FargoStrut

Based off past 5 years, Soddy and McCallie are too high while Wilson Central and CBHS are too low. Just look at the finishes. If you're looking at just this year or the next 5 yrs potential, then they should stay there. Good stuff CC2!

1 hour ago, SportsTNFan said:

Does that also include a couple of kids outside their club that are potentially coming from the Cavaliers Wrestling club and boarding next season?

SportsFan, I'm honestly not sure that any kid from Cavaliers Wrestling Club participated in TNAAU this year. I do know that Cookeville Youth Wrestling has a lot of kids and several of them are studs. Those are DEF 2 separate clubs. Ive heard there may be a CYW kid that furthers his education at McCallie but I haven't heard abt a Cavalier kid going there.

JoJo, Jose, Mason, Titus and Ryder are all freshmen 

I would hate to think that Spencer quit bc he didnt win his semis match. He has accomplished WAY too much and fought through alot of adversity to give up and not wrestle it out for 3rd place. However, that same thought did cross my mind as well when I saw/heard he wasn't coming back on Saturday. To be fair, that is easy to do when you dont see an obvious injury, like what happened in the Munoz match. I hope that's not the case, but I guess time will tell. 

On a side note, I think the 2023 tournament was one of, if not the most historic tournament of all-time! You had Yianni become a 4-time champ (only 5th ever), Spencer upset in the semis trying to bc a 4 timer, RBY upset in the finals trying to bc a 3 timer, 2 wrestlers that won their 3rd and now have a chance to bc 4 timers in Starocci and Brooks (Starocci has 2 yrs left and can get to 5) and that's not including O'Toole who just won his 2nd as a true sophomore. I honestly believe that in 20-30 yrs we'll look back at this tournament and say it was one of the most historic tournaments of all-time!

Not sure who was coaching the Oline down there last season but CGR most likely upgraded his staff with this hire. If "Country" can't do anything else, the man knows how to coach up an Oline!

Looks like Askew isn't the only one who has pulled out of the match. Our lineup, especially through the middleweights, looks a little different with some movement in weight classes as well. 

2 hours ago, GruncleD said:

Ethan and Jarvis would be a good match and Lipsey should have been the OW.

Here are a few facts... I said earlier that I thought either Desselle and Brenot (listed lightest to heaviest) should have won OW. I went back and looked at Lipsey's, Desselle's and Brenot's matches by round. 

132- LIPSEY

Rd 1- Pinned a blood round wrestler,

Quarters- Majored a blood round wrestler (returning medalist)

Semis- Teched 6th place finisher

Finals- Majored 2nd place wrestler

138- DESSELLE

Rd 1- Teched a blood rd wrestler

Quarters- Pinned a kid that went 1-1 and didnt wrestle the 2nd day (possibly overweight on day 2)

Semis- Majored 3rd place finisher

Finals- Pinned 2nd place wrestler

182- BRENOT

Rd 1- Pinned kid that went 0-2

Quarters- Pinned 4th place wrestler

Semis- Teched 3rd place wrestler

Finals- Majored 2nd place wrestler

Of the 3, only Brenot beat the 2nd, 3rd and 4th place wrestlers in his weight class. I went through the other brackets as well. There are 2 other wrestlers who also beat the 2nd, 3rd and 4th place finishes in their brackets. However, the other 2 where NOWHERE near as dominant as Brenot. Along the way, Symborski escaped with (2) 2-1 victories including his finals match while Noah Todd had an overtime match, (2) 8-3 victories and an 11-2 major against a freshman 182 who has to weigh in wearing ankle weights to qualify for 220. With all this said, whomever votes for the OW got this one right!

Personally, I thought there were 2 obvious choices for OW in D1-AA, 1) Desselle and 2) Brenot in no particular order. No gripes here with giving it to the senior in this case. Both guys dominated the competition in their respective weight classes. 

Why no love for Brenot??? He actually DID beat Alvazez at Who's #1! Granted it was preseason and abt 5 months ago but a win is a win... guess the real matchups have zero bearing on our "fantasy matchups".

I was watching the boys but was curious how those that follow and were watching the girls wrestle felt about 132lb championship match. Obviously it was ruled illegal, so I guess my question is...how egregious was it? Was it illegal 20 yrs ago or considered "good hard wrestling"? 

11 hours ago, Humpy42 said:

Don’t act like you’re going to go talk to Coach Brooks. 

Humpy, easy on ERgrad. We all know he's been a faithful follower of ER football for the past 30+ years. If you have the clout and can somehow arrange a meeting with Coach Brooks, I'll personally call Margaret and see if she'll let her old man have a sit down with Coach Brooks. If she says that he's allowed to go, then I'll stop by his house, pick him up and bring him to the meeting. I'm sure both ERgrad and Coach Brooks will both appreciate it IF you are somehow able to pull this off. 

1 minute ago, Bump11 said:

just kidding. track now says Brenot won. seems they made a mistake. 

Yeah, that's more like it. My first thought was NO WAY, scorekeepers got their Aidens switched.  Abt 10 seconds later, I thought if it were true, it would be one of the biggest upsets EVER in TSSAA history.

Smalling over Bouma does NOT belong here!

22 minutes ago, Bump11 said:

I’m gonna go ahead and apologize. I totally forgot the tournament started tomorrow and i now realize i started these way too late. I will do everything i can to atleast get predictions for each weight, but i don’t think i will have the time to go in-depth. I’m sorry y’all. 

All good Bumpy, we wont mind if you stay up all night giving great insight and making projections for the next 10 weight classes.  In all seriousness, it's good stuff and I enjoy reading them. Great work!!!

3 minutes ago, cobrakid8 said:

well, it was still kind of on topic, especially when you said you don't think the late 90's and early 2000's teams could beat any of the late teams. I mean some of these guys did great in high school and led their teams and went to college and did nothing of substance. Boykin has done good in olympic type wrestling but has been average at best in college, marable did really well, Oliver was a multi time qualifier(he was the one i was trying to remember) but all of those guys are private that have done anything in college (i mean our only AA's i think have been private school guys)  but from the late 90's early 2000's none of our public school kids have done as well as Ward, Blackmon, McTorry, McCarty, McKnight, Keller. Dang we had a lot of Mc guys that were good lol. So I'm not so sure TN wrestling has taken the step everyone keeps saying it has so I do think those 90 and 2000 teams would very much hold their own against any of the teams from the past 15 years just because i think wrestling was deeper back in those days compared to where it is now. Of course i do hope that we have some AA's and future champs coming out of these wrestlers now with Cody Chittum, Hunter Mason with Va Tech next year and a few others out there. Hopefully the future is as bright as it looks with TN wrestling!

I think there was a misinterpretation along the way. I'm saying the public teams before the split had a tougher time at team duals and individual state due to having to contend with the private schools. Sounds like we're in agreement there. I was saying that I think the elite teams (not elite wrestlers) from the 60's and 70's would get taken behind the woodshed by teams in later years (late 90's and early 2000's). 

You mentioned a few kids who could have great careers post HS. As you previously stated, there are others as well attending VT, USMA, UTC in addition to other universities.  

26 minutes ago, cobrakid8 said:

How many all-Americans in the bunch since the early 2000 kids? I’m trying to remember when the guys from Christian Brothers graduated and went into college and did very well also, I don’t think we have had an TN All-American in the past 10-15 years. 
 

was Marable 2008 and 2009 the last? That’s about to be 14 years ago.

Cant think of any AA's of the top of my head since Marable but both Boykins, Oliver, Hooker are a few of the guys who had varying degrees of success whether it was NCAA'S or in FS/GR. I'm sure there are others I cant think of at this moment. Hopefully Brayden Palmer will be able to end our AA drought this season. Now we need to get back on topic.

2 hours ago, cobrakid8 said:

Funny thing is one of those “holes” was Bryant Blackmon and he placed 2nd the following year and we know how good his older brother was lol. 
 

The thing is back at that time (96 and 97 Overton the privates and public’s were together) the teams Cleveland or bradley have put together since never had that issue as they for most part didn’t wrestle them especially for a state title. So they had the chance to prove they were the best overall unlike those now. And yes maybe these teams later on would beat a really good team from back in the day, but I will say the wrestlers in the past 10 years haven’t proven to be as good as the past unless every other state has also passed us because we have had Leen, Simpson, Blackmon, Ward, Mctorry  and a couple of others from the 90’s and early 2000’s go to college and actually do pretty well, while we haven’t had one do that from these latest crops at all. So yes, the added diets, weights and everything else has maybe helped out wrestling as a whole, but it hasn’t done much for TN wrestling on the national stage at all. I’m really hoping some of these latest studs can go out and do what some of those prior studs did. Wished all the kids this weekend luck and those moving on after this weekend enjoy and savor it, I still miss that final day of TN state tourney!

Yeah, def would NOT consider Blackmon as a "hole" in the lineup. It had to elsewhere. Not sure where they were, but when he's added to the mix, it makes the holes even more glaring for a dual. Obviously Soddy that yr was a very good team as well and were a deeper team from top to bottom, but it's almost unbelievable that a team with 5 state champs, 3 other top 4 placers and a guy that was runner-up the following year didnt win the TN public school duals championship! 

We've had a few guys after the ones mentioned do fairly well at the next level. Also  do believe that a few kids who have graduated in the past couple years and some who will graduate this year or in the next few years will have success on the next level too. 

1 hour ago, cobrakid8 said:

I was only taking the state placers more so than state champs because of course not always are weights built the same, but to have holes in a lineup where someone didnt even qualify for state kind of has a point also. Plus to see some of those kids like on the 96 team were also on the 97 team plus added studs that were mostly better than those that graduated from the 96 team. 

 

Not sure I agree with not competing teamwise, Those early 2000's and late 90's Bradley teams were stacked, that 2002 Bradley team with 5 state champs on it and really no holes in the lineup. I mean it would be hard pressed to beat them as they had Shawn Cordell, Adam Rains, Jake West, Michael Creagan, Matt Keller, Dustin Catlett, Quinn Gibson, Breck Still, they didnt have many holes at all just not sure they were as deep as Overton, but I do think they would have been able to hang with these later years Cleveland and Bradley teams.

 

 

2002 Bradley had 5 state champs, a runner up, a 3rd place and 4th place kid. However, that team lost to Soddy in the team duals that didnt include private schools. This is NO WAY that you have 5 state champs and 3 more top 4 kids and lose a dual against another public school team in TN unless you have MASSIVE holes in your lineup.  Obviously, that team wrecked shop at the individual state tournament. 

To my point about downgrading teams after the splits. Its obviously easier to win an individual championship now than it was 25 yrs ago (more classes = less competition). Not saying those 8 placer wouldnt have placed or the 5 champs wouldnt have won, but I'm fairly certain there were a few blue, red AND purple blooded kids that would have knocked off at least one of those 8 placers somewhere along the way.

19 hours ago, cobrakid8 said:

That 95-96 squad got beat by Baylor who got beat in the finals by Father Ryan. So they wouldn’t be in the conversation of best overall unless we are going will public/private split. That 96-97 team won it overall over Father Ryan after beating Soddy and Jefferson county handily

Cobra, I had a few minutes and did a little research on 96 Overton team that got beat by Baylor in semis. You are absolutely correct that Baylor beat them. However, after looking at the box scores, Overton ABSOLUTELY DID NOT come to wrestle that match. Studs got majors or minors in place of techs and pins, state placers got beat by kids that didnt place, state placers got beat by other placers winners they beat at individuals (50/50 matches) and Eric Jordan (state champ) forfeited his match. All.of that and they only got beat by 7. All Jordan had to do was win (granted Baylor kid got 3rd) and Overton would've faced Ryan who had a bye. Almost like Overton overlooked Baylor AND had some bad luck that day. Sometimes Eli Manning and David Tyree's Giants do beat Tom Brady and Randy Moss' 16-0 Patriots. Why you play the game!

26 minutes ago, cobrakid8 said:

yeah, I graduated in 99 so from 1996-1999 I wrestled with those Overton teams, they just pumped out stud after stud and they were even taking private schools to the woodshed, as far as public schools that would have the deepest lineup and would win a mythical dual meet, that Overton would win to me with Cleveland and Bradley having a few teams that could maybe stack up and give them a run for their money. 

IMO, if you're looking at overall individual state placers when deciding about best dual teams, teams before the public/private split would supersede teams after that split. Even further down the line would be teams with more individual place winners that came after the small/large public split. That being said, I dont know when the cutoff would be, but no way you can compare teams from the 60's to teams from the late 90's, much less today. I know there were teams that were dominate in their own era who had a few guys throughout the lineup who would compete and possibly dominate in any era. However I think with advances in diet, exercise, conditioning, strength, etc; most of the "role players" would get worked by more recent team's "role players". 

I say that to say I don't think any of the elite older teams would compete top to bottom with more recent teams and the Bradley teams of early 2000's and recent Cleveland teams (all after splits) should get a slight downgrade. Those teams were all DOMINANT against who they had to wrestle and its not a knock on any of those EXCEPTIONAL squads, just my opinion.

1 hour ago, cobrakid8 said:

Well, I did go back and put those teams together and I would still contend the 1997 team was better than the 96. 96 team had 8 placers that year with Brewster, Drinkwine, Elzen, Moser, Radford, the Jordan brother Derrick and Eric and Charles Mctorry.  However they also had 1 weight with no qualifier for state and 3 others I think lost their first match and were out and a heavy that placed 2nd the next year. So 2 champs and 2 RU. out of those that did not place only 1 placed in future years, so out of 14 weights they had a total of 9 placers or future placers

 

1997 team had a few more state champs but with only 6 placers. Brewster, Drinkwine, Elzen, both Jordan brother again and William Hadden. They ended with 3 champs and 2 RU, they also had a qualifier at every weight with only 2 that lost 1st round and were out. So out of 14 weights and 6 placers already they had 4 future placers. 

 

So I still think top to bottom the 1997 team is the better team, I mean McTorry can only get you 6 and with future guys on the team in 1997 that were already good but not good enough to place with the likes of Brian Larimer, Ed Clay and Clyde Clemmons you have a VERY solid team with no holes to fill.  This kind of stuff I always get some enjoyment out of. Either of those teams are very solid and stacked from top to bottom, they even won the state individual team titles in both years, but only that 1997 team won the dual title and the individual and the 1996 team that lost to Father Ryan in duals also shows it not to be as strong dual wise because they won the individual 188.5 over Red Bank, Father Ryan who won the duals overall finished 4th with 148 behind Baylor also. Shows the Overton dual team for 1996 had some holes they could not fill.

 

Good stuff Cobra, Thank you for doing the research. I obviously didn't have time to research it, just going off the old "memory bank". I even said my years may be a little off. However, I do REMEMBER that during those few years, the Overton teams that I saw were the best public HS teams I remember seeing in TN, even to this day. Again, thank you for doing the research and you may very well be correct that the 97 team was better than the 96 team. All I know is they were FREAKIN STACKED for a public school!!!

23 minutes ago, LocalHero said:

There’s levels to this. Mason is on a different level. Tune in, it will be a show. Last years medals don’t equal this years success 

Gotta say Pops, sentences 1 and 4 are ABSOLUTE FACTS that everyone SHOULD KNOW! Sentence #2 is a fact that only SOME people know. As I'm unable to foresee the future, I THINK and BELIEVE that you're correct on sentence #3. That being said, I "think" #3 will become a fact on Saturday evening. Good Luck to your boy!

8 hours ago, cobrakid8 said:

But that was the actual question, which is the best ever state dual team ALL divisions, there was no breakdown in the original question. So that is why to me 96-97 has the better claim because they DID win the state duals AND they beat father Ryan to do so. I’ll try and look up tomorrow who all wrestled for each, but the one proves they were the best by defeating all teams including private schools so could lay claim to best state duals team ever all classes combined. 

Cobra, obviously I can read and I understand the stated topic. However, I dont know enough abt the private school teams, especially those before my time, to add my $0.02 to the conversation. This is why I explicitly stated 96 Overton is my top pick for public, even if they didnt win and the 97 team did. Sometimes, it's best to speak on things you know and let others comment on things you dont know as well, even if it only partially addresses the topic or question. 

14 minutes ago, cobrakid8 said:

That 95-96 squad got beat by Baylor who got beat in the finals by Father Ryan. So they wouldn’t be in the conversation of best overall unless we are going will public/private split. That 96-97 team won it overall over Father Ryan after beating Soddy and Jefferson county handily

15 minutes ago, cobrakid8 said:

That 95-96 squad got beat by Baylor who got beat in the finals by Father Ryan. So they wouldn’t be in the conversation of best overall unless we are going will public/private split. That 96-97 team won it overall over Father Ryan after beating Soddy and Jefferson county handily

Cobra, you and I both know there is a difference between public and private. That's why I never mentioned anything about private schools and said that I cant remember any public school that would've wanted any part of the 96 Overton team. Someone else may come up with another public team that was outstanding in their own right, but 96 Overton is the best public school team that I personally remember seeing, even to this day. 

45 minutes ago, cobrakid8 said:

yeah, but they only won 1 state title and that was in 2000 with Bradley as RU. They did have the Dye brothers, Mat McCarty, Midgett, Ranallo, Drew Adams, Jeff Rudolph, Hunter Stapp so some very tough wrestlers for sure but I don't think they have anything for that 1993 Overton squad. Of course the privates most likely win this unless we split them up and do best private ever and public ever. I mean Red Bank had like 7 state champs on their state champ team in the 60's but of course its just a different time period with all the split offs now. 

Overton in 96/97 was a VERY GOOD team, but I believe their 95/96 team was their best team. That team was STACKED!!! It had some of the guys listed in a previous post in addition to McTorry. I may be wrong on my yrs but that's what I remember. Coach Gabe, if you're on here and read this, please confirm which team was your best.

After the public/private split, Clarksville in 99/00 was loaded as well, but I dont think any public school would've wanted any of the 96 Overton squad. Just my opinion though.