nashdude

I didn't say that a state championship from Florida or Texas was meaningless, just that it had so far less meaning than a state champ who had to beat the best to be his state's best. There are indeed some outstanding wrestling schools in FL and TX, I was just pointing out that splitting the system has a dilution effect, as there are 5 State champs per weight class in TX... Not a good idea, in my opinion. Some are paper champions. It's true that no one can take it from the kid, but again when we were growing up, titles were something earned in the heat of battle through meeting the competition head on. I'll defer the rest of my argument to agree with the coach from Virginia who clearly pointed out the detriments of a 2+ class system for individual championships. About the organization comments... It's apparent we don't see eye to eye on this one, so we'll agree to disagree, as I just can't ram the football comparison through my brain because it doesn't follow simple enough logic. Perhaps it's just too complicated of a concept for me to grasp... In team sports, we are talking about talent pools because several athletes make up a team. I'm not a fan of the football class system either, just for the record, but that's neither here nor there. I think a decent way to explain my position would be to consider the following: What if the football A championship team was required to play the 5A team after they won their state title. Which team would you bet on? Sounds like a logical conclusion that we'd bet on the 5A team 9 times out of 10. Fair enough. However, when you then consider track, tennis, cross country, or wrestling, as an individual state title, it's any man's game, and all bets are off based on the size of school. You'd bet on the man, and therefore he's on his own. A school of any size can have a single class state champ regardless of its enrollment or talent pool. One kid doesn't require a great team and again competition is better for the sport. I can't see how duplicate titles has meaning. For example, we'd all likely agree that when Philip Simpson was a Junior and Senior it was highly improbable that anyone (d-1 or d-2) that could've beaten him (only an example, so if you disagree, don't argue this minor point, as I'm not bad-mouthing anyone). The guy who won the D-1 title in his weight class those years was a paper champion (not to say he wasn't a good kid or wasn't a great athlete, as I'm sure he was)but he wasn't the best, as he never beat the best. True, neither you nor I can take his title away, and we can all be happy for him, but he won his title without facing the competition head on for his title. If he'd had the opportunity to face Simpson and had one, there'd be no doubt who the better man on the mat was. In my opinion, every kid should have that opportunity, and by dividing classes, we rob the kids of that opportunity. Adding classes only hands out more titles, some will be meaningful, many will not.

DAL, I think you're making an apples to oranges argument. What sport (aside from tennis) requires only one person? Just wrestling... You're comparing state championship teams (football, baseball, and basketball) versus State Champ (one athlete) in wrestling. I'll sign off on separating the duals however you want, but I am a far bigger fan of one class for the Individual State. I can't see how growth will result... Someone has already mentioned that GA hasn't seen growth in their system. How is does hurt our state is when we leave the state to compete, you see some state champs get crushed by kids from other states (IN, OH, etc.) because a state championship from Florida or TX doesn't mean anything from the private/small school division in many cases. I've seen a 3 time state champ pinned in 30 secs by a "mere" state qualifier (didn't medal) who was from Indiana, and it wasn't a fluke... the TX kid just stunk. When there's one state champ per weight class, that kid is most assuredly one tough dude who's a force to be reckoned with. Even then, runner-up has meaning too... For example, a lot of folks compain on here about our D-II consolations rounds and how terrible they are at the state tournament. Citing that the D-II kids in the finals match can compete with the D-I kids, but the typical 3rd and 4th place finishers are weaker and would get hammered. Case in point that TN can't sustain a 2 class system well, much less a 4 class system (3 public, 1 private).

That's a great idea in theory when you think about dual team championships (even though many would question it still). However, individuals are individuals and should have a shot at one title per weight class. This concept works really well in Indiana, Illinois, and Kentucky. The state finals have some real power to them that is only fractionally there at the TN finals at UTC. Not to say they don't do a fabulous job, but the sport grows from competition, and dividing the schools into classes for an individual tournament where the team score isn't kept doesn't seem logical. When in Indiana and Illinois, the finals is done on one mat, with the arena darkened with a spotlight on the center mat. The kids enter to their names being announced from opposite ends of the arena, and walk to the cheering of the crowds til they meet at center mat to shake hands a wrestle like men. It's an experience I think our kids deserve, and there's no feeling like wrestling "under the lights"! In my opinion, Georgia is a bad state to compare. I'm not sure I want anything to look like the way Georgia has done things, as I believe Georgia has missed the boat by stepping away from the NFHS rules on weight management, etc. In spite of the obvious problems we had this year, I think it is the right direction for our state, and my hat's off to Mr. Carter for taking us there regarding weight mgmt., but that's another topic altogether that we've discussed ad nauseum on here.

"Nashdude, you made a comment that worries me a little, but also kind of makes one of my points. " of the snot-nosed guys you mentioned who's too prideful to correct his misapplication of a rule, I'll defer to Ronnie Carter's advice from the state meeting 5 years ago when asked how to handle this as a coach... to which he replied, "You may as well sit your rear back down, because it's going to be a long night." What other recourse do coaches have? None that I'm aware of. That shouldn't be. The ref's have to be held accountable by someone. " They are held accountable much more than I think you are aware of... Take a year off coaching, put on the stripes, and then you'll rephrase your thoughts. You may feel the same, but you will acknowledge that the system is far better than basketball, football, baseball, etc. combined. As a coach, you have more ability to hold an official accountable than you may realize. A referee who is truly as terrible as you say, can easily be run off by Ronnie, TSSAA, or the local assigning officer, as is necessary. I've seen a few who truly are that terrible in the past few seasons, but they're the guys calling the duals and tri's where there are 9 forfeits per team, (the non-competitive/less stressful). As far as tournaments go, on any typical weekend, I see one or two officials who do not call the finals/semi-finals matches because of their lack of experience/poor officiating, and this is instigated by the coaches, not the officials... So try to let some of the bitterness go. About your respect comments... we're not high school athletes, you should give respect regardless of whether you feel you're receiving it or not. I have been on both sides of the argument at the table and can tell you it's not fun in either place, but the sport demands that you respect all officials, not just the ones you like or agree with or treat you a certain way. All coaches and officials should take a year and try the other job out for a season, then you view things quite differently. And I believe the results help the sport dramatically. As an official, I've had to listen to coaches rant and rave about the silliest detail when the match was already decided by the kids on the mat, and yet the rulebook required me to listen to his gripe at the table. As a coach, I've seen my kids get it for stalling when they'd completed a take-down, then cut strategy (which the rulebook specifically acknowledges as a legitimate strategy and says verbatum that it is not to be called stalling. I've been warned for misconduct when I had my rulebook out to show him the rules... I know what it is to be frustrated, but all coaches and officials should still be respectful regardless. Good luck, and I hope you put on the stripes someday... Zebras see the world through different eyes.

Agreed, he's about as good a kid as any coach anywhere could ask for. Fought like a lion, but had the mind and heart of a true champion. (Not the kind of kid who's likely to ever be in trouble at school, etc.) Hats off to David for a great season!

RC, You sound like you're a tiny bit bitter with some bad experiences you've had. On behalf of the referees, sorry, but to demand accountability goes further than any other sport TSSAA sanctions. I have yet to see a football game stopped for the coach to ask why the referee called holding. Yet, I've witness some of the silliest challenges from coaches over the years. Some are very reasonable, but many are wasteful. Ask any referee why he is most commonly called to the table and he'll probably reply, "questioning of judgment" and he doesn't mean he's classifying everything in that category... The rulebook specifically and clearly allows the coach to question a misapplication of a rule, so be willing and ready to cite a rule when going to the table, and I think you'll find far fewer refs that are unwilling to make an adjustment, as needed (Rule 5-26-5). And in the event you have one of the snot-nosed guys you mentioned who's too prideful to correct his misapplication of a rule, I'll defer to Ronnie Carter's advice from the state meeting 5 years ago when asked how to handle this as a coach... to which he replied, "You may as well sit your rear back down, because it's going to be a long night." And then follow up with a letter to TSSAA about the conduct of the official if it's that blatantly erroneous. Like reftn, I'm not defending all refs, although I apologize for a few, as you've obviously been offended by a few. I don't condone or excuse their behavior, but simply offer advice for you and an explanation of how I see things as a former coach/referee/ and currently avid fan... Please remember, we're lucky in wrestling to be able to call a conference at all. A coach who pushes it too far in basketball doesn't get any warnings/penalty points before he can be ejected. In wrestling, you have at least some options available to you. I strongly recommend using your conferences carefully, and be well prepared. And once you meet reftn, you'll know he's not the kind of guy to make excuses for bad officiating. I've known him for 8+ years and he'll call a spade a spade, so take the time and voice your concerns to him. I'm guessing he'll be more responsive than you'd think... Again, just friendly observations to consider...

If asked at the table in a conference format, the coach would be penailized for misconduct, which is first a warning, then a team point, then 2 team points and ejection from the event for the day. Rule 3-1-2 states "On matters of judgement the referee shall have full control of the match and the decisions shall be final..." Although Rule 6-6-6 allows the coach to call a conference to question judgement, or the misapplication of a rule, the rulebook sides with the official on all matters of judgement. So it's not worth the coach's time to question judgement, as it will (and should) always result in a misconduct call. Not to say that the official's judgement is always correct, as they make as many errors as there is sand on the beach, but the rulebook says what he/she says goes.

This is a first that I've heard of "Ref of the Tourney". Who votes on this and when did "they" vote??? I think there should be a way to "rank" officials ON THE MAT and not just by taking a written test. I wouldn't want to take away from the purpose of Ref's being there and that's the kids wrestling!!! I know in other states at every tournament and dual match the coach's fill out an evaluation card....that could work here as well????

I think that was more like 99 or 00 (possibly 01, whatever year Steve Craig graduated) that happenned. Antonio was the 215 from East Lit who won in the finals. I remember Steve Craig beat a Mater Dei kid for the title at 160 who was a 2nd place medal winner in Indiana the season before. A real stud that Craig beat like 5-3 or something... close match, but Craig was the superior man. Not a Brentwood fan, just love a great match, and that was one of the best GP West Invitationals I've ever seen.

There is NO difference in pay for Officials at any tournament. It is just good to be able to book or assign this Officails. However, if you request a Ref from out of the area, must of the time the school with pay for lodging.

Just for the record... the winner was fully determined before the challenge took place. I don't think it was good for the sport for the referee to have to show the rule in the book to make the call. I've never seen a football official get out a book, and haven't seen a coach refuse to leave the table area/field waiting on a citation from the rule book. The coach has been around long enough to have more than a passing knowledge, and so should the official. After all, don't we require tests of officials? If they're below a certain score, they don't call much varsity, I'm sure. If the coach doesn't cite/reference a specific misapplication, he shouldn't be at the table to make the sport look confusing and outright bad. Wonder how that official has scored the past few years to have to get out a rulebook during a match? Not criticizing, just pointing out that I think our sport is best served by letting athletes compete, coaches coach, and officials officiate as best they can. Table talks seem like a big waste of time, as I don't often see changes made. Seems to me like the coaches who go to the table less often are more successful at getting adjustments when a rule is misapplied. On the other hand, I feel bad for the coach who has to endure an inexperienced or haughty official who flat misapplied a rule, but won't own up to it. It's a tricky situation, but I think it slows down the sport a great deal and makes it difficult to sit there while some problem is sorted out. Basketball, baseball, and other sports rely solely on the judgement of the official and his knowledge of the rulebook. Hence, i think the table talks should be exercised more cautiously. Just an opinion, but i think it would help our sport become more spectator friendly. (I only mention this because we had 4-6 match interruptions where the fans had to sit while one coach or another had to question the official's call.) Anybody else got thoughts on this one?

kids=ids... sorry for the typo

I think it's odd that so many kids are so afraid/UNaggressive that they feel they are taking a tremendous risk to try anything but a spiral ride. I'm seeing way too much of it, and the spiral ride is exactly what it implies... a ride. Either sink in a half, go to something else from the spiral, or let the guy go and take him down. I see a lot of kids who're really talented on their feet get nailed for stalling because they just can't turn the guy or aren't very proficient on top when attempting to get back points. Why not let the kid go and light him up with takedowns? Or why are some coaches no longer teaching kids to do takedowns with backpoints in mind? For example, I see so many half nelsons, turks, bar-arms, cradles, etc. missed on the way down. I'm just tired of seeing kids who're great takedown artists getting pinned on a silly pig roll or peterson (which is a decent move, mind you, but not exactly a college level move). Work on riding in the wrestling room. When competing, go with you strengths. I've never seen a kid dinged for stalling when he let the opponent go and then within 5 secs was taking shots for another takedown. In fact, the case manual refers to this as a legitimate strategy (pg 78). Why not use the rules to your benefit? That's why the rules are there. Not to circument, but to work with to become a better wrestler/coach/official. I guess part of the problem is that wrestlers don't generally have access to rulebooks, but it'd be a solid investment of 5.00 or whatever the going rate is for each team to buy 5-6 books and distribute them to the ids to read on road trips, etc.

The reason I asked is because I saw a new official (new to TN, but not at all inexperienced) named Davenport, who was outstanding. I spoke with him a found out a little bit of his resume. He's from Virginia, and has called the Virginia Duals, which includes some of the nation's best high school talent, along with some D-I college level matches as well. Hat's off to a job well done on Saturday to Davenport. I'm certain we'll see much more of him in the coming years.

I was under the impression that Mater Dei will compete at Brentwood this year. I think KKW made reference to that earlier.

Any comments on the Officiating at Slamfest in Clarksville ????

I think you might have a chip on your shoulder. You have to remember that guy in stripes needs to have a reason to change his call. Yelling and screaming doesn't qualify as a reason. I've seen young officials fix errors when approached appropriately by a coach who asked him to consider a specific rule. Let's not forget that a young guy may not be worth your effort to get a call changed anyways. Half of the coach table challenges are moot. They have no purpose except the coach is unhappy with a judgement call. Watch the most experienced coaches, as they don't spend much time at the table. They know it better be good to make the trip over there. Which is why the rulebook requires either a change of a call due to misapplication of a rule or a misconduct warning/penalty etc. on the penalty chart in the rulebook. So be careful what you say...

Im gonna take the side of Irishdad on this one. The front row students should be ashamed of their behavior, and had better hope Coach Jordan doesn't find out their names or they won't attend another match this season or next. It was a fine match of two competitive teams. Why can't we let it go at that? There were at least 4 different officials in the crowd who agreed that the match was fairly called. Not perfect, but fair. And that's the way it goes... You just cant ask much more and it seems like both caoches/teams have moved on, so let's stop beating this dead horse...

A very poignant question indeed... In this case, I'd have to respond via the competitor in me that loves college level wrestling, because A put himself in the dire circumstance. And to that end, good coaching here would tell A to yelp in pain to get the call to prevent a takedown; however, B earned the imminent takedown, so why should the official punish him for having been the agressor when A put himself in jeopardy. Again, we're not at the college level, but we've got to avoid penalizing the agressor for the defender's carelessness, and yet we must still try to prevent injuries. What a dilemma indeed...

Agreed, and I'm not calling for a rule change, just someone to give me an understanding of where a good rule of thumb for what's safe/unsafe... Great discussion points on this topic... i'm really enjoying hearing all the different points of view. This is great that coaches, fans, athletes, and officials can all comment on rules/calls/judgments in an open manner.

You are at his mercy, in many cases. I realize there are some challenges with this situation, but I don't have any suggestions on how to improve the current way our officials make such calls. It's a tough job, but someone's got to be the final authority on the mat. Opposing coaches would rarely agree in a heated match, so we have to rely on a "neutral" party (referee). I think we're fortunate in wrestling to have an opportunity to question a misapplication of a rule. In basketball, baseball, and football, you're stuck with the call whether it's in accordance with the rules or not.

That's cool. Just clarifying so folks didn't think I'd pulled it out of my posterior. Thanks for your insight. You seem to really know your stuff. I appreciate your comments.

It shouldn't. The casebook this year, as well as the rulebook and the state official/coaches meeting made reference to the fact that playing the line is considered not wrestling aggressively, and is a means of stalling. Hence, it should be penalized firmly and immediately. "Both wrestlers must make an attempt to stay inbounds... "

I don't disagree with the rule, and like you I've been reading all rulebooks and casebooks since 95. You're making the right distinction and your judgment is correct; however, in this situation, my comment was based upon 2 hours of reading comments on here, and speaking with the referee who was one the mat about the circumstances. All of which pointed to the fact that Davis had his head in the mat in an effort not to move/improve/work to advantage on his opponent. So, let's not chase rabbits. Head in the mat, in this circumstance was an obvious attempt to stall out the last 15 secs. of the match, in which he thought he was leading, and therefore he was penalized correctly, according to the rules.

I think fleeing is a tough one to call. Some refs take the easy way out and call it stalling, which is OK by me. There is a difference in the rulebook, and the only distinction I can really make is when someone goes out of bounds deliberately as a means of avoiding wrestling or contact with the opponent. Judgement indeed plays a huge role here, but I think we should draw the line at intent of the kid. Was he trying to create space for a move or was he avoiding the other guys' takedown/reversal by jumping out of bounds. We'll see improvements (less calls because the kids know not to do it) on this as we see more stalling penalties for playing the line/outside. I've seen more calls for playing the line this year than ever before, and I think it'll overall help the sport.