chxian

cw160: You totally missed the point of my post on the Yankees. I'm not talking about underdogs. The point to be made is to those that want to make a blanket statement that open recruiting ensures success. It does not as the Yankees example points out. I certainly don't consider the Titans underdogs but of the remaining 4 teams they rank 25 of 32 in terms of salary spending. In case you're interested the Eagles rank #18, Bucs #11 and Steelers #2. Yes, using professional sports is not the best analogy but my point was simply to demonstrate that those that can provide the most in financial aid are not guaranteed success. Other factors are just as important.

Brownhut - Do you think the athletic success Hutch has is due to their AD having a focus on elevating this aspect of the "Hutch" experience which has historically been known for its academic emphasis? Obviously they also have some very good athletes too but so do a lot of the schools you mention in your post. What has changed at Hutchison?

I think there should be a 3X multiplier for Nashville area football schools because of their proximity to the Titans and the disproportionate number of football champions from this area and a 2X multiplier for Memphis area basketball teams, their proximity to the Grizzlies and the disproportionate number of basketball champions from this area. This should make things fair. [Edited by chxian on 1-13-03 2:39P]

ELA - How did the Yankees manage to not even make the World Series with all the money they spend getting the best players? Could it be there is more to winning championships than just providing money to get the "best" players? Maybe desire, work ethic, coaching, etc. have something to do with how teams fare.

Yeah Courtney, just trying to make the point that when people say one team outplayed the other sometimes they forget that finishing is the great equalizer in a game and teams that finish well win often despite playing poorly in other areas.

KH I couldn't agree more. Banning parent/coaches is not a panacea for ensuring team harmony. I know nothing about the club in question but for the sake of the players they would be better off, IMO, looking at their club governance model and how the attraction, selection, retention and release of coaches is carried through. The model should be to have a board that consists of parents and neutral third party soccer individuals. Just my thoughts.

It didn't make it too difficult for Ridgeway girls to win 4 times in a row, CBHS to win and of course Houston boys and girls, Germantown girls and Ridgeway boys too in recent years. Getting away from all the local distractions may help teams from the East.

Define "outplayed" then. Give specifics please.

Well it was Keith Lee and I believe Baskerville Holmes passed away. For more on Baskerville and Memphis State's men's players take a look at this article at http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2001/0604/1209377.html. [Edited by chxian on 1-10-03 1:10P]

If you define beating a team all over the field by ball possession you will have a lot of moral victories but nothing to show for it. BigStick surely you know teams actually are willing to relinquish ball possession in certain areas of the field so that they can counter and finish? Talking about moral victories has no honor.

Brilliant.

BigStick and Falcon - - which excuse is it going to be? You lose because the other teams just got "lucky" or because the big bad private schools recruit all your players?

BigStick - Please use the Smilies to indicate you are being humorous with your post about Ridgeway. If on the other hand your comments were serious, you have no clue about the sport of soccer or the teams you mention, particularly Ridgeway.

My sentiments exactly BrownHut. FRHSRules please reconcile your post on this thread with the one titled Humility under the Ryan Invitational??? Wrestling Board Thread. Why the bitterness here? Better yet, please reconcile your post on this thread with your favorite quote from your profile which goes like this: "I believe God made me for a purpose, but He also made me fast.and when I run, I feel His pleasure". I think He made West Tennesseans for a purpose too.

Hands down it's Parlow on the girls side. How about CBHS grad Richard Mulrooney on the boys side? He's the only former boys HS player from Tennessee to be called up to the US National team (in 2002 as a reserve for the World Cup) to my knowledge. It doesn't get any better than that.

For the boys, I'd have to agree with wc15 that Houston's spring 2000 team was the best if you guage play by how a team is doing at the end of the season; I'd take the CBHS 1992 team when there was only one state title (not 3) as the best start to finish team ever. For the girls, the Franklin teams of the 80's were tough but the sport in HS was still in its infancy. Based on how they played at the end of the season, the fall 2001 Ridgeway team was outstanding with top talent including players who went on to play at Auburn, Georgia and West Virginia. Start to finish, I would take the 1999 Germantown team that went undefeated and included players who now play for Georgia and Ole Miss.

One of the better models for launching an outreach project can, IMO, be found at www.inner-citysoccer.org. You'll see from their mission statement to their emphasis on corporate sponsors that they have adequate financial backing to really promote the game in communities where other sports reign supreme. Your action-oriented solution of keeping costs down is a great first step. Sense of ownership is only felt if the participants have personally invested. You can examine the mission statements (and a lot more) of our non-profit soccer organizations at www.guidestar.org. Just type in "soccer" in the keyword section and select the state of your choice. Within the Form 990 section you will see the stated mission of each organization. Again, only IMO, there could be more done to attract athletes from outside the suburbs but will take a shift in focus. I'll go on the record as saying the first club organization in Tennessee to commit to doing this will within 4 years be the dominant club in the state and you will also see a shift in HS state championships being won by suburban schools to metro schools over the course of time. Scholarships to those families of kids that have talent and desire to play beyond the recreational level must be made for those that can't afford a full investment in money and time. Those organizations that only play lip service to this will be left behind.

looking for ideas on weaknesses of club and high school soccer in Tennessee and ways to improve on these weaknesses Also, what can be done to improve upon the neglect of grass roots development of soccer in urban and rural areas...in other words, why is soccer such a predominately surburban sport compared to football, baseball and basketball?

Toro - My English professors would get a good laugh about your comment. I assure you my sentence structure is weak and I'd only hurt your grades! Thank you, but the trick is to have a thesaurus handy at all times which I do. To answer your question, you will find the quote embedded within the book authored by Anson Dorrance entitled "The Vision of a Champion". Specifically, I'd refer you to pages 99 - 106 which articulate the advantages of both club and high school play from a coaching and player perspective. There is common ground to be found on this thread by all who have contributed. Play stepped out and asked a formidable question which has a myriad of implications to players and the sport in Tennessee. My sense is that the follow up threads will draw more viewpoints into the mix. The bottom line is people posting on this thread are fans of the game but have different experiences that shape their perspective. I confess I used the "anti" words to raise the stake of the debate. I was rightfully called on it but when you use such descriptors the level of consciousness rises. The "it's not my job" mentality can't be accepted in anything we do. Take responsibility whether you are a player, coach, high school governing organization or club official to make a difference. One last thing, if you want to review some really strong "takes" on a topic, go to the Public-Private debate on this board. IMO the real savvy players on this board are participating feverishly on this topic and it might be of interest to you and you may find some real paper writers!

You are right on with Parlow. Not even close. What team do you think has had the best talent going into college? Is it Ridgeway's state championship team from 2001?

Play, For whatever reason I tried to post to you earlier and it did not come through on CoachT due to my lack of technical prowess. It was along the same lines as my comments to Hoya that my purpose for using some not so gentile terminology was to draw out some passion from intelligent posters like yourself on this board. I baited the line and it was an exquisite delicacy that only the "keepers" (pun intended) would be attracted to. You've already assumed IMO the proper position regarding soccer development in this country with your comments regarding expanding efforts to the urban communities. Having an emphasis on Recreational soccer within club environments is not the same as intentionally reaching out to urban centers with the beautiful game. If you have the influence in your community and soccer circles I would challenge you to make a first step. Hoya - your willingness to be transparent is a quality I wish I could enjoy on this board but, for now, can not. Wise of you to not jeopardize your HS team with potential undue influence by coaching club too. Are you aware that not only does the independent play rule apply to competitive teams and tournaments but also to recreational activities such as church league games? Try to make sense out of that! I love these comments by Jordan Walker, current UNC player: "I feel that in a lot of ways I got more out of high school soccer than I did from my club team. One of the great aspects of high school soccer is that you really develop a sense of community. Unlike club soccer, in high school you normally train with your team every day, just like you would in college. There are girls from four different years, so you learn how to relate to both older and younger players. You also get to grow into a role gradually, because every year there are relatively minor changes to the team. You learn how to have a sense of respect for the older players and develop a sense of leadership with the younger ones. Practicing that leadership in a high school environment is important, because it is very hard to do that on a club team with equally talented girls who are all the same age. However, in high school you have this natural order of leadership in terms of class rank." I think the best club programs recognize they also have a mission to build a sense of community within their teams and when they accomplish this they not only can be havens for producing terrific talent but developers of quality citizens and future leaders.

Dearest Hoya, Your response cuts deeply as I really did not think you had it in you to debate so forthrightly. What a mistake on my part to lump you in with other posters but your absensce made me doubt your passion for the subject matter. Please forgive this error on my part as your most recent post has some clear merit. The initial question regarding independent play was couched innocently enough by the poster but my sense was there was more to the question than meets the eye and I felt it necessary to draw it out. If you've read my posts you'll know I've mentioned that TSSAA has its flaws. You have eloquently depicted such in your post. To add to it would do you a disservice. My motivation for drawing the ire of you and Play was simply to also get some acknowledgement that there is hypocrisy not just at TSSAA but also within the organizations that are really the driving force behind youth soccer. If that has been accomplished then my time spent on this subject has been invested well. "The first to plead his case SEEMS right, UNTIL another comes and examines him." You seem to have insight on third party organizations so I'll ask this question of you and maybe another thread for your response would be appropriate. What is being done to promote the sport and attract inner-city athletes to play soccer? A follow up question would be is it even the role of third party organizations to be concerned with this issue? Anyway, thank you for taking time to respond and know that like you and the other posters on this thread it is important that we recognize just coming to this board we are "pro-soccer" and challenging one another with debate on how to keep it enjoyable for players and for the game is healthy.

Your suggestion has some merit and with a lot of work on the organization side could be a possibility. Having coached club soccer in Tampa and knowing a bit about the FHSAA (the Florida TSSAA) let me share a bit about your proposal. First, this is easy for Florida high schools to swallow since the tournament is in state and revenues are kept in state. (Wouldn't it be great if a solid organization like TNFC with its resources was to hold such a tournament in Tennessee)? Second, the statement that the Tampa Sun Bowl is played right in middle of high school season but they have elected to suspend high school soccer for three weeks so they can play is not completely accurate. The FHSAA doesn't suspend anything for tournament soccer. The tournament occurs over the holidays and because of the climate, their season doesn't run the same time as Tennessee's and they begin in the fall and end in January. It's an apple of a different shape. The Florida High Schools don't suspend practice during this tournament (or other high quality ones for that matter). The FHSAA recognized in the 70's that in-state tournaments such as this were important and the high schools still practice during the holiday but no games are scheduled. Hence, the compromise. Again, the flaw is that Tennessee doesn't offer the same flexibility due to our climate but this doesn't mean it's not possible.

Play - your lack of a strong rebuttal and answers to the questions and premises posed surprises me so please allow me to change a few of the words to your post and please tell what you think of it: my intent was and is just as you described, noble... I'm for a compromise that will take the pressure off of these kids and coaches. I am for club soccer, it is important to the club coaches and infrastructure for healthy development of these entities. I am not for HS coaches (or an organization) that are turf sensitive at the expense of these kids......that forget that these kids are working 8 to 9 months out of the year....etc, etc. Instead, I am in favor of over participation in weekend tournaments year round with multiple games a day, 2-3 days in a row, so that players can't recover properly and are more prone to injury. It's not difficult to handle, the TSSAA dates of events are out there well in advance. I'm suggesting compromise. Cause this will eventually force an unneccesary choice for the better players sooner than later. How many club coaches are willing to lose 3 or 4 key games or more because of it?

Play, At first glance, I assumed your intentions were noble in starting this thread. From your latest posts it is clear you share a strong anti high school bias with Hoya. Maybe you could start your own board on the USSF site on the virtues of year round club soccer for players and describe in detail how evil state associations are mortgaging the rosy future of American soccer and its players because their rules prohibit independent play 10 days out of the year. You could even have a special section devoted solely to those players that were seen at just those tournaments, received a scholarship as a result, along with their testimony that it was all because they saw the light and realized that developing a sense of community at their high school was not that important after all. You talk about compromise. Any definition of compromise will include the word MUTUAL at its core. Here's a suggestion - why not have the tournament organizers change the dates of their tournaments and leagues change the dates of their season..they have 12 months to work with after all? Bottom line is USSF wants to monopolize the soccer landscape and IMO the politics, greed and power will set US soccer, its players and fans back. Trust me, you think the media will tout this great sport with no interscholastic structure in place? That model works just fine in individual sports like tennis and golf but not in team sports like soccer and baseball where player parity is very close. My final comment is do you really want TSSAA to drop soccer as a sanctioned sport and put it into the realm of sports like hockey and lacrosse? That is what will happen if the TSSAA does not "accomodate" third party organizations. I anxiously await your thoughtful rebuttal.