FromFieldtoPitch

The point of keeping seperate divisions in team competition is to keep a level playing field. Private schools have the luxury of being able to pull kids in from any area in the county, state, or even country if they are so lucky as to attract the promising wrestlers from those areas. Public schools must live with the immediate population and the athletes that live in that area. The example that I've used, and it seems quite common, is how should we expect a school like Tullahoma High School to compete with McCallie when McCallie has pulled a Tullahoma-raised wrestler into its school and program (Cody Cleveland)? It's no one's fault, no one is to blame, but it's the fact of the matter that it happens. There is no such problem when it comes to individual tournaments. Many people want the team scores to be done away with at the traditional tournament. I think that it would be best to keep them and place the teams according to divisions. You are also disregarding the fact that DI schools must first qualify for their region dual tournament then win that tournament (the way it was a few years ago, at least, not for sure how it goes now) to appear at the state duals. I'm not sure how DII schools in the tournament is decided. For future reference, turn the pompous and arrogant attitude down if you don't want to sound like the stereotypical DII supporter. If that's what you're shooting for, however, then well done.

Absolutely agreed. Talking about an issue as it applies to the sport and high school populace in general is totally different than mentioning any names. The issue itself is something that shouldn't be ignored/avoided, but if it can't be discussed here without specific kids being mentioned, then I would agree with others that the discussion should end here. Since this has happened, I am going to ask a moderator to end this thread, or at least this particular discussion.

We all have our opinions, that's the beauty of the thing. Good for you for keeping an eye out for your son and knowing that stuff is out there.

Once again, I have not pointed a finger at any kid. And there is no argument. The kids in the schools, the wrestlers in the programs, know that this stuff is going on. As one poster pointed out, steroids is not a ticket to the podium. Strength will only suffice for technique to a certain point. Would you like to wait for a syringe to fall out of a wrestler's bag? What kind of proof do you want? I'm struggling to see your motivation here. If you are an expert on athletes and strength, then surely you can admit that out of the 168 placers from this past weekend, there is a small percentage that have used steroids. That is not an accusation nor is it an assumption. It's acceptance and recognition that there are kids out there that are harming themselves by using steroids. What is the point in downplaying it?

It's a numbers thing and an experience thing. If I had said anyone's name, it would be an accusation, but I have not. I have no names and I have no "proof." That does not mean that I don't know 100%, and it also doesn't mean that I will back down from what I've said just because some people don't like it or it makes people uncomfortable. Here are the facts. Hopefully there are people paying attention instead of sticking their heads in the sand. http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/sec...ter305/305a.jsp - "In the USA, the reported rate of anabolic steroid use is 6 to 11% among high-school-aged males." - "A typical user is a male (95%) athlete (65%), usually a football player, heavyweight wrestler, or weight lifter. He is more likely to attend a metropolitan school of > 700 students, to be a minority student, and to have received steroids from a black-market source (60%)." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...MNGGG2OIKE1.DTL - "A national study of high school seniors, the Monitoring the Future Study by researchers at the University of Michigan, put steroid use at 4.0 percent in 2002, up from 2.5 percent two years earlier. Yesalis said use among teenage girls, now at 1 percent to 2 percent, doubled during the 1990s. The Michigan study also showed a sizable shift in attitudes. In 1992, nearly 71 percent of high school seniors thought people "risked harming themselves" by taking steroids. Ten years later, that number had dropped to 57 percent." http://www.aap.org/family/steroids.htm - "Most commonly, steroid use can be found among the following groups: * Athletes involved in sports that rely on strength and size, like football, wrestling, or baseball * Endurance athletes, such as those involved in track-and-field and swimming * Athletes involved in weight training or bodybuilding * Anyone interested in building and defining muscles "

By the responses that I'm getting, it's obvious that this topic makes many people uncomfortable. Rightly so. I won't say anymore, but I just want to make it very clear that ignoring issues did not help solve anything in MLB, and it won't in this sport either. It's totally the wrong attitude to take. It's clear that a lot of people in the wrestling community still need to open their eyes. And not that this is only a worry in HS wrestling, but also in other HS sports. I've said what needs to be said, and I won't say anymore.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you that there are kids that are extremely strong due both to being naturally gifted, and also because they train their butts off in the weightroom. But, whether you want to believe it or not, there are also those that are using illegal drugs to help increase their strength. I hope testing does come into use. It would be for the benefit of the sport and for the benefit of the wrestlers and their families. I strongly disagree with your statement that "Unless you have proof, then this was a post better not to have been made." If it makes any wrestler, parent, or coach think about the issue, it could be a very positive thing. You say that I am making an accusation, and that is absolutely not true. You say that I am assuming, and you can say that I am assuming that there were kids who walked away with a medal that were using steroids this particular year, but things don't change that much over a few years. The wrestlers may change, but the sociocultural ideals have not changed that much, and the pressures and demands have not changed that much. It is better to assume that there are kids that are putting themselves at risk than to assume that they're all making the right decision when it comes to using steroids.

If parents funded the purchase of steroids, that would genuinely make me sick. But there are kids that walked away with medals this past weekend that have used steroids. I have no doubt about that. Again, I don't know anyone specifically that took steroids, but there is no question that it is happening. When a kid wants to win badly enough, he can find a way to try and give himself an edge, and with all of the stuff going on in MLB, the dangers probably don't impress the kids the most. 70 HRs probably do. But more to the point of the topic of the thread - Danny Tolbert from Red Bank at 160 was absolutely powerful this past weekend. I don't think we have anything to worry ab with steroids there, I think the guy is naturally an absolute beast.

Year-round training seems to be the standard in wrestling. It was that way five years ago as well, but seems to be becoming even more prevalent. Mult-sport athletes in the lower and middleweights have a hard time competing against the single sport wrestlers, because the technique, conditioning, and other aspects of the sport is harder to develop if only 4 months out of the year is devoted to wrestling as opposed to 9-12. It seems that heavier weights, however, can still play multiple sports and win championships, due to the lower amount of technique needed (a 215 and heavyweight can get away with 3 or 4 moves in his arsenal). Not really a lower amount of technique I guess, but less depth in his wrestling knowledge or approach. Can anyone think of any of the state champs that play football or some other time consuming sport? I know the 215 from Farragut was a standout football player, and surely the HW from Halls played football as well.

This thread reminds me of something that kept popping into my head as I watched the tournament this past weekend - how many of these kids are on steroids? I wonder if most of the fans out there are naive enough to think that this doesn't occur. *Not to insinuate that any of the above named wrestlers have used steroids, because I have absolutely no clue.

215 is boring anyway - give me middleweights. Did someone from GA beat Felix this year? I think I read that somewhere.

Not so, just want to see how you came up with your opinion. You know, to make sure that your bias doesn't cause you to automatically think DII wins. Check out the "Dream Team" thread - pretty interesting discussions.

Maybe this also has a lot to do with the change in region. Didn't all of these teams move out of the region that had the Williamson Co. schools (Franklin, Ravenwood, Brentwood) for this past season? If I am correct that these schools moved out of that region, who are the new big competitors? Also, ringworm, I hope you're joking in your reply. If you're not, don't you think that's a little over the top?

Well, since DII's state champ Dean Smith apparently beat the GA state champ at the McCallie tournament in the finals as well as the GA 4th place finisher earlier in the tournament, I guess it would be a pretty safe bet that TN could take 160. Maybe I shouldn't even be responding - I think we've got a GA fan trying to stir the TN pot. "May not win a match" - sheesh.

Well written post, Daniel. I can respect what you have to say. However, message boards are also great for getting people more excited and involved in sports that they are interested and involved in. Sure, it's meaningless to conjecture as to how these fictional matchups would pan out, but at the same time, it's fun to hear different opinions and talk about it anyway. Neither Smith nor Creagan runs a risk of having their championships undermined by our banter. Opinions are opinions, facts are facts - Smith and Creagan are State Champs. By your reaction to the post stating that DI would run away with the fictional match, I assume that you have some opinions of your own, even if it is in regard to a fantasy situation. Don't take this thread too seriously. It's for entertainment purposes only. Congratulations to your brother, yourself, and your family on the championship. I'm sure it's a great feeling.

Sounds like I should have paid more attention to the DII 160 final. Creagan and Tolbert had my full attention. Surely Tolbert has improved since McCallie, considering he's only a sophomore. Wish I had seen more of Smith, though. I thought 160 was the most interesting weight class in DI. Of course, my little brother was in the 160 bracket, so I am a little biased (he had Tolbert in the opening round and lost 9-0, then had Pease in the first round of consolation and lost 6-1... talk about your bad draws... but that can happen when you slip up at regions).

Well now that's not very insightful, now is it? That's sounds more like a talking point than an actual intelligent opinion. "rnhmltnsdwc" posted his breakdown of the matches, which left it DI winning 9 matches, DII winning 5. Some may disagree, but at least he gave it some thought instead of repeating a worn out DII opinion that a parrot could repeat. I was front and center this past weekend, and from the wrestling that I saw, I'd take the DI champs against the DII champs. I agree with rnhmltnsdwc on most of the breakdown. Question - did Holliman and Young wrestle each other at any point this season?

Does he dominate Danny Tolbert (who dominated Creagan for the first two rounds of the finals)? And I know this has little to do with this thread, but anyway... Sure, Creagan beat Tolbert, but people match up against each other differently. The sophomore from Red Bank beat Pease from Clarksville easily as well in the second round (a horrible draw for everyone in that group of four, for Pease and Tolbert to be in the same group). Granted, the freshman Jake Young from Ooltewah beat Tolbert in regions, but Tolbert looked great this past weekend. Anyway, keep coming with the conjectures - hopefully someone will tackle it head on and break it down as how they see it happening.

There is so much discussion in so many different areas on these boards, but a common subject in a majority of them is that of the strength of the divisions, relative to each other. Watching all of the great wrestling this past weekend in Chattanooga was a pleasure. Here's the point of this thread. Imagine that this weekend, all of the state medalists from both divisions returned to McKenzie Arena for another tournament. They would be in their normal division, but on top of that, they are all put into six different rosters - one for the 1st place winners from this past weekend, one for the second place winners, one for the 3rd, and so on and so forth. These six different squads would square off against one another, the first round being the sixth place medalists, then the fifth, etc., until the state champs from DI and DII would meet. My question is, how does everyone think this tournament would turn out? If anyone feels knowledgeable enough, or just bold enough to break it down by actually looking at individual matchups from this past weekend's placers, I'd love to see it, and I'm sure others would find it interesting. So what are some thoughts?

Fair enough. I'd still love to see you break it down by weight class, not as an indignant challenge, but just to see how you think it would pan out. I think I'll start a new thread to see if anyone will take up the task.

That's a bold statement. You think the top three in DII are better than the top three in DI? I don't know if you made it to the state tournament this past weekend, but that's not what I saw on the two mats that were side to side. If you're serious ab what you're saying, I'd love to see you break it down by weight class and let us know where you think the top three from DII would have placed if there was no division. If I had to bet my savings on it, I'd say that should the individual DI champs wrestle the DII champs, the DI side would win around 50-60% of the matches - a near split. If the runner-ups from each division wrestled each other, I would say that DI would win around 2/3 of the matches. The third place winners would be in the same neighborhood. Fourth, fifth, and sixth would go to DI around 80%. These numbers are obviously just my opinion. If someone feels that they are knowledgeable enough to actually break it down by weight class, that would be really interesting stuff. Sure would be a fun dual meet, wouldn't it? Six full lineups for each division, Sixth place winners vs. sixth place winners first, fifth place winners vs. fifth place winners second, and so on... I'd pay good money to see it - or at least the last three rounds, anyway.

Coming in 9th at indiv. and 5th at duals, and three seniors take 3rd, 4th, and 5th was pretty fun. Our guy that came in third should have won state, but the overall success that our team had several years ago was pretty satisfying. Blaster, are you Reveiz's agent or something? If not by title, he may owe you a thing or two for the promoting that you're doing!

His strength is ridiculous, and his technique is pretty good to boot. I haven't seen the Kingston kid wrestle, but it's hard to imagine someone other than Creagan or Young beating Tolbert. 160 is a really tough weight class. Jones of Brentwood had a horrible draw of Tolbert in the first round, then was carried only to wrestle Pease in the first round of consolations. Tolbert 9-0, Pease 6-1. A slip-up at regions and a really bad draw at state, and that's all she wrote.

Well, it won't be Pease - Danny Tolbert, the sophomore from Red Bank, made sure of that. What a strong kid. The freshman from Ooltewah (spelling?) looks great as well. Those guys are going to be forces to be reckoned with in the next few years.

You don't have any qualms about talking about somethign you know nothing about, now do you? 1st and 2nd in DII were good wrestlers, the guys who got 3rd-6th were not very good and would have almost definitely not placed if there were no divisions. Being Region Champ and finishing 4th out of a pool of over 100 competing schools was and is pretty meaningful to me. What's not is someone chiming in on a subject they know nothing about. Headed to Chattanooga. Safe travels everyone.