mocs2011

Tough question. I vote Cleveland duals as the toughest in-season high school tournament in TN, though not by too much over the McCallie Invitational. Both had Soddy, Cleveland, McCallie and Pope (GA) attending. Cleveland duals you add Science Hill, Independence, Thompson (AL), Father Ryan and CBHS, all strong teams. For the McCallie Invitational, the additional strong teams include Heritage (GA) and Baylor. The rest of the top 5 tournaments would be: 3. Fandetti Brawl (Science Hill) - Baylor, Bradley, Father Ryan, Science Hill, and Soddy 4. Pigeon Forge - Jefferson (GA), Heritage (GA), Father Ryan, Gilmer (GA) and Larue (KY) 5. GP West - CBHS, Union County, McCallie, and Brentwood

An intelligent post and I agree with most of what you say especially the class room part. Not sure about the state "cycles". Is the success of Brandon High School in Florida and the wrestlers they are putting out almost every year a cycle? If so, they're in for a deep ice age because the good cycle has been going for an awful long time. I think it is a very strong program with great coaches and support that gets out and challenges themselves at every level. A state is a compilation of those types of programs. Rod Tidwell from the movie, Jerry Maguire "See, that’s the difference between us. You think we’re fighting, and I think we’re finally talkingâ€

I got it, but I was using the college example right back at Sac. He was pointing out there are guys from other countries wrestling. My answer--not many. A much closer tie between college and high school is that the big boys (the haves), whatever you want to call them are in D1 and the smaller schools, less resources and everything else are in different divisions. They also have different eligibility rules which is why I support, D1, D2 and the national prep league at the high school level. Also another great example for Sac, being a youth guy from the West (look at his earlier posts), is the TN AAU does not allow wrestlers from Cali, Jersey, Chicago, etc. to compete in the TN AAU state tournament. There was a big stink last year when some Kentucky wrestlers tried that spilled into this board and other discussions. What's wrong with allowing them in? Bottom line, you have to draw some lines or the City, State, Regional tournaments don't mean anything. Kind of tired of saying this, but the Prep schools should take it to the national level. It would help everyone long term, including themselves and even present a local Chatt option that could wrestle at the Walsh Ironman, Beast of the East, Dvorak, Cheesehead, and even west coast events. Today that option does not exist locally or anywhere in our state. It would level the playing field for D1 and D2 and provide another option, a national prep school option. Seems like a great answer, progressive idea, but there are always those that resist change right down until their company gets outsourced or just fails. These are the same type of people that fight the national duals at the NCAA level. There's another interesting topic. Rod Tidwell from the movie, Jerry Maguire "See, that’s the difference between us. You think we’re fighting, and I think we’re finally talking.â€

Talking to college coaches last year, most identified 2-3 being recruited for D1? I like and respect all of the recent wrestlers you named. They are outstanding young men and good wrestlers, but do not have the same credentials or expectations as the those from 2000-2007. They would tell you that themselves. None won Senior Nationals, was a Senior Nationals finalist, or won Fargo. TN wrestling history - Marable won Fargo in Freestyle as a Cadet. At Mizzou, Marable placed 3rd in the NCAA's as a red-shirt sophomore and placed again as a junior. Leen won the Sr. Nationals in high school. Leen qualified for the NCAA tournament all four years at Cornell and was an All-American in 2007, 2008 and 2009. As a freshman he was the Ivy League Rookie of the Year. My memory is that Simpson made the finals of the Sr Nationals. In college, he was Army's all-time leader in victories with a 134-19 record, including three EIWA Championship titles. He qualifed for the NCAA tournament all four years, a three time NCAA all-american, including making the finals in 2005. These three were awesome wrestlers at the high school and college levels. Maybe we were just lucky as a State back then, but we have not had programs turning out prospects like this in the last 5 years. Croy, a two time Fargo placer, seems like our best hope right now for having another NCAA D1 All American in the next couple of years. Anyone else? Watson will be a freshman and Hooker is at the Naval Prep school.

I guess they don't need Division 2, Division 3, NAIA or NJCAA either, huh? Rod Tidwell from the movie, Jerry Maguire "See, that’s the difference between us. You think we’re fighting, and I think we’re finally talking.â€

The period 2000-2007 had Leen, Marable, Simpson, Keller and Cleveland all TN high school guys that placed D1 in the NCAA's. Also Raymond Dunning had a very strong NCAA Division 2 career. There were also other guys that wrestled NCAA D1 from this same period, such as Whitt Dunning, Manson, and Manley with a couple of these guys being NCAA D1 qualifiers. You could also throw in McCroskey, Johnson, Wright and other NCAA qualifiers towards the tail end of that period. This group was also very accomplished on the high school level, Fargo champion, Sr. National champ, Sr. Nationals finalist. Add Kyle James, another Fargo placer. Probably forgetting a few. There were some great TN wrestlers to watch during this period. After 2007, just don't see the same number of TN high school wrestlers graduating with those credentials or potential. Croy may get there, Watson, Baker, Hooker and a few others? The State has not been turning out as many wrestlers that are having success at the next level or seem to have that potential. It could just be a slump, but it seems headed in the wrong direction. I agree that the TN AAU youth org is getting stronger and its the right place to start, but suggest other changes at the high school level as well.

Hate? No, actually respect the "boarders" quite a bit for their academics, facilities, alumni and other things, but in wrestling I want them to be better than they are. Go be a top level prep school. The current rules giving them a leg up on other TN schools has just built a system that rewards our "boarders" for mediocrity (compared to similar national prep schools). Jealous, yes, of wrestling fans in New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvannia and other places where they get to watch some of the top programs in the country. I have to drive to Collins Hill High School or hope that someone comes in for the Cleveland duals to find a top 50 program to watch. Let's change the topic a little and I think this gets to the same place. Who thinks the level of wrestling in Chattanooga has gotten better over the last 10-15 years? Other places in the state? Are our wrestlers and teams doing better or worse on the national level? If the answer is "no" we are worse off, which I believe is correct, then it is time for a change. Seems I have heard that slogan recently related to 4-years and politics? The old "let just buckle down and work harder" in the current system doesn't seem to be cutting it. Our TN high school state tournaments need to be tougher and there needs to be some TN national prep teams being successful on the national level. What productive changes do others propose?

No, I suggest wrestling against the boarding schools during the season. Some of the best competition you'll find for your wrestlers in TN. Also wrestle against Collins Hill, Pope and others in Georgia. When it comes to the state tournament, a wrestler from TN should not compete against an imported guy whose parents still live in California or New Jersey. A better question is why would the local Chatt boarding schools want to wrestle primarily against local competition or at the TN state tournament? Are either of our Chattanooga boarding schools ranked in the Top 50 nationally? Its not impossible, a school from the West side of the state did it this past year. That's embarrassing. We really need a shake up in the Chatt wrestling community and changing the rules, making our boarding schools act like national prep schools would help. Hopefully, the State will push these schools to conform to the rules, no special exceptions, they'll leave, step up their game and Chattanooga will get two national level wrestling programs. Selfishly, I will get to watch better competition without driving more than 30 minutes and will enjoy every second!

Great examples! The realities that made other states push the boarding schools out of their high school associations. We have a STATE tournament not a national tournament. Cupcake has a good story above, but unfortunately the reasons provided are not the most common cause of high school transfers. I also attended multiple high schools, public and private, but that's just one person's experiences and opinion. Many times a young man develops more character by sticking it out and finishing where they started, versus going to the highest bidder after experiencing a little success. Due to the money involved you see alot of this in high school basketball, some in football, and based on my experience as many young man are ruined as helped by transfering from their original high school where they were experiencing success. Per the parents, the athlete was not playing the right position, getting the ball handed to them enough, getting enough national exposure, we have all seen this. You could make a long list of these situations and often the athletes did not even want to make the change and ultimately suffers. Sommers appears to be trying to distract from the topic by claiming someone wants 5 divisions. No, two are more than sufficient, one would be better, just get rid of the boarders that are doing their own thing like getting athletes from other countries...lol. Calling for rules that are equal for all. No special rules for certain schools--that's the American way!

The idea of putting D1 and D2 together works. just boot the boarding schools first. If I recall, they were a big part of the split to start off with. Let them improve and go compete with Blair and other boarding schools that have appropriately been shown the curb by their state high school organizations.

Yes, but not everyone can attract from all over the state and region because their not boarding schools. Also no one else can go recruit someone else's state champions from last year other than the boarding schools and put them right on the mat. Yes, great programs attract good wrestlers, fine, but the parents have to be in their school district or move close enough to drive them everyday. The boarders get them from other cities, hundreds of miles away and from other states. No comparison. And, yes, the boarding schools even have students that parents are in other countries. They aren't wrestlers, but do attend these schools. How silly does it have to get? Sorry, if the bubbles bursting, but in no way is it a fair contest or level playing field. That is the same conclusion that many other states have come to. The real question is knowing this and wanting to "seek out the best competition", why haven't they taken it to the prep nationals? Because they would not be successful? They really aren't preparing their wrestlers for D1 colleges by hanging around wrestling TN public and non-boarding schools? A very small percentage of their seniors are being successful at a national level. If I were paying that much, I would want more. Slingshot has it right above. Every wrestler you named, their parents live within the school district that they compete within. Not the case for Holloway, Hayes brothers, Robinson, Dendy, Brunner, Bell, Hussein and on and on. You have to respect Baylor as an outstanding school, but the TSSAA needs to take away their unfair recruiting rule and until they get out and compete against the big boarding schools, its kind of hollow.

Read Maj's post above, he lived the difference between public and private and I believe on average that is the truth. Having been around the red and blue campuses often, it is better academics, facilities, athletics, fan support, contacts for the future, the whole package. They are not in the same league with the rest of us and should not be in the same state org. I don't know why we have to give them an advantage. Seems like they already have plenty.

Wow, this is getting kind of interesting. A guest house? Actually one of Michael's parents would also have to move into the guest house with him in Memphis to be eligible. However, if he moved from Memphis to Chatt and attended a boarding school, a parent does not have to room with him.

Moving on a little, there were some big changes this off-season in some of the top TN high school programs, should be very interesting to see the impact on these programs. Probably more movement than in many prior years. Cleveland new head coach Soddy new head coach Clarksville new head coach McCallie added Cody Cleveland, correct? MBA added another Simpson?

Ha..ha...is that before or after that check gets deposited monthly in their parent's bank account? Just having fun. I know one of the parents very well who's son was from a different part of TN, won a state title, and went to one of the boarding schools here in Chatt, won't say which one to protect the innocent. They paid a small portion of the bill.

I think Trublu2 addressed that above, there is a separate rule if you leave a TSSAA school for disciplinary or athletic reasons within the past 12 months that will be applied to Tate Robinson. Its the school that you leave which has to provide something to the TSSAA saying that you did not leave for those reasons. If you live with your parents in Tullahoma or Birmingham and then go to a boarding school, your parents have not moved, they are still your legal guardians and that is still your home. So you should wait a year, just like any other wrestler that transferred from Hixson to Cleveland without his parents moving. Fair and balanced

And the sweater vested guy in Ohio had no idea what was going on in his program, right? Why are some people the last to know! We have been watching this in Chatt for years. No it is not the coaches, though they generally do know who is good and which of their parents have contact with other parents. Baylor is a fantastic school, but needs to either up their game and go compete against similar schools or at a minimum the TSSAA needs to curb the potential recruiting by making the transfer rules the same for all schools. Maj wants open boundaries, not sure I agree with this as the recruiting by all schools could them get pretty out of hand, but at least that would be equally open. The red has had success competing against TN public schools and other non-boarding private schools, but agreeing with nashwresting, the success is really not as impressive given the advantages and their regional recruiting. What would be more impressive would be seeing one of our local Chatt boarding schools beat others in a similar status such as Blair, Wyoming Seminary, and the McDonough School.

youthcoach16, stop trying to get people to believe these schools do not recruit. I have spoken with their coaches and watched their alumni, parents and wrestlers openly recruit at Chatt middle school tournaments for decades. As taketop said above, this is the insulting part that they deny it. Be what you are a "PREP BOARDING" school. The only silly thing is that the TSSAA has not given them the boot like the OHSAA and many other progressive states. You want to be a prep school, bring in talent from all over the region and then compete against those who don't? Hope this gives you some great sense of accomplishment--which was nashwrestling's original point. Why doesn't UT schedule 10 football games every year with D3 schools? They don't have the same number of scholarships, the same rules, and the same support levels. thepaw is great above also, those D3 schools just need to be quiet and work harder. NO, there are classifications of schools in high school and college that are there for a reason. If you're in the same division you should have the same rules applied and currently that is not the case.

I will give an "Amen" to the above. texas23, plenty of schools are complaining. Actually a proposal last year was approved in every region but one to change the rule and require students transferring to a boarding school to be ineligible for a year just like they transferred to Soddy, Cleveland, Science Hill, MBA or any other school unless their parents moved. This would help level the playing field between the boarding prep schools and discourage them from recruiting and giving funds to last years public or private school state champions. Bradley did not wrestle these guys for years because they did not want their wrestlers stolen, this rule makes it less likely, would actually encourage competition and reduce the need for the prep boarding schools to totally leave, though its probably just a matter of time before that happens anyway. Trublu2--things are going to change, but the TN state wrestling tournament will likely always continue to be exciting for wrestling fans! Also you mentioned that something about not having to sit out due to changing divisions. I checked the handbook last night and could not find anything like that.

Yeah, I have heard that before--so what? It was pretty obvious that he was an incredible athlete with a ton of potential. Also I believe he had a brother that was a successful wrestler in another state.

Lol, keep drinking that red kool-aid. I have watched the Baylor parents, alumni and boosters make the rounds at our local middle school tournaments and encourage wrestlers (some local, some not) to consider Baylor. Its all about recruiting and "yes" I have even gotten that from discussions with one of their past coaches. I really don't have a problem with it and cannot blame parents or wrestlers for choosing a great school. The problem I have is fans like you that don't think this is the case and believe the playing field is level. Also the rest of us that sit here in east TN and take it. Blair Academy is one of the nation's top teams and they are looking for the best talent in the nation to wrestle at the National Prep Tournament. Don't hide it, just admit it and take your game to that level. For the rest of us, not paying $40k plus a year in tuition/boarding (likely because no offered to pay it for us), let us compete in the TN state against TN wrestlers, not guys whose parents and families still live in GA or other states. Those are the rules in NJ, OH and many other states.

Its one year of eligibility because those are the rule that everyone else lives by. Otherwise, you get what we have, where one school recruits/buys wrestlers from other programs. If those wrestlers wanted to be at Baylor decide that as 7th or 8th graders otherwise like everyone else, you should be ineligible for a year.

Haha...and Jed Hussein (GA), Mike Bell (AL), Chance and Cole Hayes (Knoxville), Brandon Brunner (Tullahoma), this list could go on for a long time. Several of these guys had already placed or won state before transfering to Baylor. Several were national level middle school wrestlers from other areas of the state before deciding on Baylor. Can't knock any of these wrestlers or their parents for the decision they made, but to argue the playing field is level is ridiculous. I agree with nashwrestling, Baylor really may have underperformed considering the advantage that all the rest of us sheep have given them. If Baylor wants to recruit across the state and region and have an unfair advantage due to the transfer rule, go join the National Prep Tournament that Blair has now won like 32 years in a row. See if you can unseat them. That would be an incredible accomplishment.

Let's treat the transfers to Baylor like any other wrestler that transfers from Soddy to Bradley or any other school when the parents have not moved. If they wanted to wrestle at Baylor or any other school they should have enrolled there as a 9th grader. Oh wait, but Baylor wasn't offering a free tuition at that point because the wrestler had not yet won D1 state or placed in GA or AL. It's not "punish" its called "FAIR". Baylor is a great school and I cannot blame any student athlete that decides to better themselves and improve their opportunities in life. That said, there should be a price for transferring schools so that students are not being bought for purely athletic reasons--every state has these types of rules. The odd thing in TN is that the boarding schools can get around them. If you transfer and your parents do not move, you should not be eligible for a year. I have heard several Baylor parents say they wanted to leave the TSSAA and that is probably the right answer. They are a prep school and one of the best in TN, but as long as they are recruiting kids from Knoxville, Tullahoma, Georgia, Alabama, etc. they need to go compete with Blair, Wyoming Seminary and similar boarding schools at the National Prep Tournament.