estate documents, text messages, etc. but if "the Executive Director" chooses to not "investigate it".....it is a dead issue, no matter what the "proof" may be. A thorough and full investigation takes a LONG time to complete---it is not a "10-day process". The 10-day process involves a few phone calls to the utility boards, landlords, the principal--maybe a few meetings at the school involved or a couple of cigars over a drink or too; and then a decision is made. A "full investigation" would take a VERY LONG time. As you can read in the bylaws above--sometimes they choose NOT to take this route and therefore; the issue is dead. IMO, this does NOT mean that the incident did not take place or that the "proof" was not there---it just means that "for whatever reason---they may choose to look the other way" or the TSSAA "just cannot "afford" a lengthy investigation--it's not in the budget, etc.

 

Who knows what will happen regarding this particular MJ video--but 95% of coaches and school administration will tell you---that nothing will probably be done about it--regardless of whether the "rules" have been violated or what the video shows. One would believe that it is an "open and shut" case, but who knows? Stranger things have happened.

That's scary, but you're probably right.

Giving the Executive Director that much discretion is asking for trouble in the form of favoritism or even financial corruption. All violations should be reported to a BOD to lower the odds of favoritism or corruption.

Why have TSSAA rules if they are not going to be enforced at all or are arbitrarily enforced?

In talking to a Mt. Juliet resident, she says he hasn't even slowed down since the video. She said he's currently recruiting a player from Lebanon and that the Mt. Juliet Mafia will take care of everything.

It seems that Mt. Juliet Principal Mr. Brown's school has TSSAA immunity since he's on the TSSAA Legislative Council.

Amazing!

How anyone can defend this coach is beyond me. The rules are clearly stated and you're not supposed to be coaching your players at this time.

 

Honestly, anyone that would defend this coach that is making a mockery of the rules here is probably a coach that is guilty himself of similar wrongdoing.

 

Make an example of him because this type of blatant cheating is so prevalent.

I can't understand how Murfreesboro Riverdale coach Maxwell can get sanctioned so severely for an inadvertant violation of allowing the Middle School girls team in the locker room for drinks & snacks.

While the video of coach Fryer coaching the varsity and 8th graders in the same tournament seems to be recruiting violations much more so than snacks & drinks in the locker room.

This guy gets turned in in August 08 for years of documented intentional violations and the TSSAA didn't even investigate the charges.

To me, it reeks of favoritism or unequal and arbitrary enforcement of the rules.

If so, the TSSAA needs more scrutiny than it currently has.

If I was Riverdale coach Maxwell and Principal Tom Nolan, I would be watching these developments very closely.

If it effects the reputation of the school, the reputation of the Coach and ESPECIALLY the needs eventually of the Student Athletes which is important to everyone especially the parents.

Which says this, IMO, EVERYONE at a school should be wary that the schools are going by the rules. If they aren't

your student/athlete's potential aspirations are at risk. That is why this is so important that the decision, if it has to be made, has to be made right and definitely not in the press or by someone posting or copying off of UTube.

The TSSAA is aware of the video. It is my understanding from sources close to the subject is that a group of people that want Coach Fryer removed due to his years of TSSAA transgressions notified the TSSAA several months ago. The TSSAA was made aware of Coach Fryer's many infractions with the understanding if nothing transpired from the TSSAA, it would be made public. I'm told there is much more evidence against Coach Fryer and possibly even the MJHS administration than just the 1 video.

Our opinions don't matter. It is entirely up to the TSSAA and the MJHS administration what happens next.

Sadly there is no consideration of the position cheating puts the girls and the school's basketball program in.

Isn't it supposed to be all about teaching the athletes good sportsmanship, ethics and dedication?

It seems the main focus of High School Sports has been lost.

Some questions:

1. Is that high school players or are they 8th graders?

high school players - brit, chelsea, kia, and others

 

2. What makes a copy of an unsigned movie on another site valid and did JoeyT do something to the information?

what does "do something to the information" mean. IT IS A LINK TO YOU TUBE. d-e-n-s-e. yea I hacked you tube and altered the video and description

 

3. Are all of these players MJ players or are they from different schools?

MJ

 

4.Was anyone talked to who made the movie?

irrelevant

 

5. Why did joeyt put it on this site instead of sending it to the TSSAa himself and let the senario play out there? what is Joeyt's motivation?

irrelevant. I didn't post it on you tube I COPIED the information. Ever here of drudge report. Its the internet phatgas

 

6. What school does JoeyT support?

irrelevant but I support the girls and rule keepers not a team

JT hit the nail on the head.

Simply put, Fryer got caught. Regardless of how much you like or dislike him or the MJ program, cheating cannot be justified.