nashdude

feels good to have had such a close prediction... I was within 2 points of the result. Congrats to both teams for a great match. As I understand it the crowd was big and the event was a smashing success for our sport. Special thanks to CHS and Ryan for being willing to compete against each other regardless of the public/private dispute. I'm glad to see we've gotten past some of the things that once were obstacles. Hope a few holdouts on this silly dispute will see that competition is what makes us all better. I sincerely hope for the day (won't happen soon, most certainly) when we all watch every kid from TN wrestle for the true state championship, regardless of from a public school in Memphis or from the creme de la crem schools in Nashville and Chattanooga. I won't hold my breath, but it sure would be nice...

Here's another one I witnessed recently in a different state and wonder what you guys think... I saw a kid apply a half nelson that pushed the other kids shoulder further than it should have (in the sideways, behind the head sort of motion we've all seen) and the official called it illegal rather than potential. When The referee turned to the table to make the call and award the point/start recovery time, I saw the defending wrestler's coach gesture to the kid to act hurt. The kid then fell back on the mat and acted in tremendous pain and was awarded the match at the end of receovery time... Couldn't believe it, but have to blame the official here for not knowing the rules and making the wrong call. Of course, the kid was able to wrestle in the next round and got hammered (serves him right for faking), but the wrong kid lost because of a lack of knowledge of the rules... What a shame...

I agree; however, I'm trying to understand what that judgement should be. Maybe an experienced coach like irishdad can comment on what he thinks is/isn't safe on the knee. Safety is important, but we don't want to be overly cautious and penalize a kid whose ankle picks are helping him defeat opponents. The knee can safely be twisting a small amount, this much we all know. Too far and it could cause injury. Is it 1 inch of twisting, or two... Judgement is indeed needed, but what's appropriate and what's not? Another example of a similar safety issue that if we were only concerned with safety, then we'd outlaw the guillotine, but there's a certain level of straightening of the arm/shoulder from that position that is safe and is a valuable move. So, I think I may be the only one who's thought about these issues, so if no one has any further comments, I'll just change the topic shortly.

What I was trying to imply is that I'm convinced that someone (often the defending wrestler's coach not the wrestler himself) cries uncle when it's not really a painful situation (as an effort to get out of a tricky spot with a free restart), but that's not the point of the question... the question is, when to stop, when not to stop... Again, I don't want to get into ethics, and I'm not challenging ethics at all here, just interested in different viewpoints on how this should be called when it arises. I personally think officials stop it a little too often, but that's purely my opinion and I don't have a suggestion to improve it. Thought perhaps someone or an experienced official could give us some insight into how to properly know when it should/shouldn't be stopped.

Agreed, it is good discussion... Any other finer points of the rules that someone would like to discuss. Perhaps we can even get an official or two to respond about tricky calls, precarious situations, stalling judgments, coach misconduct, difficult control calls, escapes, or even potentially dangerous calls.... Here's my question... Could someone explain the knee twisting potentially dangerous call to me? What constitutes something that warrants stopping, and what constitutes the regular physical challenges of the sport? Obviously, you could say that it's when the athletes' risk of injury is imminent, but how far is ok and how far is not ok? I ask because I regularly see coaches whose kids are in precarious situations being the first to yell "Potentially dangerous" but say nothing when their kid is on the offensive... Obviously there's an ethical thing going on there, but aside from that... what causes it to be stopped sometimes, and not on others?

If you haven't been to Brentwood, then I'm not sure your comment carries a lot of weight. Until you've seen Mater Dei land 9+ kids in the finals (granted, only 2-4 win, but at least they're there) you may not have seen the best competition in an individual tournament in a while. Going back a few years, Ryan's tournament was the best, but I strongly believe that Brentwood has surpassed them for the past 3-4 years in a row. McCallie runs a first rate tournament as well (again not knocking McCallie or Ryan's tournament) but have to interject that the best competitors come to Brentwood for a dogfight. You'll see some of the best matchups all year, some (not most, but a few)even better than the state finals matches. It's really worth the admission price, plus a few more bucks.

I have to concede that I don't mind when a wrestler is up by 5 and is protecting a lead, but in the 1-2 point lead range, I see the best action, including at the college level when the ref penalizes someone for stalling. I'll concede that control is the name of the game, but you see a lot less fear of letting the opponent escape and seeking to score a takedown at the college level. I think that's where we need to be. If you can't turn your opponent, or otherwise gain an advantage, I think we should see them on their feet to wrestle it out to let the best man win. After all, this is what interests the spectators who've paid for their seats. Not that it's all around money, but since our sport has struggled in recent years, I firmly believe this can help bring in more people and interest the public, thereby helping the funding issues we struggle with. It sounds to me like we're all on the same page, just got there from different angles. We all acknowledge action and aggressiveness is what makes our sport the best contest in all of history. The battle of wills makes it great. The more of that that our culture can witness and be a part of, the better off wrestling will be over time.

As far as stalling is concerned, I just have never seen it have an effect on a kid who is really motivated to get out there and get the job done. The kids who impress me most are the kids who're up by 3 and are taking single and double leg shots with 30 seconds to go to put the match out of reach. Now, those are the kids who never get nailed for stalling. After all, I think it's high time we began to encourage wrestlers not simply to win, but to compete using their best efforts. I'll do a quick throwback to Sean Kim, who I rarely saw getting hit for stalling (maybe once and I saw him wrestle dozens of times) was always trying to stretch that lead another few points regardless of the clock. That's what's happenning at the college level, and if we encourage that kind of aggressiveness, we'll see more of our TN kids at the NCAA level.

Additionally, I think Tim Abel is top notch. He catches some flak for being so tough on stalling, but I think he really knows his stuff and is reliable to call a fair match every time. A few others from Middle TN who're out there doing well you may or may not have heard of: Jon Swindle, Paul Douglas, Rick Lowry, Bowler, Hudgens, and not to forget the young guy who got a lot of attention last year or year before last, Steve Craig. All of these guys are great officials, and even Steve now has 5+ years of calling under his belt (not sure if 5 or 6 years since he graduated).

My hat's off to Kenwood. Nicely done! And, additionally, I stand corrected and issues muchas congratulatos to KKW.

My guess is Ryan by 3 points... But, you're right, it'll be a dogfight. Wish I could make it there, but I'll have the inside scoop by tomorrow.

Shifting gears a bit, but what do you guys think of the "controversial" stall call that resulted in Bond Davis from Franklin losing his first match of the season on Tuesday night. I wasn't there, but from all descriptions, here's how it went down... 30 secs to go in 3rd period, stalemate is called... On the restart, Clarksville's Hebda shows some moxy and reverses to tie the match 3-3. Davis thinks he's up by 1 point, so he flattens out like it's a freestyle match and refuses to base up or make an escape attempt. With 3 seconds remaining, the ref calls stalling (Davis had been warned earlier in the match) and awarded Hebda the point to give him the win 4-3. I think (assuming the stories I've been reading on here are accurate) that the call was right on target. Too many wrestlers think they don't have to work hard, and our sport is too precious to let stallers win. What do you guys think?

Thursday, 12/9/04... tonight

Any thoughts on what the score might be? Also, any individual matches that are likely to be close? Additionally, I just found out that the same ref that called the controversial stall on Davis (which, from all evidence presented here online, I agree with) will be reffing this one...

Stalling is stalling anyway you slice it. The rule book is clear that both wrestlers must wrestle aggressively at all times. If no one disputes that davis was stalling, it doesn't matter when it happenned. And it sees that no one argues it. Most agree that he had his head in the mat and thought he was in the lead, so he was truly stalling it out. Therefore, he deserved the loss he was handed. The official didn't give this one away, as the Clarksville kid outhustled Davis for the win. If you don't want to wrestle, try out for basketball! Stalling is killing our sport on a macro-scale, and until officials penalize the infractions appropriately, our sport may continue to struggle. I wasn't there, but if the word on here is true that Davis had his head in the mat, then I applaud the official for a job well done. Regardless of whether you like his calls on other occasions, you have to acknowledge that the kid who deserved to win, won. Any kid laying on the may deserves to be penalized.

I wasn't there at CHS, so can't comment on the Unneccessary roughness (which is the right name in wrestling). Any way to describe what happenned? I'm pretty cynical of secondhand rumors, anyway... I've seen him miss a call or two before, so not defending him, just wondering what went down, since there's a lot of talk about the match last night.

I've seen so many talented young officials (in the 5-10 year experience range) who left the sport for a variety of reasons (some family, some to coaching, some to out of state moves), but a thank you goes a very long way to keeping some of the ones who might otherwise get burnt out or run out by booing fans, etc. Amen to you fellas for having the right attitude. The day is coming when Faircloth, Mara, Jim Simpson, Paul Simpson, etc. will be too old/too blind/too scenile to run around out there and we need guys coming in behind them to fill the veteran role. Experience and a patient coach who discusses calls after/before the match in a non-confrontational manner, will make these guys better year in and year out.

Saw the finals at Kenwood. I think Masters has his work cut out for him with Ryan. He's a great motivator of kids, so it's possible Kenwood could wrestle above their talent level, but I think it's hard to combat kids who've got wrestling in their genes with kids who largely started at the Jr. high level. They may have a few kids with more experience, but that's largely on target.

Alrighty, I'll get the ball roling by asking who's doing great this year and who's not (among the refs)? Any opinions?

Ryan 72-6 hands down. There not a good match in the whole meet, I'm guessing. And not to worry, I'm not a Ryan alum, coach, athlete, or fan. Just stating how it's gonna go down.

I think it's good for coaches, athletes and officials to get to converse about rules, calls, and why judgments go certain ways during the matches that we all love to watch and talk about for days on end once they've concluded. Perhaps it'd be good to mention a few outstanding calls I witnessed this weekend. I saw some outstanding officiating from Faircloth (an old timer from nashville). He seems to have the out of bounds call down to a science, and you rarely see him questioned. Hats off to him for his years of dedication to our sport!

There are a handful of ways this official can be held accountable. Although none of which immediately satisfy your anger at his calls. First, the coach does have the right to ask the assigning officer not to schedule him anymore for meets, where feasible (which is almost always). Second, I'm certain the other officials on site, among whom several were 15+ year officials, had plenty of time to talk to whoever this struggling (likely younger) ref was. So, just a word of encouragement to say that market forces via the coaches, assigning officer, and Ronnie Carter will make certain that the official improves or is permanently assigned to JV/Freshman/Middle School matches only. Your comments are well founded from the several people I've spoken with who were present Saturday. Don't worry, as those thoughts will travel up the chain of command.

"Heard that this referee made strange calls at Kenwood on Saturday and then again tonight." What kind of strange calls? the stalling call or something else?