TheGreatLineJudge

No.

 

Strike still looms. Day 4.

TSG, enough with your empty banter, please. Save your breath for real topics - like volleyball.

By the way, neither I nor P4K dumped the topic you are protesting so publicly. But if this waste of space continues, I will gladly start giving you something to strike about.

Same subject with a twist.... The ref blows the whistle and signals for the player to serve. Before the player tosses the ball in the air to serve, she realizes it is not her turn to serve and the the coach calls for a time out. After the time out, the ref awards the opposing team the serve anyway. When asked why, she replies that once she has motioned for the player serve (even if it is the wrong player) play has started and time-out cannot correct the out-of-rotation. I vehemntly disagree with the ref's decision. Was it correct?

This type of scenario has been discussed in Nashville local meetings.

First, as soon as the referee beckons for serve, nothing else may take place. Time outs, substitutions, etc. are off the table.

Second, if it's the wrong player, one of three things had better be taking place (all legal):

-a. the wrong server and correct server had better be switching out, getting in correct position, and a successful serve execution take place;

-b. the above, except the correct server tosses for reserve

-c. here's the twist: the incorrect server may toss the ball for a re-serve, the correct server take the ball (no rush, just normal course of business), and then the correct server executes service.

Why is 'c' legal?

-The "wrong server" is not an illegal service until service contact is made (resounding theme: moment of contact);

-Re-serves apply to either one per player, per rotation or one per position, per rotation (going to have to check my rule book); either way, even the incorrect server in question may utilize the re-serve action to get out of the situation

My two questions back to you, Spekt8or: Was the time-out recognized? Did the server's 5 seconds expire?

After I have that, I will elaborate further.

P4K, I'm sorry to learn that one of my colleagues misled you.

Player positions, for the sake of determining a legal or illegal alignment, may only be determined at the moment of contact. Plain and simple, a girl may do cartwheels after the whistle is blown, provided she is placed correctly on the court in proportion to her corresponding players.

I'll go into detail when it's not so late.

Another myth busted: it is NOT illegal for the server to step on the service line. It is, however, illegal to step on the line at the moment of contact.

Same principle: moment of contact.

This is the worst possible intersection of politics and "public interest" that is supposed to be served. If this threat is carried out, those truly responsible need to be figuratively taken out back and shot. Whoever they are, whatever the reason, this kind of political poker doesn't belong in youth sports.

Pathetic.

Well if this is true that there are no rankings how can newspapers report that #1 team playing #4 team etc? Is it just the sportswriters opinions at the newspaper?

That would be my opinion. I believe in years gone by, papers such as the one in Chattanooga would publish a city ranking list and then write pieces about #2 Team A loses to #5 Team B, etc. The Tennessean offered a list of pre-season "rankings", but I don't know of that paper referring to team ranks in its articles.

I know of none. Even if such a poll did exist, I'm not sure how valid it would be. Consider:

-Few people, if any, see every single "top" school every single week... polls aren't valid unless you're comparing all relevant teams each individual week

-Some classes are rather spread out in a relevant area. Division II Small and A-AA come to mind. AAA tends to cluster, as does Division II Large.

-For that matter, are you looking for a "one class" type of poll or an individual class? Each carries its own peculiarities in even attempting to get it right.

Maybe 3rd time is the charm and I will get this in the right spot. /blink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blink:" border="0" alt="blink.gif" />

 

Having mistakenly posted this on another section of the forum, hopefully this will be the right spot.

 

I am new enough to High School Volleyball that some of the calls and rules still need some explanation. One that comes to mind is a player playing "over the net."

 

At matches I watched last night, a coach from one of the teams was mildly complaining about players who played "over the net" and there was no call. What exactly does that mean? I thought that a player could hit a ball as it came over the net. I did get a reply that stated the ball must break the plane of the net before it can be played as well as you can't interfere with a ball being set. If a setter sets the ball close enough to the net, can it be attacked before or as it breaks the plane? Help, please!

A couple of things to consider when looking at a play at the net:

Attacking

Attacking the ball when it is completely on the other side of the net (translation/criteria: the edge of the ball has not yet become even with the net) is NEVER legal. Ever. Even after the other team has had their third hit. ATTACKING is not the same as BLOCKING.

Blocking

Any ball that is in the plane of the net, even so much as the edge of it, is anyone's ball. It may be blocked or attacked by any player.

Blocking the ball, even when it is completely on the other side of the net, is legal in two circumstances:

1. The third contact has already been made by the other team; OR

2. The ball is falling near the net and no one from the other team appears to be able/willing to play it.

Once again, this is a judgment call.

However, a blocker may not interfere with play on the other side of the net. What's interference, you ask? The blocker takes care of business when:

1. The ball is falling near the net AND another player is running towards it to play the ball or is presently attempting to play (let's be clear... "running towards the ball" is not coming from the opposite corner of the court... they have to have a legitimate chance to make it over there); OR

2. The ball is in the midst of play. (Common example: the setter is attempting to set it towards her teammate).

What's the difference in a block and an attack? In layman's terms:

Block: Hands are stationary, generally flat and straight in the air or slanted over the opposite court (which is legal). The hands stay stationary throughout the course of a block or potential block; you do not see the hand/arm moving in a forward motion in the traditional concept of a volleyball "kill".

Attack: An expediting of the ball's forward motion towards the floor of the opposite court.

Forgive me for getting a bit cute towards the end, but there's a primer on over-the-net play.

Fantastic! Taylor is a most polite young lady and a good player to boot. Congrats and well wishes.

Heck, GLJ almost gave me a yellow card one time when I was calling lines!!

 

GLJ, in all seriousness and without having to name names, how about sharing some of your better "yellow card" stories??

VBD, you were always a good boy when your team was in the gym.

I'm straining to think of a truly memorable yellow story.. most of them aren't worth remembering because they're supposed to be minor.

I have never issued a red card in a high school match, but I did give one to a very deserving out of state club coach - call him "Coach A". This guy had been jawing at me left and right, about calls he wanted or didn't want called. Typical stuff. He finally gave me a bit too much lip service and I gave him a card. (Remember: under USAV rules, a yellow card is a point and no further penalty; red card is dismissal for the SET - not match - and no further penalty) The other team got their point and we moved on.

Maybe a few points later, he called a time out and came halfway across the court and started berating me. Starts saying stuff like he's an official in his home state and he knows people and stupid stuff. I said back, "IF YOU DON'T COOL IT, I'M GONNA THROW YOU OUT!" He kinda backed off a bit and went back to... coaching! We get to the deciding game and the tensions were high. (I found out later that the winner of the watch got to advance to the gold bracket and the loser stayed in silver.) Around the 7th or 8th point, I called the ball down or some other routine call and I noticed the young R2 had the other team's player in the net. I didn't see it before I blew my whistle, so I called the R2 over to discuss it. Before she made it over to me, Coach A started unloading on my JUNIOR R2. At that point, a major line had been crossed and it was time to go. I whipped out a red card and sent the guy on his way.. before the R2 told me what happened and Coach A earned the point from the play. He was too caught up in his own self to realize she was actually helping him out.

Courtesy takes you a long way!

Yellow card - minor unsporting conduct - warning only - mainly for stupid stuff... flapping your gums at the referee, being a little too animated, excessive bellyaching, etc. etc. Nothing that YOUR coach or players have ever done!

A yellow is no big deal. There's no direct penalty involved.

Red card - second minor or first major unsporting conduct - point to the other side and next serve - mainly for more stupid stuff or a first real no-no... telling the referee he's an idiot or that even your dead grandmother knows what really happened... talking serious trash across the net... ridiculous, unwarranted outbursts... or a secondary of the above listed dumb things that people do.

Red AND Yellow - third minor, second major, or first flagrant conduct - point/next serve to the other side and ejection from the match... you gotta cook up something pretty ugly to get ketchup and mustard together! Use your imagination and then supersize it to warrant this kind of response.

Note: You don't necessarily have to have received a warning before any of these actions take place. If the situation warrants, an official may go straight to an ejection.

Generally speaking, you receive a verbal warning (though this technically is the same as a yellow card) about what not to do.

Tim King once had a coach award him a "blue card" (made from a scratch piece of paper and blue Sharpie scribbles) during a college match. The coach in question was being dismantled and he was frustrated. He flapped his thoughtless gums and earned a yellow. Coach creates said blue card and mimicked Tim's yellow card motion. As Tim said to me later, "He said to me 'Blue card!'; so I pulled out the other color and said 'Red card!' " Tim then blew the whistle, crossed his arms across his chest, and ended the match (the red was match point).

Moral of the story: don't try to blue card an official.

However, you may ask for a clarification of why a call wasn't made. A few years ago at state, BB waved his hands at me and inquired (from Murphy Center crowd) as to why a ball he perceived to go over the antenna wasn't out of bounds. I politely signaled that the ball had remained inside the antennae. He never uttered another word. It's the quietest he's ever been!!! /biggrin.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin.gif" /> Ask him next time you see him.

P.S. Officials may not card the crowd or any other non-team member. We may, however, politely eject a rowdy crowd member, though this RARELY happens.

PHargis made a great point on another thread about ball handling and the difference in how it's called across different areas. Knowing how threads always mushroom and morph into matters other than the topic, I'll get ahead of the curve and make my reply here.

West Tennessee and East Tennessee, as far as a I know, have a perception that they are "loose" compared to Middle Tennessee, and conversely, Middle TN is tight compared to the other two. There's several sides to this argument and a lot of different ways to prove each sides viewpoint. I'll throw a few points of contention out there, offer a bit of opinion, and let others throw in their two cents.

I believe that the heart of this controversy can be solved by observing the skill level of the individual player and what level of club ball they are accustomed to. Yes, I brought club into this purposely. Skill level of the player is now directly tied to how much training, as well as level of normal tournament play, that they receive at the club AND high school level.

This same issue is also directly tied to the officiating skill level observed on a regular basis. If a team is in a weak district and their competition is weak, they will likely be called for less (doesn't make the play any less or any more legal) because their competitor is more or less skilled. The referee quality is likely to be lower in such a situation, thus the referee may or may not know to call more or less. Likewise, with club ball (where applicable), if you are on the National team of a top club program and go to high level tournaments on a regular basis, not only are you likely to see strong competition, you will see strong referees, as the referees will be necessary for the playing level. Skilled referees know what to call and what not to call (and when to and when not to call it!) Subsequently, if you play for a non-National team or frequent tournaments that have player-officiated or coach-officiated or parent-officiated arrangements, you may see zero calls or you may see many horrific calls.

Either way you go about it, you will play up to or down to the level of your competition, as well as what you get called for or get away with.

Does this change what is or what should be legal or not legal? Not at all. Consider a general principle of judgment calls:

Match 1: Two strong teams play each other. Expect most errors to be called.

Match 2: One strong team plays one weak team. Expect the strong team's (assumed) few errors to be non-called and the weak team's (assumed) many errors to be called.

Match 3: Two weak teams play each other. Expect most errors to be called.

Why? For the two weak team and the two strong team matches, there is a relative advantage to the other team when an error is non-called. They are of comparable skill level and it is an error that either team could be relatively expected to make. However, with one weak and one strong, the comparative advantage is minimal. The ball handling problems will not pose so great a disadvantage that the strong team suffers when a weak team's double contact is non-called.

That's my opinion on the application of rules to a given situation. This is all relevant to a regular season match or regular season tournament where nothing significant is at stake. However, when you reach a district tournament or better, every non-call is a relative advantage/disadvantage because only the highest scoring team that night is permitted to move on.

May the great debate begin.

As far as the "chair rule" goes, there's been no change from the past. This is not a new rule, per se, rather most likely to be a newfound emphasis from our state office.

From the case book, under Rule 12, Conduct, subheading Bench Conduct:

12.2.7 Situation B The libero for Team B stands stretching behind the team bench whenever she leaves the court. RULING: The second referee directs the coach to have the player to be seated on the bench. COMMENT: Rule 12-2-7 is intended to allow players to warmup in preparation for entry into the contest. It is not appropriate for team members who will be re-entering the contest to continually stand in non-playable area. (Underlining is my own).

Now that you've seen the case book's text and before you start commenting on the JV team and the "players who never play" standing up, remember this:

-The bench is for players, managers, and coaches - all of whom are vital team personnel.

-The bench is not a community hangout for fans and friends of players.

-The team is not limited to player count during the regular season. Beyond regular season play, the team roster is limited to 14 playing members and no more than 6 additional personnel, including the head coach (per TSSAA regs).

But wait! Suzy played in the JV game, but she never plays during varsity. It's cool to stand and watch behind the bench, right? They let us last year!!

Answer 1: She's dressed out. As far as the referee is concerned, she's the star of the team. We can not, nominally, tell the difference in the star setter and star water girl.

Answer 2: If she's not dressed out and she's not a manager or injured player, why is she anywhere near the bench?

There's nothing wrong with having the whole softball or powderpuff football team joining the volleyball players on the bench, if that's what you want to do. Just remember: they can't stand behind the bench and the head coach retains liability for their conduct (aka yellow or red cards for acting out).

Again, it's standard operating procedure and has been for some time. It's become an emphasis point by TSSAA because we so many problems come up when the state tournament arrives. Teams are used to doing as they please and suddenly get nailed with cards when they think they're doing acceptable behavior. (Anyone remember Franklin's coach getting red carded in 2006 for the bench rolling around on the ground after a point? I thought the player's behavior was innocent and the punishment overzealous .)

================================================

To answer your question about double contacts off a set, the criteria are fairly simple:

I am watching the setter's hands and looking to see if the hands come apart, one moves upward ahead of the other, simultaneous contact, etc. These are all causes of an illegal double contact.

Application, though, is always the fun part. Quite frankly, it's a judgment call every time. There's knowing what to look for and then there's knowing you've found it.

Just a reminder:

-Double contact on the first ball, as long as it's all in a single deliberate attempt, is LEGAL.

Examples, though by no means conclusive:

---This would be something like an "ugly" overhead set as first touch;

---The ball hitting the left arm and then right arm immediately.

Hope those help!

Think of it as a return to the good ol' days.

My favorite thing to do on the boards, for the longest time, was to take the rulebook and breaking down new or less-understood elements of the game for your reading pleasure. Life without deep thought can be pretty boring sometimes.

Not long ago, someone reminded me that I love the game too much to be away from it; he was right. Between work and LU home matches, I'm going to try to make it out to some of our marquee tournaments this year. Speaking of LU, I'm hoping to see "a few good men" on the opposite corner, namely of traveling-partner fame. /wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />

Like Mike said in a two word press release: "I'm back."

Without further ado, start firing some bullets! PHargis, the first shot is yours.

Well said, OS! Ever taken an interest in officiating?!

Not the kind of topic that stays open too long.

Congrats to a deserving crew of players, strong coaches, and the parents who tirelessly support their kids. Definitely a TEAM effort! /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Guys,

It's been a long, fun ride. The first time I ever heard about CoachT, I was at Lewis County HS doing lines at the district tournament in October 2003. I sat in a corner on break and overheard one of the coaches talking about what the Page players had been "saying" on the site (back when Page dominated the world in A-AA!) My curiosity was in full force when I hopped on and discovered the message board you're reading now. I became moderator two months later and continue to be so to this day.

I started officiating when I was 18, fresh out of high school. Fall of my senior year was comprised of pretty much nothing but volleyball in the afternoons and evenings, when I did lines for the school team and sometimes went to practice. It was a non-TSSAA school at the time... the head coach who got me into our beloved sport is now head coach at a major AAA school in Middle Tennessee.

I entered the officiating fray and had what everyone else gets - middle school. I begged and pleaded to get into the state tournament that first year - fortunately, Marsha Goodwin "took a chance" on me to do line judging. My travels ended up bringing me to Murfreesboro five straight Octobers, always as a line judge. After a couple of years in the Columbia area, I switched to Nashville to coincide with college transfer (and better matches). There, I met up with several officials who I'd seen over the years and improved my knowledge and skill level in the game. Time, patience, and practice allowed me to soak up the game I love and pretty much live and breathe the game in the fall. I was a board member of the local association for four years and had the privilege of training so many new people to the game. In addition to the high school side, I worked most of Lipscomb's home matches over the last four years, becoming the only PAVO Certified Line Judge in the mid-state in 2005. That opened other doors - 2005 Sun Belt and 2005/2006 A-Sun, including the A-Sun championship finals both years.

Finally, and most importantly, I've had a lot of fun. The number of hours spent on the website chatting, debating, dissecting rules, etc. are countless. No telling how much time I've put on courts all over middle Tennessee line judging, working up, working down, scorekeeping. More so than all of that, I've been privileged to meet several of you and share time talking about all things volleyball and many things non-volleyball. So to the many of you I've met, eaten with, been yelled at by (COWBOYS UP!!), been liked and disliked by, called for, called against, been both hero and villain to (whether you know it was me or not), I thank you.

Thanks to both politics and that thing we call "life", my high school career is more or less over. I'll be seeing some of you on a club court and maybe collegiate court sometime soon, with any luck.

Play4keeps has done a fantastic job as moderator in the last year. She should be considered the primary moderator on this forum. "Team mom" will be taking good care of you.

I hope I've been half as good to volleyball as it has been to me. It's someone else's turn to be an ambassador to the sport. Thanks for the memories, ya'll. TGLJ

In the last couple of years, the officials and line judges were solicited for input on all-tournament selections at state. FYI.

My turn

 

1) Girls Prep School -Chattanooga

2) Brentwood -Williamson County/Nashville area

3) Ooltewah -Chattanooga area

4) Father Ryan -Nashville

5) Hutchinson -Memphis

6) Centennial -Williamson County/Nashville area

7) Greenbrier -Nashville area

8) Dobynns-Bennet -Kingsport/Knoxville area

9) Ravenwood -Williamson County/Nashville area

10) Science Hill -Johnson City/Knoxville area

 

Not sure where Harding would fall into the mix, as I know nothing about them except they're from Memphis

 

Franklin, Independence, Page, Anderson Co., (Knoxville) Catholic, and Hillsboro could be in the top 20

 

But of course the results could be drastically different depending on who was playing well that day.

 

I'm basing this on

 

1) Performance at State

2) Seasonal match results

3) Best top-level performance on a certain day

4) Consistency within the individual games

 

By the way that was for this past season, not next year...we'll get to that

Harding can hang with all the other state champions from this season - indeed, a worthy 4 teams. How they stack for next year is an unknown to me.. don't know enough about their senior class and underclassmen. All I know is that when I saw them in the regular season, they were playing exceptional volleyball. Should be a (the?) major DII-A power for years.

Is the club forum separate from the regular volleyball forum? I think they should be combined. Seems better to keep the volleyball community intact on one forum rather than have them split up. But either way I'll have to visit /blush.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":blush:" border="0" alt="blush.gif" />

They are not directly affiliated. The age groups are the same, but the authoritative bodies are different and separate (thankfully).

I will say one thing and leave it at that: I have been EXTREMELY disappointed with officiating quality in the last 3ish years. There's been a lot of people who don't know the sport very well calling the matches that count most. I'm stepping off my soapbox before I even step on.

You knew it was coming. My personal picks:

AAA: Brentwood

A/AA: Greenbrier

Division II-AA: Father Ryan

Division II-A: Harding (not even close)

Bring 'em!

My advice: soak up the experience and just enjoy it. There's nothing like the state tournament. Have your "shock and awe" of being there out before your first match. I've seen way too many newcomer teams forget how to play volleyball. Don't fear the competition - just play YOUR game.

And yes, enjoy Toots. It's a personal favorite /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />

Also noticed that they have gone back to playing the Championship matches on 2 courts at the same time instead of 1 Main court, as they did last year.

Unbelievable! Can we get a single standard from year to year?

In the first semifinal, DCA beat Lipscomb 3-1 losing game #2

In the second semifinal, Goodpasture beat Ezell Harding 3-1 losing game #3

 

DCA beat Goodpasture 3-1 losing game #3 to win District.

 

So both Goodpasture and DCA advance to sectionals/regionals (whatever you call it) next Tuesday at DCA.

Districts -> Regions -> Sections -> State /smile.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile.gif" />