heyitsme

I've seen both teams play --- and I consider this game a toss-up......

This was discussed "briefly" in another post.... The throw-in occurred with :59 to go in the 4th quarter. When the 10-second call was made, the clock stopped at :48 seconds. There's your "10-second" backcourt violation, plus the allowable 1 second 'lag time' to stop the clock". Turned out the call was as accurate as any human can get. It's time to accept the fact that Clarkrange had the better team on this particular day. (and I live almost 100 miles from Clarkrange with ABSOLUTELY no personal biases toward either team) Please post the 'facts', and quit relying on your emotions......................

The count continues after the release of the pass --- until the ball "touches a player, official, or the floor" in the frontcourt. :justwrestle:

Time on the 'stopped' clock prior to the throw-in was :59 ---- after the backcourt violation, time on the clock was :48. I don't believe that it was a "phantom" call.........

LMAO!

I disagree wholeheartedly --- this was the poorest officiated game of the entire tournament. Allowing any team or player to push, pull, or shove to displace an opponent; should not be interpreted as "letting them play". The NFHS rule book is very specific that this type of play should not be allowed. High school basketball should never be a full-body wrestling match, and this is exactly what occurred during this game. (Note that I'm not claiming that it helped or hurt either team.) The Livingston/McMinn Co. game was well-officiated as a direct result of the players. Neither team resorted to the rough play that was so evident during the Shelbyville/Greenville game. And that is a compliment to both teams and their coaching staffs!

The TSSAA Board of Control has just announced that next year's 7-AA District Tournament will be delayed two weeks, and will be played at MTSU's Murphy Center in place of the traditional 'Class AA State Tournment'.

I was at both games... I didn't see what you are claiming to have seen! I was in Murphy Center ---- you must have been in one of the "auxillary" gyms..........

I've found the perfect fan. The guy that can handle all the inperfections the coaches, players and refs dish out and just ignores it. He just watches the game from a distance and ignores all the human mistakes that are made. Of course he's homeless and can't afford to pay admission to attend the game. He's perfect for being a fan. I told him so Saturday. All fans should be homeless. Heyitsme (who told the homeless fan that he was going to post this before I posted it. So don't screaming that I'm picking on homeless people).

Good post, Otis! Add this to the "improvements" list: *If coaches are allowed to 'scratch' officials, allow the officials to 'scratch' coaches...... It would be interesting to see what official and which coach received the most 'scratches' in each specific area of the state. Then we could determine the 'bad' officaials AND the 'bad' coaches.

So few things affect me anymore, but one thing that has always bothered me is the lack of knowledge that some of you have about high school officiating in Tennessee or anywhere else in the country. So let me set the record straight. First, I do not officiate nor do I have the desire to officiate. Second, this information is deprived from talking to h/s officials and their supervisors and gaining first-hand knowledge about their vocation. There's nothing like getting 'accurate' information rather than speaking from 'emotion'. For educational purposes, I'll speak about "averages" knowing full well that there are always positive and negative exceptions to the 'average'. The "average" h/s official will receive 20 assignments @$65 per night (a whopping $1,300.00/year). The "average" h/s official will travel an 'average' of 100 miles round trip for one assignment (2,000 miles per year). The "average" h/s official is required to attend 5 local meetings, plus one 'state' meeting (again averaging 100 miles/meeting for an additional 600 miles/year). The "average" h/s official must attend an officiating camp once every 3 years @ $175 per camp ($58.33 cost per year). The "average" h/s official has to pay 'registration' and 'assigning' fees every year at an 'average' of $100/year. A 'new' h/s official will invest between $200 to $400 the first year to purchase the 'required' uniform and equipment with absolutely no guarantee that they will work the first h/s game. A 'non-first year' "average" h/s official will easily invest over $100/year to keep the uniform/equipment up to date. H/S officials usually are happy to work pre-season scrimmages and jamborees with little or no compensation. About one-fourth of h/s officials must make arrangements with their employers to leave work early to reach their assignments on time. Most "average" h/s officals will sacrifice hours of family time and personal time to complete their officiating assignments. Most "average" h/s officials really do love the game of basketball. So let's add up the numbers using these figures. First, remember that the American Automobile Association and the Internal Revenue Service estimates that it will costs all automobile owners over $.36/mile to operate a vehicle. That cost not only includes fuel, but all items associated with operating a motor vehicle such as, insurance, depreciation, wear and tear, maintenance, etc. 2,600 miles ---- equals $936 actual costs for the "average" h/s official (that's 2,600 miles X $.36/mile). Add the 'annual' cost for camp ($58), dues and fees ($100), maintaining the 'required' equipment/uniform ($100) and the total is $258. Combine this with the vehicle costs of $936 and the grand total is $1,194.00. So, to gain $1300.00 the "average" h/s official will spend $1,194.00, which leaves a balance of $106 to be divided by 20 assignments. Folks, that's about $5.30/assignment. Now, considering that most assignments will last 3 hours, plus the "average" official is required to be at the game site 45 minutes prior to the scheduled start time, and you must include approximately 45 minutes drive time to the assignment along with 45 minute drive time home from the assignment, and the "average" official will have invested 5 1/4 hours of his/hers time. I believe that breaks down to about $1/hour of 'actual' profit for the "average" h/s official. This is the reality of the"average" h/s official in Tennesse and throughout the country. So, how many takers can we get today to join in the basketball officiating ranks? As far as the accountability issue, what kind of monetary penalty can you place on someone that isn't making anything? The bottom line is this: the better officials will receive more games, and the lesser officials will receive less games. That's the basic measure of accountability of the NBA and the NCAA, along with h/s officiating. Personally, I'd love to see the passion concerning 'accountability' that those of you on this website speak of, applied to the things that really matter in our lives such as politicians, public figures, educators, doctors, lawyers, etc. After all, this is just a 'game' that really plays an insignificant role when measured to the important things in our lives.

Gosh, how many times does it have to be said, "the schools DO control what the TSSAA does"! Why is it that is hard for some people to comprehend this fact? The schools vote and elect its peers to the Board of Control and to the Legislative Council. The rules and by-laws are written by the schools, for the schools ---- period! The "TSSAA State Office" is only the administrator of those rules and by-laws. As far as the coaches getting in free to the playoff games, that was abolished several years ago. The reason as I recall, was that there was widespread abuses of the coaches getting into the game, then handing the TSSAA ID Card to someone else outside the stadium(s) so that they could get in free. I can see where dozens of folks could get in free to a game using 'ONE' TSSAA card. The statement about 10,000 people attending a Tennessee High School football playoff game, must remember that there are some games where the actual paid attendance is less than 100 (ie., 2000 semifinal game between Nashville Hillsboro at Memphis East). I would like to know of the playoff games where the paid attendance was over 5,000. I bet those games are few and far inbetween no matter if its the first round, or the semi-final round. For those of you that are concerned about the TSSAA, its finances and its power, I wish that you would place the same 'passion' as it relates to your local and state governments. Not that the TSSAA shouldn't be scrutinized, because it should. But, comparably speaking, The TSSAA is like a piece of bubblegum when it comes to the abuses of your local and state government (and federal gov't, too). And I hate this mindset that a few of you have that the TSSAA owes you something. Its a current social trend I know, where everyone thinks that someone or somebody should pay them for nothing. I may be one of the few that will make this public statement, but I think that the TSSAA does an outstanding job of administering high school athletics in our state.

Southpaw 24--- You fully understand the situation at Warren County. But I'll be more specific --- a former superintendent, and the football boosters club must go before things will change with this football program! And I think you know what I mean..... On another subject, I think Ronnie Brown is originally from McMinnville (played at the old Central), and then played at MTSU. Taught in Smyrna and Lebanon, before moving back home to McMinnville.

It is obvious that people have much hatred toward Ronnie Carter and his staff at the TSSAA state office in Hermitage. But little do they realize what his position is... Carter is only an administrator! Carter administers the policies and by-laws that have been placed by the member schools of the TSSAA. These policies and by-laws were written by the 'Board of Control' and the 'Legislative Counsel' of the TSSAA (not by Ronnie Carter). Carter is only a spokesperson for the member schools and these two elected bodies, and must operate according to their requirements. Members of these two groups are voted into power by its members (the individual schools). So, instead of directing your displeasure at Mr. Carter, go to the actual source ---- your local member school. If you are unhappy with these policies and by-laws, tell your local school's principal. Maybe in the future, when enough people are as unhappy as many of you on this board, maybe there will be changes that will satisfy you. But until then, the bashing of Ronnie Carter reminds me of a story concerning Sadaam Hussein. If Sadaam didn't like what he heard, he shot the messenger. Instead, what he should have done, was to listen to the message, then go to the 'root' of the problem and fix it!!!!!!!!! Same thing here --- Carter is the messenger, and if you don't like what you hear ---- go to the 'root' of the problem!

More than likely, if the principle asked the coach to resign, the 'order' to remove the coach came from member(s) of the school board and/or the director of schools. The principle was only the messenger, in my opinion.

Hmm ..... Let's see how this works. Returning starting QB can't be beat out during Spring practice. Nor does he lose his starting position during August practice. However, after one game, he loses his starting job to a sophmore. Ummmm......... Now mind you, I'll be fair. Warren Co. only had 2 or 3 first downs, and I think that happened in the 4th quarter. So now we'll use a little reasoning ---- poor performance, and you lose your starting position ..... right? Well, what happens when the sophmore QB has a bad game? Who's gonna fill his shoes? And its gonna happen, WC just isn't very good. Here in the next week or so, this offense will look worse than this past weekend. Can anyone i n Warren County admit that there is a little political game being led by a former superintendent, who just so happens to be GRANDPA Paz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STARSNBARS --- LMAO!

If I was coaching --------- I would rate the least experienced official the highest due to the fact that I could probably 'intimidate' that official. If I have a physical team, I'll rate the official that doesn't blow the whistle much as my number 1. On the other hand, if I have a finesse team that isn't physical, I'll rate the official that will blow the whistle as my number 1. Therefore, my rating sheet would be determined by MY style of coaching, NOT the officials ability to officiate. While the 'integrity' of officiating is somewhat important, MY coaching record is MORE important! This, in a nutshell, is why coaches should not 'rate' the officials.

Here's my additional 2 cents worth .... First, you can't let officials from outside the state come and work the state tournament. While on the surface it appears to be an honorable suggestion, but it in the long-run it would probably be devastating. One of the leading motivating factors for high school officials is to have the opportunity to work in the state tournament. Take that goal away, and you'll see a gradual decline in the number of officials, and in turn, a gradual decline in officiating in general. (For those of you that think that it couldn't get any worse, trust me, IT CAN!) Second, and this is strictly for "Knightcourt". After reading your previous two posts in this thread, your 'elitist', self-righteous attitude makes me want to puke! How dare you insinuate that a 'coach' pays the official the game fee? It's absolutely NOT your money that pays the officials -- its the school's money! Actually, its MY money!!! Referees are NOT your employees as you implied, but they are independent contractors. What credentials do you have in officiating, that could tell me that you can make adequate and proper judgement about the quality (or lack of quality) of an official? You probably have the same credentials that I have ------- NONE. Just because you are a 'coach' by title doesn't make you any smarter than any fan or observer when it comes to evaluating officials. You, like most 'elitist', want control, and you'll say anything to achieve it. Additionally, you want 'accountability', well so do I. Officials, as I understand, have a pretty simple plan of accountability in place --- and if you think about it -- it works. Official's organizations as I see it, are basically broken down into 3 distinct sub-groups: 1. those that are good officials 2. those that are bad officials 3. those that are inbetween (average) The ones that are good, usually will receive MORE games, those that are bad, will customarily receive FEW games, and those that are inbetween (average) will receive the average amount of games. So obviously it appears that officials are PAID according to their ability. You work more games, you get more money. You work fewer games, you make less money. On the other hand, are coaches paid in a similar fashion? :confused: Of course not --- they get paid the same amount regardless of their ability, proven or unproven! Yep, bad coaches get paid the same as the good coaches. The coach that gets beat the first game of the District will get paid the same as if he/she had won the state championship, but you want accountabilty for the officials ....... I hope that within your own school and school system, that you are demanding the same type of 'accountability' of the administrators and educators. I hope that within your local and county community that you are demanding the same type of 'accountability' for the politicians, policemen, clergy, etc. These are the people that play the most significant roles in the development of our youth. Are you walking the walk, or are you just talking the talk? For other posters, I apologize for the length of this post. As I stated in an earlier post, I'm NOT an official, nor do I have any desire to become one. I simply love the game on the high school level. But, as you can tell, I hate the crowd that has the 'blame everyone else' syndrome. Former UCLA coach John Wooden once said, "Even on my best nights, 'I' make too many mistakes to worry 'bout someone else's mistakes!" Finally, not all of the 'best' teams make it to the state tournament. I think that we can all agree upon that. But why can't we accept it that not all of the 'best' officials will make it to the state tournament? That's one of the beauties of high school basketball.

The never-ending battle of officiating ........ :confused: I didn't have a team or a kid playing in either state tournament, and I have to say that the officiating was 'reflective' of the play --- some good, some bad, and some fell inbetween. I disagree wholeheartedly with 'CoachSH' idea that the coaches should 'rate' the officials and therefore determine which ones would officiate in the state tournament. That concept becomes a 'personality' contest, rather than an 'ability' contest. Most coaches can't keep their players, fans, and parents happy ..... much less the officials and their organizations. If we used that philosophy and wanted to be consistent, maybe the coaches should let the fans and/or parents determine who will start, who will take the majority of the shots, and what kind of defense that should be used. Before the 'flamers' start accusing me of being an official, let me assure you that I am NOT. I have seen good and bad officials, good and bad coaches, and good and bad players; all of which are a part of high school basketball. Personally, when you consider the rate of pay for coaches and officials, I think that Tennessee has a pretty good product both in girls and boys basketball. On the other hand, I find the officiating in the NCAA as a huge disappointment, especially considering most game fees are $1,000 plus $.50/mile travel fee, and a per diem fee for travel over 250 miles. The only thing that saves them is the fact that the quality of the athlete is so much better. I'd almost wager that a majority of the NCAA officials probably couldn't adequately work a high school game due to the difference in the talent level. I believe that about half of this year's boys' state tournament officials are also NCAA officials. And after reading some of the previous posts, maybe I need to find someone that will take me up on that 'wager'!

I don't think that too many of us can take this article seriously. This 'writer' (and I use the term loosely) has a long history of manipulating sport stories as a venue to degrade high school officials. Unfortunately, Coach Smith probably didn't realize that she was simply used to support his 'blame everyone else' agenda. Doesn't this "Upper Cumberland" writer know that Jackson Co. uses the same regular season and tournament officials that Livingston uses? Doesn't seem like it has affected their success over the past few seasons!

Here's my observation: I have no ties to either school. I drove over 2 hours to watch what I thought would be an outstanding high school boys basketball game ========= and I was NOT disappointed! The game had its peaks and valleys for both teams, AND the game was well officiated from start to finish. Being non-partisan, and not allowing my emotions to play into what I saw during the last few seconds of the game, I thought the conclusion was based on a Hollywood script. It was indeed, a remarkable ending. I looked to the clock immediately after the made basket by Boliver. There was actually over 2 seconds remaining at this time (not counting the 'tenths'). Anyone that says anything different, either didn't 'immediately' look at the clock or you are allowing your emotions to tamper with the reality of what happened. The timeout was called, and the officials met momentarily to verify the time remaining. The adjustment was made, and it appeared that neither coach questioned the 1.1 time that was placed on the clock. I personally thought at that moment that more time should have been placed on the clock, however I'm sure that the officials put the time on the clock to correspond to when the time-out was "recognized". The throwin went to #21 who took a dribble and launched a shot from just inside the half-court line. And the rest is history. There didn't appear to me to be any controversy with how the game ended as far as any maliceousness with the officials or the clock operator. It was one of those games that will be remembered by everyone in attendance as "one of the greatest games ever played". I would love to see a rematch.

Indeed, this was one of the best high school games that I have seen. The 'controversial' foul toward the end of the game is really insignificant in my opinion. Had it not been called, then Portland fans would have been on this site complaining about a 'no-call'. From my vantage point, it appeared to be a 'foul', but conversely, I doubt that the official would have called that contact in the middle of the 3rd quarter. It was probably a 'darned if you call it', or a 'darned if you don't call it' situation. Two plays that I thought impacted the game more so than the last-second foul was the missed opportunity by York at the end of the 3rd quarter that allowed Portland an easy basket as the quarter ended (4-point turnaround), and the missed front-end of a 1 and 1 with less than two minutes in regulation by a York kid. Regardless, this was a fun game to watch! The Tate kid from York and the tall, thin kid from Portland, have extra ordinary talent and were really exciting to watch. Does anyone know if they are being recruited by any colleges????

Two Things: 1. These refs have been having a meeting prior to each night at the 'Burger King' and are plotting how they are going to cheat the teams from 8A. I accidentally overheard them last night while they were deciding who would win and by how much. Fortunately, my 'bookie' took the bet and now I'm $5,000 richer..... 2. And if you, "alsoaref", is really a ref, then you know that it is a Cardinal sin of officiating to publically criticize a fellow official. With that said, could it be that maybe, just maybe, the 7A teams are better and yet you refuse to accept it? :confused: