oceansize42

Wasn't real familiar with Thomas Stadel.  Watched his matches on Flo. Agree that he is definitely at the top but Atwood is working hard in the off season and wrestling a bunch so I won't dismiss him.  

Forgot about the grappler.  6-5 Caleb Urohchuk over Little.  One and two at 126 should definitely be switched.

Heckert really going 182?  Two weight class jump but is a big boy.

Belcher returning to 138?  Rough cut.

Gabe Ferrell from Crockett should prove to be top 4 at either 195 or 220. Lost to Atwood in semis at state 3-1 in sudden victory.  Beat the 2nd place finisher twice during the season.  Draw was poor.  

Other than that not much to say.  Looks reasonable.

 

Came from the Tennessean so should be reasonably reliable as an overall guide to events.

There is consistent talk of parents being responsible (because they wanted little Johnny to get a wrestling trophy) but after reading as much as I could find I don't think it was parents.  It was a handful of school administrators and coaches with an agenda.  Right or wrong they were successful in getting what they wanted.  It also seems to me that football was the driver and nothing else really played all that much of a role.  

Created a separate thread for discussion of who was truly responsible for the public private split.

 

New Thread Here

Not many can remember the score of the 1995 Class 5A state football championship game between Riverdale and Brentwood Academy. But the game often is cited as the trigger for the split between Divisions I and II a year later.

The Tennessee high school public-private debate has simmered for decades since then.

In fact, the issue raged a decade before Brentwood Academy's 27-16 win over Riverdale. And the issue is on the table again when the Tennessee Secondary School Athletic Association legislative council meets July 16 to vote on the next phase of the public-private debate.

"It really started before all of that stuff," said Ronnie Carter, who was executive director of the TSSAA from 1986-2009. "The first time was about 1986, when we got a proposal to put schools in two separate tournaments. It got a 52 percent (yes) vote.

"The council met to make sure everyone knew all that was involved, and we had eight meetings across the state to discuss the impact. Once people realize we were going to have to take 60 schools out and shift all the other schools, people started realizing the ramifications and ripple effects. The next vote was 70 percent in favor of leaving it alone."

The issue remained off the table until the mid-1990s. The Brentwood Academy win over Riverdale was enough for then-Riverdale principal Hulon Watson to lead a group of public school colleagues to push for a complete separation of public schools and private schools.

To Watson's dismay, a total split didn't happen, but he was happy with the overall division.

"I'm glad that it's over and I'm happy with the outcome," Watson told The Tennessean in 1996. "We'll have public school students playing against other non-financially aided students. That's what I wanted, and I think that's what most of the public schools in Tennessee wanted."

However, in 1996 a TSSAA legislative council voted to form Division II, which would include private schools that could offer unlimited financial aid. Private schools (or "independent" schools, as Carter prefers) that offered no financial aid would be allowed to continue in Division I with the rest of the public schools.

Carter admits he was never in favor of separating schools.

"I didn't think it was right," Carter said. "I did, however, believe strongly in the process, and we went through that process. Our role was that we wanted to make sure (Division II) had a good tournament series in every sport."

In the 1990s, Brentwood Academy was winning numerous football championships. The Eagles' success drew the ire of many in the public school community.

"Most people feel like if they're playing you and they feel you've already won before the game started, they're not very happy," said longtime Brentwood Academy football coach Carlton Flatt, who won 10 state championships with the Eagles. "I've been on both sides of it. I understand how they feel."

After Flatt stopped coaching at Brentwood Academy in the mid-2000s, he saw the other side of the argument. He spent three years at Eagleville, two of those as an assistant coach.

"I remember having to go out and sell things to get money for the program," Flatt said. "I didn't realize people had to do that. It gave a greater appreciation (for public schools)."

Before Division II was formed, private schools adhered to a "quota rule," in which no more than 14 boys and 11 girls who were receiving financial aid could participate in TSSAA-sanctioned athletics. That included just four for football.

Flatt understands his team's success was a big factor in the formation of Division II.

"What happened in 1995-96 was that we went 30-0 against the very best in Tennessee," Flatt said. "We had 70 in our entire senior class and could have played in 2A, but we chose to play in 5A. If winning was simply all we wanted, we could have stayed down.

"If people would have been patient, it would have worked. Financial aid would have been mostly restricted. If we hadn't won, I think everybody would have stayed together."

He also said separation wasn't necessarily the best answer.

"The problem is, when you make rules to hurt yourself, it's hard for me to understand what you're trying to accomplish. I have a former player who coaches in Texas. There, it's the opposite of here. The private schools don't want to play with the public schools there because the public schools are so strong.

"They make rules that help the public schools stay strong. For example, Maryville and Alcoa take advantage of rules that keep them strong."

Both Alcoa and Maryville have open zones that allow students not in their zone to pay a reasonable tuition fee to attend those schools. Alcoa has won seven state championships since 2004, with Maryville taking 11 since 1999.

"If public schools passed rules that made them better, we wouldn't be worrying about this."

Division II was formed in 1996, and teams started playing under the new guidelines during the 1997 season.

About 30 schools chose to move to Division II. That is similar to today's total. There are still numerous Midstate private schools in Division I, most notably Lipscomb Academy, Christ Presbyterian Academy and Goodpasture.

"All of the kids who play now weren't even born before there was a Division II," Carter said. "... I miss some of those great matchups back then — Riverdale vs. McCallie, Milan vs. BA, Milan vs. MUS. ...

"It's been the same issue all this time, just different names. Back then it was Brentwood Academy. Now it's CPA. I think the thing that drives it is winning. It always has."

Reach Cecil Joyce at 615-259-8017 and on Twitter @Cecil_Joyce.

Timeline: Public-private split

Following are important dates in the history of the TSSAA public-private debate.

1969: TSSAA goes to a three-classification system

A school's enrollment size was taken into consideration for football championships, as the largest schools were placed in Class AAA and the smallest in Class A. Three classifications still exist in Division I in sports such as basketball, baseball and softball, while football was extended to five classes in 1993 and six classes in 2009.

Early 1980s: "Financial Aid Quota Rule" established

This rule, established to deter high school recruiting, limited the number of athletes receiving financial aid who could participate in TSSAA-sanctioned sports to 14 boys and 11 girls per school (regardless of size). This rule was abolished when Division II was formed.

May 1986: First proposal to separate public and private schools

According to former TSSAA Executive Director Ronnie Carter, this was the first time a legislative council voted on such a split. It initially earned a 52 percent vote to split, but after consideration and research of ramifications, dropped to just 30 percent.

December 1995: Brentwood Academy defeats Riverdale 27-16 in the Class 5A Clinic Bowl

Not long after, Riverdale principal Hulon Watson and a group of public school colleagues proposed a complete split of public and private schools.

March 1996: TSSAA legislative council votes to establish Division II

A complete public-private split wasn't initiated, but the council did vote to move schools that wanted to offer financial aid to athletes into Division II, which would compete separately with public schools in the postseason.

August 1997: Post-split era begins

The first football season is played after the split, as Division I retains its five-class system and Division II is divided into Small and Large classification.

1998-2006: Brentwood Academy sues TSSAA and Carter

This suit came after the TSSAA imposed recruiting sanctions (citing "undue influence") against Brentwood Academy following letters the football program sent to eighth-graders in 1997. The program was put on probation for four years and ineligible for the postseason for two years. In the suit, Brentwood Academy alleged that the TSSAA recruiting rule violated First and Fourteenth Amendment rights and Tennessee law. During the nearly decade-long conflict, three separate decisions were overturned, and in the end, the final ruling by the Supreme Court was in favor of the TSSAA.

February 2004: Multiplier rule

For private schools that still competed in Division I, a multiplier rule was established. This multiplied the school's enrollment by 1.8 in order to determine which classification that school would compete athletically. The rule commonly placed the schools one classification higher than their actual enrollment would have dictated.

March 2014: Lewis County and Trousdale County make proposal to separate public and private schools

The TSSAA legislative council voted 7-2 to table the proposal in order to form a committee to study the issue. The committee, composed of two council members, two board members and 11 public and private school officials, recently provided the council with four options, including a complete split, a postseason split, implementing a success-advancement component or simply leaving things the way they are. A fifth proposal — separating schools based on whether they are classified as "urban" or "rural" — was brought up at a June 11 public-private study session.

June 2015: TSSAA discusses public-private split

With new proposals to completely split public schools and private schools, the TSSAA holds a lengthy board of control meeting to discuss the issue. Numerous pages of information are handed out on the subject. A vote on the issue is planned for July 16.

 

The Tennessee Secondary School Athletic Association is set to vote next month on a potential public-private split that would change the landscape of high school athletics in Tennessee. High school sports reporters Michael Murphy and Tom Kreager sat down to answer some of the major questions surrounding the upcoming decision:

What is this all about?

The long-running public-private debate has plagued the TSSAA, along with high school athletic associations across the country, for decades.

In 1996, a TSSAA legislative council voted to form Division II — composed of private schools that provided need-based financial aid for athletes. The state's public schools, along with a handful of private schools that did not provide need-based aid, remained in Division I.

Not long after the initial partial split, the issue surfaced again.

In 2002, then-Collinwood principal Herb Luker proposed a complete split. It was ultimately defeated by a 5-4 vote, but the TSSAA implemented an enrollment multiplier two years later, forcing Division I private schools to compete against larger schools.

What is a multiplier?

A multiplier is a classification component that was first put in place in 2004 to establish a more level playing field in Division I.

The TSSAA uses a 1.8 multiplier, meaning the high school enrollment figures of Division I private schools are multiplied by 1.8 for classification purposes.

For instance, a school such as Christ Presbyterian Academy has a current high school enrollment of 419 students. Once the 1.8 multiplier is applied, that number swells to 754.2, resulting in the Lions' Class AA classification (3A in football). If not for the multiplier, CPA, which does not offer need-based financial aid to athletes, would compete in Class A against schools closer in size.

Why is this an issue now?

In March 2014, Lewis County and Trousdale County made a proposal similar to Luker's, which would force all private schools to join Division II, regardless of financial aid status.

The TSSAA legislative council voted 7-2 to table the proposal in order to form a committee to study the issue further. The committee, composed of two council members, two board members and 11 public and private school officials, recently provided the council with four options, including a complete split, a postseason split, implementing a success-advancement component or simply leaving things the way they are.

A fifth proposal — separating schools based on whether they are classified as "urban" or "rural" — was brought up at a June 11 public-private study session.

Who will make the decision?

The TSSAA's Legislative Council, composed of school officials from the state's nine athletic districts will decide. Council members are Science Hill athletics director Keith Turner, Knoxville Central principal Michael Reynolds, Soddy-Daisy principal Danny Gilbert, Watertown principal Jeff Luttrell, Maplewood principal Ron Woodard, Lewis County athletics director Mike Tatum, Huntingdon athletics director Mike Henson, Bradford Special Schools director Dan Black and Memphis Central principal Greg McCullough. There are no independent school representatives currently on the Board of Control or Legislative Council.

When will the decision be made?

The Legislative Council is scheduled to vote at 1 p.m. July 16 at the Doubletree Hotel in Murfreesboro. However, it is possible the council once again will vote to table the issue for a later date.

If a complete split passes, what will it mean?

The 24 private schools currently competing in Division I, including Christ Presbyterian Academy, Columbia Academy, Goodpasture, Grace Christian (Franklin), Lipscomb Academy, Middle Tennessee Christian and Nashville Christian, would be forced to join Division II.

When would it take effect?

The changes from any proposal that passes would be begin with the 2017-18 school year.

How is need-based financial aid determined for Division II schools?

An athlete's parents or guardians must submit all of their income information to one of the financial services that the TSSAA allows. That agency determines how much the family can afford to pay a Division II school. That information then goes back to the independent school heads.

For example, if it is determined that a family is able to afford to pay $8,000 toward their children's independent school education and the tuition is $14,000, then that athlete's need-based aid is $6,000. A Division II school can award only up to that. The TSSAA has found that through the years very few schools have awarded the entire amount for which an athlete qualifies.

42 minutes ago, cbg said:

I have never heard of the public-school wrestling coaches advocating for a combined individual state tournament.  The fact is that I have never heard of one (1) public school wrestling coach asking to go back to a combined individual state tournament.  The public-school wrestling coaches ask for and received a split in the public-school individual state wrestling tournament. Those same coaches (public school) are the ones that could make a change for the better.  It's time for people to stop being soft and get something accomplished that would truly promote the sport of wrestling.  As a public-school athlete there was nothing better than beating a wrestler from Baylor or McCallie and being able to shut up their loud and obnoxious student body.  It's past time for the entire gymnasium to be rocking so loudly that you can't carry on a conversation with the person sitting next to you due to everyone cheering for the kid from Lebanon to knock off the defending state champion from Baylor.

Wrestling will never ever override want football wants.  Football reigns supreme and there interest is what decides.  Wrestling in Tennessee is of no consequence.  I suppose if every coach requested to have one championship then theoretically it could happen but I don't see TSSAA putting in the effort. 

So in a nutshell all of this was caused by disgruntled wrestling coaches since you say they requested the split.  They are 100% to blame then.

What programs/coaches requested the split for individuals?  

45 minutes ago, cbg said:

Public, Private, Magnet, Open Zoned, Closed Zoned, Co-Op schools, etc... means absolutely nothing when it comes to an individual sport!  All individual sports (tennis, golf, track & field, cross country, etc...) should only have one (1) state champion. The State of Tennessee only has 6.75 million people, so we truthfully don't have a population base large enough to have three (3) individual state champions in wrestling.   The State of New Jersey (population 9.22 million), State of California (40 million population), State of Indiana (6.83 million population), and State of Kentucky (4.51 million population) still only have one (1) individual state wrestling champion.  There are only two (2) reasons that Tennessee has multiple individual state champions within an individual sport:  1.  Tennessee had and still has a turf war going on in high school athletics.  Everyone wants for Lil Johnny and Suzie to win or place at the championship level.  We currently have a few state champions every season that if they were required to go through a district and region tournament, they would not qualify for the state tournament if it were combined.  2.  The T$$AA is looking to milk every available dollar out of the member schools, parents and grandparents.  They feel that they will make much more money with very little effort by having multiple state champions.  I fully understand the separation for the dual match state tournament but to separate the individual state wrestling tournament is ludicrous.  Look, the wrestlers know who the best is and each and every state champion that I have ever spoken with welcomed a combined state championship.  This is nothing more than a bunch of soft adults that are afraid of competition because they are not assured of doing well.  

Don't disagree but it was split because of football.  Football did this, not wrestling.

 

1 hour ago, cbg said:

Instead of everyone arguing/debating who the best kids are, we should place everyone back together for the individual state wrestling tournament.  Use a 32 man bracket and double elimination tournament and have the final on a raised stage (NCAA Finals) under the spotlight.  

This would be best but we all know it won't happen.  It is to a degree understandable to exclude private but remember it isn't wrestling that drove that decision.  It was football.  I'm not sure how most wrestling coaches feel but the one's I've talked to over the years seem to miss the single championship that existed years and years ago.

However, the logic that drove breaking out private certainly doesn't apply to public particularly since TN doesn't that have that large of a wrestling population to start with.  There should be one public individual championship.

We have all been robbed of what could have been some real barn burner matches not to mention giving kids the opportunity to claim state greatness with absolute finality.  It would also end the business of "picking" the best close weight class as almost every weight class would be extremely difficult.  Less incentive to cut for sure.

Ahhh, I forgot they were PF kids.  Would have been fun but the injury bug has killed them as of late.  Garrett and Howard last year.  Littles injured last year too? I really hope Garrett is injury free and can enjoy his time at Arkansas.  He deserves that.   And also their 160 injured just before states.  Rough season last year.

8 minutes ago, JSamson7 said:

Cable, Howard, Howard, Littles, Wolfe for starters. In their respective classes, they could all bring home a title. They have some good Freshman coming up as well. A healthy and full PF team (without being raided by private schools) over the last few years would be sitting where Cleveland is at. Everyone else would be fighting for 2nd.

The title of this thread was "A individual".  I picked who I thought was going to the best in pre-season.  I put Wolfe as a contender but left out Howard because he didn't wrestle last year and was unsure of his status this year. 

What weight class is Cable going (your best guess)?  He is an X-factor.  Wrestles tough but his one loss last year was to an Urohchuk (forget which one).  

Other than Dalon what other big name did PF lose?  (I'm seriously asking, not being argumentative).

7 minutes ago, JSamson7 said:

Who says I'm talking about your Greeneville kids? A lot of people seem to forget how good Aidan Howard is, he's been hurt most of his HS career from football. 

" I can name 5 that I'd put up against anybody."  Does that statement not include Greeneville kids?  Am I missing something?

My kids didn't go to Greeneville.   My son trained with Hunter and Kodiak when Joe was here and spent a summer with Nahshon.   Good times for me, not him

59 minutes ago, cowcatcher said:

These seem pretty spot on to me. It's so hard to predict what weights these guys will be at, but I'll give it a go...

106-Not sure who will even be here

113-JoJo Uhorchuk (Signal Mtn.) over Aiden Wright (Halls)

*I'll take Dupill at 113 if he can make the weight. I would give him a slight edge over JoJo but don't think he would win at 120. 

120-Ethan Uhorchuk (Signal Mtn.) over Carson Dupill (G'ville)

126-Caleb Uhorchuk (Signal Mtn.) over Hunter Johnson (G'ville)

132-Andy Cable (Pigeon Forge) over Dylan Davenport (Sycamore)

138-Grant Hawkinson (Page) over Sam Hutchison (Halls)

145-Brody McLemore (Eagleville) over Wyatt Howard (Pigeon Forge)

*I think McLemore beat him by a pretty convincing margin last year, but Howard is legit, and is good enough to win it this year.

152-Hunter Mason (G'ville) over Luke London (Sycamore)

*I would take Hunter win win every single weight class in Single A this year. And yes, that includes heavyweight. Hunter is the best wrestler to come through TN since Jordan Leen in my opinion.

160-Colin Dupill (G'ville) over Thomas Magness (Harpeth)

170-Logan Heckert (Sycamore) over Briar Whaley (Halls)

*Two things...1) I know we won't get it during the state tournament, but I would love to see Heckert v. Dupill during the season 2) If Heckert goes 182, I bet you'll see Whaley v. Magness in the finals at 170. I heard Heckert was big, but I'm not sure he wants to risk it v. Stacey at 182.

182-Jake Stacey (Green Hill) over the field

195-Kendrick Curtis (Fairview) over Kobe Smith (Red Bank)

*Watch out for Aiden Littles (Pigeon Forge) too

220- Zac Chrisman (G'ville) over Rob Atwood (Trousdale) 

285-Caleb Wolfe (Pigeon Forge) over the field

*Will be interesting to see what weight Atwood goes. I think he's got a better chance against Curtis or Smith at 195 but not sure he can make the weight again. Chrisman is going to be tough to beat. He could win it at 220 or 285 I think.

My top 5 teams going into the year...

Tournament

1. Greeneville

2. Signal Mountain

3. Pigeon Forge

4. Halls

5. Page (Sycamore close #6)

Dual

1. Signal Mountain

2. Pigeon Forge

3. Greeneville

4. Page

5. Halls

G'ville, Signal, and Pigeon Forge are the clear top 3 teams this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see any three of them win either duals or traditional, but I would be very surprised to see a team outside of these three to be a legit contender to win it all.

Signal seems to have the most solid lineup top to bottom, PF right behind them, but it's going to be hard to beat G'ville in a tournament with all of their studs.

Best wrestler out of TN since Leen has to be Chittum but I get what you are saying about Hunter.  Watched him beat my poor kid into the dirt about a thousand times over the years, lol.   A healthy Hunter (get well dude) is the best wrestler in Tennessee currently IMO.  Healthy he beats the brakes off any kid (outside his training partner Colin) close to his weight class in D2, 1AA and 1A.  Them's facts.   I watched Hunter and a considerably larger Kodiak Cannedy wrestle a whole bunch and if anyone thinks Kodiak had a good time they would be wrong so for all you others who aren't as familiar with Hunter don't go thinking the weight makes a huge difference as we all witnessed what Kodiak did to 99.99% of all kids in TN.  With Kodiak moving on Hunter has a great partner again with Colin.  Good luck to anyone and everyone who runs into those two. Rough.  

Don't overlook Ferrell from Crockett against Chrisman if they are at 220.  Gabe has grown to be quite savy and I think he has a good chance.  Be a banger within region 1 for sure.

6 minutes ago, TotallynotLEO said:

Whaley will be 160 again. 

195 Curtis over Gabe Ferrel (Crockett)  

If Atwood, Curtis, and Ferrell are all at 195 that would be a lot fun.  Gabe lost to Atwood 3-1 in SV in the semi-finals at states.  Beat the second placer twice during the regular season.    I think Gabe might be at 220 this year though.  We shall see.  Chrisman vs Gabe at 220 would be fun as well. 

12 hours ago, JSamson7 said:

Man.... you all are leaving off some pretty talented kids from Pigeon Forge (outside of Wolfe). I can name 5 that I'd put up against anybody.

Wrestling tough doesn’t count. A lot of kids can wrestle tough and hang around.   There is no one at PF who won’t get absolutely run over against a couple of those names I laid out.   Does not take away from their accomplishments against others.   My list was just naming who I viewed at the top way early in the season.   Will adjust as season goes along. 
 

I’m genuinely curious though as who you view remotely competitive against Colin and Hunter.  You said against anyone and that means you think they have a shot at winning.  

 

I knew I was bumping him up but I thought he might be about 170sh as he was decent sized 160 last year.  I don't think he beats Heckert so I went ahead and put him at 182 thinking he might want to avoid that matchup.  But if he can make 160 that is a good spot unless Dupill tires of cutting weight and decides to go there, which I doubt as he was 52 last year and doesn't appear to be much bigger right now.  However if he did go 160, nobody is beating him if healthy.

Carson Dupill and  Urohchuks everywhere and anywhere down low.

Colin Dupill at whatever weight class he wants between 145 and 160.

Hunter Mason at whatever weight classes he wants between 138 and 152.

Logan Heckert at 170

Jack Stacey or Briar Whaley at 182

Atwood at 195

Chrisman/Ferrell/Wolfe at 220

Lance Williams at 285

 

Max Norman now ranked 16 on Flo at 152 pounds.  

Dupill is 16 at 145.

Hilton is 15 at 120.

Hunter Mason 6 at 138

Gabe Fisher 20 at 220

Paradice hits a headlock with 7 seconds left to score five which ties it at 6-6 and then doubles Brown in OT to win.  Nice

Max has to be ranked after this.  Number 8 and number 9.  The scores were close but Max controlled both of those matches and was never really in any danger.  

19 hours ago, cbg said:

This early in the season it’s difficult to tell what is happening because so many of the wrestlers are not in wrestling condition.  Wrestle these exact matches at the end of the season and don’t give anyone weight allowances and the results may be very different. 

There are always excuses.  I'm not being mean or a smart #### but there always is.  Little injuries, burnout, bad nights sleep, out of shape, illness, weight cut, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.  The results speak for themselves.  This wasn't a required event, they had ample notice, ample training time, and all  have plenty of coaches and training partners.  You know how wrestling is.  If you signed up then come prepared, or don't sign up.   With all that said could every one of these matches go different the next time? Absolutely because every kid on that card is stupid good.  In the end I love that these kids are chasing competition.  I do agree with your other thoughts on time off and I hope these kids take a break from the grind.   

Most surprising result?  Brenot over Alvarez and Fowler with the pin on Sturgill. Nicely done. Public putting it on private.  Norman was the favorite but good point spread.  Phillips and Askew return the favor.  Ellison loses a close one.  A little surprised on that one.   

1 minute ago, blazer1set said:

Elizabethton is going through much the same thing, but don't take that as any disrespect for the Eliz coaching staff.

Agreed. I really like Crockett's newish head coach but now we are going to see what he can do with the very limited resources  he has.

1 hour ago, noonesfool said:

On a more serious note, is your offensive coordinator the same one as for the previous several years?

I'm sure it is but as everyone knows Crockett is minus every "great" offensive athlete they've had the last three or four years.  This year will be helpful to Crockett in the long run as nobody can lean on Prince Kollie, Cade Larkins, and a handful of others.  To some degree having athletes of that caliber, while fun to watch, does the coaches and team a disservice, particularly so for a new head coach.   You can be bailed out of bad situations by one or two guys against so so teams.  Now everyone will have to participate and dumb mistakes are much more noticeable which leads to corrections since they are so noticeable.

Greeneville's wrestling team is in the same situation after this year.  They've lost Kodiak and this year they lose Hunter Mason and Colin Dupill.  That is three nationally ranked wrestlers (all transfers into the program, Hunter and Kodiak in 7/8th grade, Dupill his Junior Year).  Everyone on Greeneville's team will have to pick up the slack or else things are going to look mighty different.