delaWarr

A coach does not take an official to the table to discuss the entire content of the rule book. All he needs to justify going to the table is the single issue for which he is exercising his prerogative. Even though he may not be able to make a 70 on testing of the entire rule book, he may have a complete understanding of the application or misapplication of the rule that brings him to the table.

Over a decade ago, a university in the Mid-West added a women's rowing team to the athletic program. They imported at least some experienced athletes from the Mid-Atlantic coastal region to compete on the waterways coursing through the rich corn fields of the area. ....an illustration of taking action to meet an artificial quota demand, rather than using the rational in-house student need prong of Title IX.

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to the follow-ups. Who is coaching/managing the Middle Tennessee team?

Historical note: If recall is correct, the original one-half rule (enacted during the late sixties to discourage dropping weight for the State toward the end of the season) was exactly that, one-half the matches had to be at a given weight to qualify for the State series. Since this disqualified completely a wrestler who had matches at three or more weights, but half at no weight, the rule was changed during the early seventies to allow a wrestler to qualify at the weight class inwhich his one-half matches occurred allowing those matches wrestled below that weight to be included in the count. This note addresses historical info only. I do not know anything about the current status.

FiscusConsulting has included the seeds along with the placements at the bottom of each weight class bracket on the website (Mat Control). A double elimination tournament cannot guarantee that the wrestlers will place according to their relative abilities during the course of the tournament, nor that the six best will be guaranteed a medal, but it has a better chance of allowing the pool of wrestlers to sort themselves according to ability/performance and has a much better chance of self-correcting a mis-calculated seed than a carry format. Therefore, seeding in a double elimination tournament does not present the same consequences as seeding in a single elimination tournament, or in a carry tournament. The seeds and placements are taken from the FiscusConsulting website. Seed........... Placement 103 1............ 1 2............ 2 3............ 3 4............ Forf. 5............ 4 6............ 5 7............ Did Not Place (DNP) 8............ 6 * 112 1............ 5 2............ 3 3............ 4 4............ DNP 5............ 6 6............ DNP Unseeded............ 1 Unseeded............ 2 * 119 1............ 1 2............ 5 3............ 2 4............ DNP 5............ 3 6-8............ DNP Unseeded............ 4 Unseeded............ 6 * 125 1............ 1 2............ 3 3............ 2 4............ 5 5............ 4 6............ 6 Since seeds 2 and 3, and seeds 4 and 5 are essentially the same, the committee got this one on the money. * 130 1............ 2 2............ 1 3............ 5 4............ 3 5............ 4 6............ 6 Top 6 seeds medaled. * 135 1............ 1 2............ 2 3............ DNP 4............ DNP 5............ 3 6............ 5 7............ 6 8............ DNP 9............ 4 * 140 1............ 1 2............ DNP 3............ 2 4............ 3 5............ 6 6............ DNP 7............ 4 Unseeded............ 5 * 145 1............ 1 2............ 2 3............ 4 4............ 3 5............ DNP (Dflt) 6............ DNP 7............ 6 8-11............ DNP Unseeded............ 5 * 152 1............ 6 (Dflt) 2............ 1 3............ 3 4............ 2 5-8............ DNP Unseeded............ 4 Unseeded............ 5 * 160 1............ 1 2............ 3 3............ DNP 4............. 5 5............ DNP 6............ 2 7............ 6 8-11............ DNP Unseeded............ 4 * 171 1............ 1 2............ 2 3............ 3 4............ 4 5............ 6 6............ DNP 7............ 5 8-10............ DNP * 189 1............ 1 2............ 2 3............ 5 4............ 3 5............ DNP 6............ 6 7-8............ DNP Unseeded............ 4 * 215 1............ 1 2............ 2 3............ 3 4............ 4 5-8............ DNP Unseeded............ 5 Unseeded............ 6 * 275 1............ 4 2............ 3 3............ DNP 4............ DNP 5............ 1 6............ DNP 7............ 5 Unseeded............ 2 Unseeded............ 6 * #1 seeds - 10 won gold, 1 took silver, the other 3 took 4th, 5th, and 6th. #2 seeds - 2 won gold, 6 took silver, 4 took 3rd, 1 took 5th, 1 did not medal. #3 seeds - 3 took silver, 4 took 3rd, 4 others medaled, 3 did not medal. #4 seeds - 1 took silver, 4 took 3rd, 2 took 4th, 2 took 5th, 5 DN medal. #5 seeds - 1 won gold, 2 took 3rd, 3 took 4th, 3 took 6th, 5 DN medal. #6 seeds - 1 took silver, 2 took 5th, 3 took 6th, 8 did not medal. #7 seeds - 1 took 4th, 2 took 5th, 3 took 6th. #8 seeds - 1 took 6th #9 seeds - 1 took 4th Unseeded- 1 won gold, 2 took silver, 4 took 4th, 4 took 5th, 3 took 6th.

FISCUS CONSULTING and his tournament pairing and scoring combine do a terrific job of it. Not only does he keep the necessary information flowing that helps the tournament to run smoothly, he downloads the information to his website at timely intervals, giving folks a chance to check it out at their leisure. Kudos to Brad for offering this valuable service to the wrestling community. It sure can make tournament life better for everybody. The site can be accessed by clicking Mat Control in his post at the top of page 3 of this thread, or in some of his other posts.

Kudos to Joe Blair and Company for putting together and managing another smooth sailing program* tournament...10 mats in 3 gyms. Spectators were treated to some great individual matches throughout the competition. *School programs could enter wrestlers in three levels of competition: Varsity, JV, Freshman.

Go back to post #5, scroll to the bottom of the post, and click on Mat Control. That opens the Fiscus site and allows you to view the brackets. They had not been updated at 12:30 PM. The quarters were scheduled to start at 9:30 AM. It will be interesting to see how Soddy and McCallie stand after the quarters, and whether Franklin could pull any closer.

jtb99..."Still learning this stuff, but..." "Go figure..." The "Warren County kid" isn't seeded at all. Notre Dame is seeded #5.

99, Go back to post #24 and read what the coach of the two wrestlers you sited had to say about the team's seeds. Maybe this will give you some insight toward the explanation you are asking for.

Check out the GP West post.

As a saying goes, "Luck beats skill". I saw that Sportsfest match, but had forgotten about it. What I had not forgotten was the consecutive State Championships that Vandergriff claimed. On the other hand, since a lucky* win still rightfully counts as win, Pummelking gets to enjoy and share with others (great practiceroom story for both contestants) the fruit of his labors**. *lucky in the sense that either the right circumstance presented itself at the right time, or the winner was able to maneuver his seasoned opponent into the right circumstance to execute the throw **to quote or paraphrase the late Bear Bryant, whichever applies, "The harder (I, we) work, the luckier (I,we) get." Pummelking's practiceroom efforts developed a skill (a throw) that allowed him to trump the multiple skill factors of his opponent and pull out the win, thus justifying his messageboard moniker, "Pummelking".

Canvass the 140 region champs after the State finals to get their take on the "great idea". If other such great ideas of the past are any indication, you will probably find that many, and I would predict a huge majority, would not be interested at all in practicing and controlling weight for another week (or for what ever time "sometime after the state" turns out to be) for the benefit of your entertainment.

SBA, Thanks for the kind comments. You have my wholehearted agreement with your expanded history suggestion. Soms, There was no doubt in my mind going into that post about the site for '79, because that is the place I had the 98 wt. class visualized, Mason vs. Scott. But I couldn't account for the number in the Glencliff series and thought maybe I had something confused. Your mentiion of the snow brought it all back. My favorite team at the time was snowbound in Chattanooga for the night and into the next day. Thanks for the reminder. cbq, The firemarshall incident emphasizes what we witnessed happening with the Nashville wrestling community at that time. The other regions' support helped to swell the attendence figures, but we also saw a healthy increase of genuinely enthusiastic Nashville area support. There was no question that had the tournament remained in the Nashville area at an adequate facility, we would have seen an impressive Mid-State growth pattern in attendance on the State level. Die-hard fans, families, and school personel will go to where ever the tournament is hosted. The more casual fan may not attend to see a particular athlete or team compete, but just wants to get out and see some good wrestling and maybe run into some seldom-seen wrestling friends. He/she needs convenience (fairly easy to get to and not too far away) and a limited time investment. Those of us who are not in the Chattanooga area most likely know several folks who would attend sessions at the State if it were closer to home. Most likely Chattanooga has developed a fairly sizeable following that falls into that category, although we know they have a sizeable loyal fan base also. Familiarity with a venue is in itself an encouragement to attend.

90, the sources for your "understanding" may not have given you the benefit of full disclosure of circumstance. The State was hosted in Chattanooga secondary gyms for the first few years. Notre Dame was the last host in 1967, before the State left Chattanooga for the first time. Donelson High in Nashville hosted the first State outside of Chattanooga in 1968. Brainard of Chattnooga hosted in '69. Nashville Hillwood hosted in '70. I don't recall Baylor's presence at the '70 State, so with a little uncertainty, I am going to assume that they came into (or back into, whichever) the TSSAA in the Fall of '70 and hosted the '71 State. '72 Nashville Hillwood hosted. '73 was back to Chattanooga Brainard. '74 Nashville Overton hosted. '75 was the first year at UTC's McClellan. '76 was back to Overton. '77 returned to UTC. '78 was Hillwood. Not certain whether '79 was at UTC or at Nashville Glencliff. Glencliff hosted '80. I believe Glencliff hosted for three or four consecutive years. I can't recall whether or not the tournament returned to UTC before the short run at Nashville David Lipscomb, but I believe it went directly from Glencliff to Lipscomb. It was back at UTC's McClellan in 1985 and remained there until the move to the Roundhouse. I have no knowledge of the earliest State format, but after the Nashville presence became a factor (mid-1960s), four wrestlers per weight class from each of the two regions qualified for State, eight total in each of the 12 weight classes. When Memphis and Knoxville/Upper East Tennessee first cranked up, they were placed in the two existing regions, Memphis with Nashville, Upper East with Chattanooga. Then after Memphis and Upper East got their second winds and team numbers became consistently great enough, the TSSAA divided into four regions. Each region still qualified four wrestlers per weight, doubling the number of contestants per class. I believe the four regions were put into play during the mid-seventies. Middle Tennessee had the greatest numbers at the time the four regions were established and continued to add teams until they comprised close to 40% of the teams in the state. The TSSAA gave relief of the numbers inequity by allowing the Mid-State region to qualify six wrestlers per weight, bringing the total number of contestants qualifying for the State to 18 per class. This format lasted until 1990 when growth allowed dividing into eight regions; 2 in Knoxville/Upper East Tennessee area, two in the Chattanooga area, three in the Nashville area, and one in the Memphis area. The TSSAA still allowed each region to qualify four wrestlers for State competition, bringing the State numbers per weight class to 32, once again, nearly doubling the numbers of the previous format. At some point, a 13th weight class was added. I believe during the '80s. Then in '95 the 215 weight class was added, bringing the total number of classes to 14. In '98 DI and DII were formed. DI continued the 32 man bracket. DII brought their full teams, potentially creating an additional near-full 16 man bracket. Let's look at some numbers for State Tournaments: Late '60s, early '70s - 8 wrestlers per wt. x 12 classes = 96 participants Mid-'70s, early '80s - 16 wrestlers per wt. x 12 classes = 192 participants Late '80s - 18 wrestlers per wt. x 13 classes = 234 participants 1990 - '94 - 32 wrestlers per wt. x 13 classes = 416 participants 1995 - '97 - 32 wrestlers per wt. x 14 classes = 448 participants 1998 - Present DI 448 participants DII (guestimation: ave. 12per wt.?) 168?participants Present Day Total (+or-) 616 participants And some more numbers - (These numbers are fairly educated guesses.) The numbers of TSSAA wrestling teams at given intervals over the years: 1967 and 1968, when Notre Dame (Chatt) and Donelson (Nash) hosted the States................................................................(est.) 25 teams 1975 - UTCs McClellan first hosted State................................(est.) 75 teams 1985 - State settled at McClellan until move to Roundhouse.....(est.) 110 teams 1995 - ................................................................................(est.) 130 teams The numbers tell a big part of the story. As the numbers of teams increased and the subsequent numbers of qualifiers increased, the numbers in the bleachers increased. During the early years when the State was held in secondary school gyms, there was no discernible difference in the Chattanooga draw and the Nashville draw. During the Friday early round, there were vacant seats aplenty in all venues, but I cannot recall a finals that did not have a full or overflowing house. I don't know the seating capacities of the host Chattanooga high schools during those years that the Tournament was swapping back and forth. Somebody whose knowledge/30-years-ago memory is better than mine will have to answer that. I believe that Glencliff and Hillwood were about 2000 bleacher capacity. Donelson and Overton may have been slightly less. A positive thing that was happening with each succeeding Tournament in Nashville was an increase in numbers during the early Friday and Saturday rounds. (New State Tournament-level fans were being educated that those rounds were worth showing up for.) The TSSAA was pleased with the David Lipscomb site and indications were that the Tournament would have remained there if Lipscomb had been able to accomodate. I remember the bleachers being packed on Saturday night. 90, If the attendance at the Nashville sites actually was mediocre, the source of your "understanding" failed to tell you that the same was true for the Chattanooga sites, as well, during the same period. This eyewitness can tell you that there was little or no diffenence. If Nashville had a willing host venue large enough to accomodate the State tournament at the time it left Lipscomb, we would have witnessed that same increase in attendance that occurred at McClellen...and then some (except newspaper coverage). The increase came because of the increased numbers in teams, increased numbers of wrestlers, increased numbers in fan base that supports expanding participation, and an ever increasing number of ex-wrestlers and ex-fans who come out on occasion to be a part of it again. I have pointed out in previous posts on similar topics that Chattanooga has no Tennessee realestate to its south, minimal realestate to its east. Outside of its own community-at-large, it draws from the North and from the West only. How much Tennessee population is within 60 - 75 miles of Chattanooga? It has a more limited population to draw from, even a more limited wrestling population. Nashville is surrounded by Tennessee realestate in every direction. Not only are there Tennesseans living in every direction around Nashville, there are wrestling programs surrounding Nashville in every direction with fan bases of their own. Nashville would equal the draw at the Roundhouse in reasonably short order and has the potential to outdraw Chattanooga because of its convenience to sheer numbers (by comparison). To repeat previous posts, I support the State's remaining at the Roundhouse as long as the outstanding team members that make it happen are willing to do so. I also appreciate the Chattanooga area wrestling community's historical roll in organizing and making available world-class wrestling events that would make any community proud.

Central Invitational is the oldest annual wrestling invitational in the state. It had its origin at Red Bank and followed John Farr to Central where it has been since. Its first year was the 1968-69 season. So, this is the 38th year since its beginning. The invitationals at Brentwood and Ryan are close behind with their 37th, both kicking off during the 1969-70 season.

His dad played a lead role in one of the great wrestling stories to come out of the State Tournament over the years. The tournament was held at Overton and the Nashville press gave headlines to the inevitable showdown between super heavies, Hale and Daniels. Although the press was correct in the prediction of the showdown, after one unexpected turn of events, it took a second unexpected turn of events to make it happen. Vandergriff took Hale in the semis. Abernathy took Daniels in the semis. So the showdown between Hale and Daniels did occur, but it was for third. Vandergriff took Abernathy for the gold. By the way, Chris Vandergriff and Clifford Abernathy were both members of Team Tennessee at the US Wrestling Federation Nationals in Iowa City.

Without commenting on the rules or the rules interpretation by the ref, because I'm not current on rules either on the National High School Federation level or on the NCAA level, I would caution against automatically accepting the NCAA as a standard by which to judge scholastic, because the rules for the two organizations are not always written the same.

I played for CHS during the fifties. Although we were never able to beat GHS or HHS, we did finally have wins against BHS, DHS, and HHS. We blew our best opportunity to finally beat NHS during one of their weakest seasons. In our school system, I believe we lost to AHS, but never played CHS,HHS, or DHS in football. They were way out of our league. We were a mixture of semi-urban, suburban, semi-rural, and way-out-in-the-country-farm boys. We trapped a lot of limestone clay dust in our nostrils, honored Coach and his rules, had some wins among our losses, and carried great memories and valuable lessons on down the road with us when it was over What a great sport...no matter the level.

What you said was that 189 is among "the low spot on their team". What I said took issue with the inclusion of 189 in your assessment and, aside from the hindsight that 189 scored a fall in his match with Franklin (according to a post above), offered rationale, in part, on which I based my assessment that he is among the "strengths of the Brentwood team" ("continued improvement" and "competitive mindset").

The Brentwood/Franklin 189 results not withstanding, based on his performance and continued improvement last year on the mat, coupled with the his demonstrated determination and outstanding performance on the football field this past season (a statement of his competitive mindset), I see the 189 among the strengths of the Brentwood team.

...and the reason(s) for these "more opportunities to win and shine"...?

Assuming the inference in the above question is that those teams listed perform on a lower level then the "best" teams: 1. Are all of ND's starting team members on an experience level able to compete competently with the "best"? If not, then are these less-then-"best" team members not an important part of the team? Is their success on the mat and the confidence which can come from that success, which in turn can lead to improved performance, not worth considering? If there are less-than-"best" team members, and their contribution to the overall success of the team is a part of the ultimate plan, then why would competing on a less-then-"best" level not benefit them? 2. There are coaches among the wrestling ranks who understand that, while their primary purpose may be to coach their teams to reach their potential, the overall well-being of all wrestling programs also matters. There are coaches who understand that those teams who may not operate on a "best" level may want to compete against teams who are on the "best" level, occasionally. What about those teams listed above? Is there some overpowering reason that they should not have the opportunity to give their wrestlers a chance to compete against the well-coached athletes from ND? Do those teams not count in the big picture...or does it just come down to what happens on the "best" level that really matters? **** With no interest beyond the overall interest of wrestling, my hat is off to ND for taking action that benefits those wrestlers and programs that may perform at the present on a less then "best" level.

John Farr's Red Bank tournament in 1968 followed him to Chattanooga Central. It has been held countinuously since, with the exception of one snow-out (possibly two). The next invitational was initiated December of 1969 at Maplewood which followed GP West to Hillwood, then Whites Creek, then Brentwood and has run uninterrupted since its beginning. The Father Ryan Tournament was first held in January of 1970 and has been held uninterrupted since its beginning. Some oldtime wrestling fans may be confusing the Ryan Tournament with the NIL Tournament which was held at Ryan at least once, maybe twice, from 1966 through 1969. To restate: 1968-69 Red Bank Inv./ 1969-70 moved to Chattanooga Central/ It continues. 1969-70 (Dec.) Maplewood Inv./ 1970-71 moved to Hillwood/ 1980-81 moved to Whites Creek/ 1987-88 moved to Brentwood High (GP West)/ It continues. 1969-70 (Jan.) Father Ryan Inv./ It continues. I believe John Gorham started the Bellevue Tournament in the early '70s. It continued there until Bellevue students, wrestling program, and wrestling coach moved to Hillwood in 1980-81, at which time the Bellevue Tournament replaced the original Hillwood Tournament. The Overton Tournament was initiated a year or so after Ronnie Carter became the coach which, I believe, was near the mid-1970s. There may have been other tournaments in the early to mid-70s, but none that I'm aware of that have been held annually since that time to the present time.

bwoodbruins08, Where have you guys been all season? We haven't heard much from you. Congrats on the D success for the season. Keep it up through the playoffs.