mackie

If you want to make the argument that Siegel's schedule is tougher then Oakland's this season, then I'm fine with that (and I agree with it as well). But claiming that Oakland played a "cupcake" schedule is a bit of a stretch. Could it have been tougher, sure. Did they play a load of less talented A or AA teams , no. They played one AA team in Ezell, and this year I would classify them as a cupcake. The only other cupcake that I can see would be Whites Creek, which Oakland plays almost every year and more times then not Whites Creek is not going to be a cupcake. There were 4 other opponents that were at or around .500. I don't think you can call any of those 4 teams cupcakes. Once again were they as strong as some of Siegel's oponents, no but all 4 of them have decent programs with a respectable amount of talent and athleticism that allow them to compete at a higher level then "cupcake". Plus, your comment about Father Ryan completely compromises the validity of your "facts". Have you seen Father Ryan play? I haven't, but I know they have a Mr basketball finalist who has signed to play at Princeton in Connolly, they just won the Middle/East Region Championship, and they have been in the Division II AP top 10 for most of the season. So I don't think that your comment of "terrible private school team" holds water. Additionally, I think you have to add Alcoa as a "flaw" on Siegel's schedule. Plus, you forgot to include Siegel's season opening opponent Lincoln Co (5-20), which I think would also be considered a "flaw". I know it was a Hall of Fame game, but if your going to include the W in your record then you got to include the opponent when analyzing the schedule.

Ice, I don't think SiegelGrad was trying to imply that the Stars should purposely try to start playing half court, possesion control games. I believe the intent was to acknowledge that there will be some teams (i.e. Oakland) that can impose their will (and style of play) to limit the Stars scoring chances by controlling possession and/or tempo. When this occurs, the Stars are going to be forced to get the most out of each possession. On to the second point. Let's not equate athletic Memphis basketball teams/players with a playground type "run and gun" style. The Memphis basketball greats (teams and players) are so much more than "run and gun". The great ones out of Memphis possess the ability to "run and gun" due to their great athleticism, but they are also true ball players who have a tremendous basketball I.Q. No question that succesful Memphis teams can run, but they also have the ability to get the ball in the hands of their go-to guys and get baskets in a half court setting when desperately needed. Which gets me back to the first point, Siegel will eventually match up with a team that is good in transition defense and won't turn the ball over thereby limiting Siegel's opportunities for easy transition baskets. When this happens, they will need the ability to get their playmakers the ball in positions at which they can be successful in converting half-court possessions into points. Additionally, let's remember that a half-court game is more than just on the offensive end. As mentioned above, a good ball-handling team will force Siegel to play solid half-court defense. If they can't (or choose not to) be disciplined in half-court defense, then opposing teams will exploit that and convert possessions into baskets. When baskets are falling for the opposition, it will be hard for the Stars to get out and run in transition offense. Just my 2-cents worth. And for what it's worth, I wish there were more posters like OP. I've followed this board for a number of years and I wanted to say that I appreciate OP's contributions. While unwavering in his support for the Patriots, he does a pretty good job of being objective in his opinions regarding his team as well as the others. He also includes a little bit of support/insight behind his opinions and doesn't just throw around emotional thoughts, accusations, or heresay. So from a former Warrior, thanks OP for trying to be somewhat level headed and rational when it comes to 7-AAA b-ball.

The "obvious idiots" that vote on district MVP (as well as the all-district team) are the head coaches. Keith Ramsey missed the majority of district games his senior season. As a result, I don't believe he was ever truly considered to be in the running for MVP his senior year. I'm going to assume that Oden's attitude prevented enough coaches from voting for him. The next logical choice that season would have been Chaisson. Blackman finished regular season 4th last season (not 5th). Siegel finished much higher at 3rd. Alex averaged 17 pts, 4.5 boards, and 2.5 assists. Alex was by far the most valuable player to his team. Delaney and Cutter may have been more talented, but if either one of them were taken away from their respective teams, the effects wouldn't of been as detrimental if Alex was removed from his. I guess it all goes back to the classic argument of how people define "MVP".

I too will miss watching Alex and Paul in Blackman uniforms. Both of them progressed tremendously over their careers and both are tremendous young men that have my respect. I believe Paul really started improving body and foot control towards the end of the season. If he had one more year, I think he could have really become a highly efficient post player. Alex has matured greatly over his 4 years at Blackman. He spent most of this year learning how to be a leader and I think he did a solid job of it from a "lead by example" standpoint. I think he can continue to improve on his vocal leadership. I thought he adapted as well as could be expected to being the go to guy. Just curious, what exactly is it that Turnham did not "allow" Alex to do? It appeared to me that Alex had the green light to shoot, penetrate, or pass as he saw fit. While I only saw Blackman 8 or so times this year, I never saw Turnham limit Alex's options when he had the ball.

Additionally, I would like to add that it always interests me when people bring up the notion of "if so & so had only kept playing" or "if so & so had only stayed at school X" then they would have been better. For instance, everyone always brings up the notion that if the original Siegel guys had stayed at Oakland then they would have been State champs. I discredit that statement completely due to the fact that if those guys had stayed at Oakland there would have been a high likelihood that they would have constantly butted heads with Coach King. The big picture is this, talented players leaving programs (whether removed by the coach or quitting) happens in all sports and at all levels. There have been numerous, well publicized examples here locally: MTSU men??™s bball (Vogelsburg, Sain, Smith, etc.), MTSU women??™s bball (Abney), MTSU football (Starting D-lineman Mosley), and even my beloved Titans have dealt with it through all of this Pacman crap. It comes down to 2 questions: 1) is the athlete willing to sacrifice the time and energy required of them, and 2) is the athlete willing to discipline themselves both academically and socially so as to not be a disruption to the team. If an athlete answers no to either one of those, then player turnover will inevitably occur.

TD, I agree with the sentiments of your last two paragraphs, although I think it may be appropriate to scale back to only picking #1 & #8 for "obvious reasons". I think anything beyond 1 and 8 is a complete shot in the dark. Too many variables such as transfers, injuries, dismissals (might want to check on your list of returning Warriors), etc. occur over the summer to even attempt a specific ranking for teams 2-7. I suspect that a 9-5 district record may be good enough for 2nd place next year. Along with that, I think it is entirely possible for the 7th place team to have a 6-8 record. I wouldn??™t be at all surprised if only 2 games separated teams 2 through 7. With that said, allow me to clarify some things about your first paragraph. It is no secret that Turnham expects responsibility and accountability from his players. Things as simple as getting to practice on time, being at shoot-around on time, behaving in school, attending and passing classes, etc. Only three guys have been removed from the team since Turnham has been there. The remaining detractors have decided to quit for various reasons (pursue rap/dance careers, pursue other sports, takes too much hard work, worried about the appearance of a younger player starting over them, takes time away from girlfriend / making money / hanging out on the corner). Along that line, Mr. Hicks chose to be a no show for a team camp in the early part of the summer going into his junior year. He was given ample opportunities to rejoin the team after missing the camp, but remained a no show for the rest of the team??™s summer and fall workouts/activities. At no point in time did Mr. Hicks make any real attempt to rejoin the team, and on top of that, he chose not to even try-out this past year. Phelix Hicks situation had nothing to do with Turnham not letting him play. Could Blackman have had more talent on their roster in the past? Maybe Would they have been more successful? Probably not due to disruptions and distractions With that said, I think Blackman and Coach Turnham have done quite well with the guys who have decided to actually want to be a part of the program. I??™m a stats guy so I??™ll throw some things out there for you guys. In the past 4 district seasons (which saw great dominance from Siegel and Oakland), Blackman has done the following??¦. Blackman has the third best district record of all 8 teams (Oakland 47-9, Siegel 36-20, Blackman 29-27) Blackman??™s average district finish is third best (Oakland avg. finish = 1.5, Siegel = 3.0, Blackman = 4.3) Blackman and Oakland are the only district teams to have winning records against White Co. (both are 7-1) Blackman has .500 or better records against Riverdale (5-3), White Co. (7-1), Cookeville (4-4), and Warren Co. (8-0) Blackman is second in average points given up per game at 55.4 (Oakland is first @ 48.8) *I choose to compare district stats as opposed to total season stats due to great variations in each teams non-district strength of schedule.

Got any statistics to support your position, or is it just based on observation? A couple of years ago I was interested in how the districts/regions/sectionals compared to each other so I took the strength of schedule rankings as well as success rankings from Coacht and played with them in excel to get an average ranking for each of the districts/regions/sectionals. I would be more than happy to give this year a look if you guys would be interested. I have a feeling that District 7 will come out better then you think. Won't be able to get to it till Monday though.

etcoach, I like the analogy. I understand your sentiments and agree completely. I never once imagined that this thread would actually change the way TSSAA does things, just wondered if I was missing something as to why the draw was being held so late. I guess we can all still dream though.

There are basically two general arguments here: 1) The blind draw vs. a ranking system of some kind 2) If having a blind draw, why not have it as early as possible As originally mentioned, the blind draw vs. a ranking system is a topic that can be debated ad nauseum. Unless a true and accurate ranking system can be generated then we are just spinning our wheels. I think the wide variety in competition level across the state makes it very difficult (not impossible) to create a fair ranking system. No offense, but rankings based on the AP polls would be worse then a blind draw in my opinion. Most of the AP voters have only seen teams in there geographic area. It has been my experience that AP voting is typically based on record, tradition, and geographic favorites. With all that said, the second argument of having the blind draw as early as possible isn't so evenly debated in my opinion. I just don't see any reason to have the blind draw as late as they are having it. Does anyone else see any positives to waiting this long? My only guess as to why is that I don't think it is coincidence that the draw is being held on Saturday (day of girls championships). Maybe TSSAA feels like they will attract some of the guys teams and coaches to the games saturday night. I can't imagine that being a reality as I am sure the guys teams will be headed back home as soon as possible for a Saturday afternoon practice. Oh well.

As has been discussed previously on these boards, the blind draw pairings are back this year for the first time since 1997. The blind draw has it's positives and negatives just like any other pairing system. The most common argument against the blind draw is the potential for the 2 best teams to be paired prior to the finals. While this argument is somewhat valid, it is also a valid argument against the pre-determined blind draw that was used from 1998 to 2007. Therefore anything short of a comprehensive statewide ranking system will in all likelihood have the potential to pair the 2 best teams against each other prior to the finals. My great objection (along with my suggestion) is this: If you are going to have a blind draw, do it as soon as practical after the substate games. As it stands now, the boys wait 5 days after their substate games for the draw. This leaves only 3 days (one of which is Sunday) for coaches and teams to prepare for their first opponent. By having the blind draw earlier, 3 things can be accomplished: 1) It allows the best "team" more time to prepare and potentially beat their first round opponent that may very well have greater individual talent or athleticism. 2) It acts as a slight equalizer for the situation where the 2 most talented teams are paired against each other in the first round by putting an emphasis on preparation and adherence to a gameplan. 3) It also allows time for coaches to at least acquire game film on (and maybe even begin to prepare for) their potential semi-final opponents. Just my two-cents worth.

Not exactly true, Riverdale has had appearances in the State tourny by both boys and girls teams. The Riverdale boys (led by Tim Corder) made it to the State tourny in 85-86 losing to Memphis Westwood in the Semi-finals. Granted that was over 20 years ago though. I was only able to verify (article in the Murfreesboro Post) the 85-86 appearance by the boys, my memory tells me that they might have made it to State one other time while the Corders were playing in the mid 80s, but not real sure about that. Anybody else remember? And before any Sparta people get on here let's clarify that 2P is only talking about Boro teams. We all know that Sparta has had multiple appearances by both their boys and girls teams.

Adding to Treyvols sentiments, I must say that it is pretty irresponsible to just come out on a public forum with "rumors" about coaches leaving. While I can't speak directly for the Cookeville or Smyrna situations, I can definatively state that Turnham will be in the captain's chair at Blackman next year. I believe that all three coaches have acquired tenure at their respective schools, so unless you have heard something directly from the coaches about possibly leaving, then I would suggest keeping the rumors to yourself. It's one thing to state that there are specific indicators that lend themselves to keeping an eye on a potential coaching change (such as the case with Mooney's son graduating), but to insinuate that you have some kind of insider information that these coaches "are done at the end of the season" is careless at best and an attempt to just stir things up at worst. All of us know that players, parents, administrators, etc. all read these forums to some extent. It would be a shame to create anxiety or disruption among any program as a result of posting an unsubstantiated rumor about a potential coaching change. Especially if a program is still playing ball as is the case with Blackman. These types of comments have the potential to create great distractions between coaches and administrators as well as coaches and players. Such a shame for a kid to be worried about if his coach is leaving him as a result of a comment based on pure hearsay.

Congratulations to Alex Carter for receiving the District 7-AAA MVP this afternoon. The DNJ is reporting that the 7-AAA all district team is as follows: All-District 7-AAA 2007-2008 FIRST TEAM Alex Carter, Blackman (MVP) Tyler Cutter, Siegel Kyle Delaney, White Co. D??™Juan Epps, Oakland Xavier Smith, Lebanon SECOND TEAM Judah Akers, Cookeville Tyler Green, White Co. Chris Weitzel, Warren Co. Kerry Hammonds, Siegel Michael Young, Riverdale THIRD TEAM Paul Stephens, Blackman DeAndre Maupins, Oakland Kendall Harding, Oakland Aaron Puckett, White Co. Joey Lee, Riverdale HONORABLE MENTION DeShawn Smith, Blackman COACH OF THE YEAR Eric Mitchell, White Co.

More importantly, the first round tourny matchup scenarios are this: White Co. hosts Warren Co. Oakland hosts Riverdale, Lebanon, or Blackman Siegel hosts Lebanon, Blackman, or Riverdale Cookeville hosts Blackman, Lebanon or Riverdale Cookeville may have to travel to Blackman if finish 5th Blackman goes to Cookeville, Siegel, or possibly Oakland if they lose three way tie-breaker Blackman may host Cookeville if finishes 4th Lebanon goes to Cookeville, Siegel, or Oakland Riverdale goes to Oakland, Siegel, or Cookeville Warren Co. goes to White Co. With the above scenarios possible, interested in hearing which match-up you would prefer for your team in the first round.

Squad, After head-to-head, the tie-breaker moves to record against the first place team in the district. So if Blackman wins Friday and Cookeville loses, then Blackman would have the tie-breaker over Cookeville by virtue of their win over Sparta. Additionally, here is the run-down on all the scenarios in the district (I think this is all-inclusive, but feel free to point out anything that is inaccurate or left out): White Co - Clinched first place Oakland - Clinched second place (holds tie-breaker against Siegel as a result of beating Sparta) Siegel - finishes 3rd: if wins OR if loses and Cookeville loses finishes 4th: if loses and Cookeville wins Cookeville - finishes 3rd: if wins and Siegel loses finishes 4th: if wins and Siegel wins OR if loses and Blackman loses finishes 5th: if loses and Blackman wins Blackman - finishes 4th: if wins and Cookeville loses finishes 5th: if lose and Lebanon loses finishes 6th: if lose and Lebanon wins and Riverdale loses **finishes in 3-way tie for 5th: if loses, Lebanon wins, and Riverdale wins (not real sure about the 3-way tie breaker, I know they have used a series of coin flips in the past, but don't know if that is still accurate (could finish 5, 6, or 7 depending on tiebreaker) Lebanon - finishes 5th: if wins and Blackman loses and Riverdale loses finishes 6th: if lose and Riverdale loses OR if wins and Blackman wins finishes 7th: if loses and Riverdale wins **finishes in 3-way tie for 5th: if wins, Blackman loses, and Riverdale wins (not real sure about the 3-way tie breaker, I know they have used a series of coin flips in the past, but don't know if that is still accurate (could finish 5, 6, or 7 depending on tiebreaker) Riverdale - finishes 6th: if wins and Lebanon loses finishes 7th: if lose **finishes in 3-way tie for 5th: if wins, Blackman loses, and Lebanon wins (not real sure about the 3-way tie breaker, I know they have used a series of coin flips in the past, but don't know if that is still accurate (could finish 5, 6, or 7 depending on tiebreaker) Warren Co - finishes 8th

85, I suspect you are correct in stating that the stats would tilt rather strongly if we went back farther, but I was just interested in checking up on what spartan had originally claimed (not to mention the fact that I only have stats back to 01-02 on my computer). Not trying to discredit any of White County's accomplishments in any way. I have a tremendous respect for White County and their basketball program. I had the pleasure (displeasure at the time) of driving up from the Boro and playing against Jolly, Gribble & the gang. I've always found WC players, fans, and coaches to be competitively cordial. I don't post much, but I have followed the 7AAA boards since 2001 and I find 85 and his/her support of White County to be well thought out and fairly level headed in comparison to some of the other 7AAA posters. I don't see any difference in 85 bringing up past WC championships or Oakland people discussing their rich history or Siegel discussing their two state tourny bids from previous years.

I don't have an iron in the fire for either team. I'm kind of just a stickler for details. So I did as spartan said and went back and checked out the past 6 years and it looks like White has only won at Cookeville 1 time (last season by 20) in the past 6 tries. Also, in those 6 seasons (including the first game this year), Cookeville leads the series 9 to 4. Not saying White won't win tomorrow (I feel that they will), just wanted to see what the historical statistics actually were.

Bragg and McCarver are both seniors this year.

When issues like this arise, I like to look at statistics for possible answers. At the end of the regular season, I compiled the CoachT Rankings for all the AAA teams. I grouped each team into their respective district, region, and substate. I then found the average rank of the teams in each district, region, and substate. Before presenting the results let me first state that I recognize there are some concerns to the true accuracy in the CoachT rankings, but it is the only ranking system that incorporates all 113 AAA schools. Just so we are all on the same page, Districts 1-6 are considered East TN Districts 7-12 are considered Middle TN Districts 13-16 are considered West TN The results for each district are as follows (in order of highest to lowest avg. rank): District 6 - 27.50 District 9 - 40.14 District 7 - 41.25 District 8 - 45.43 District 15 - 50.25 District 12 - 51.86 District 16 - 53.13 District 4 - 56.00 District 5 - 56.00 District 3 - 59.75 District 1 - 62.44 District 14 - 64.67 District 10 - 69.00 District 11 - 73.33 District 2 - 74.17 District 13 - 85.75 The Region results are: Region 4 (districts 7&8) - 43.20 Region 3 (districts 5&6) - 44.60 Region 8 (districts 15&16) - 51.69 Region 5 (districts 9&10) - 55.53 Region 2 (districts 3&4) - 57.88 Region 6 (districts 11&12) - 63.94 Region 1 (districts 1&2) - 67.13 Region 7 (districts 13&14) - 73.10 The Substate Results are: Substate 2 (Districts 5,6,7,8) - 43.76 Substate 3 (Districts 9,10,11,12) - 59.87 Substate 4 (Districts 13,14,15,16) - 59.92 Substate 1 (Districts 1,2,3,4) - 62.35 In the interest of clarity, I will group the districts into East, Middle, and West. East TN (comprised of districts 1,2,3,4,5, & 6) - Avg. team rank was 55.98 Middle TN (comprised of districts 7,8,9,10,11, & 12) - Avg. team rank was 53.50 West TN (comprised of districts 13,14,15, & 16) - Avg. team rank was 68.41 What does this mean you ask? If someone from out of state were to look at these numbers they would conclude that Middle Tn and East Tn are very competitve while West Tn is a distant third. We all know that isn't the case. So what's going on? By now you should trust that I have actually done the numbers, so I will spare you additional stats to support my conclusions. I ran two additional sets of numbers: one averaged the top 4 teams and the other looked at the bottom 4 teams of each district. These results clearly indicated that the worst teams in Middle TN districts were significantly better then the worst teams in West Tn districts. Both Middle and West were significantly better then East TN districts. In addition, districts 4,7,9, 12, & 15 had the highest average rankings of the 4 best teams in their districts. Pretty evenly spread out, not sure it reveals much of anything. Districts 7 and 9 have the best average team ranking, the best top 4 team ranking, and the best bottom 4 team ranking. Statistically, these two districts were the most competitive top to bottom this year. In looking at these two districts I would tend to agree with what these statistics reveal. As a result of these numbers, I don't believe in the argument that West TN schools play better competition. It is my conclusion that on a night in and night out basis (top to bottom), Middle TN plays the toughest competition within class AAA. It is evident that there was no statistical "dominance" from West TN districts this year in AAA. So why have they won 6 of the last 10 state championships and had 9 of the last 20 championship game participants? I credit it to two factors: 1) Depth of talent: While West TN is a hot bed for top D-I talent, the rest of the state is comparable in top tier D-I prospects (i.e. Josh Bone, Brandan Wright, Jamont Gordon, Cory Brewer, Lee Humphrey) However, the difference is in the depth of that talent. Take this years finalists in Shelbyville and Hamilton. It is my opinion that if you took Hamilton's second five and played Shelbyville's second five that Hamilton would win 8 out of 10. Same for the third set of five. Role players from top West TN teams are better then role players from East and Middle TN teams. 2) I think there is something to say about the passion of the players in West TN. While it is imposible to measure statistically, for whatever reason the majority of West TN kids seem to have an edge when it comes to downright grit, determination, commitment level, passion, longing, and drive to get better at the game. As a general rule, this is something that in my opinion is lacking in Middle and East TN. Finally, I would like to state that all of this is up for discussion and I respect any comments that might be added. Ultimately, I'm just trying to get everyone to think a little deeper about how the the great state of Tennessee can continue to improve Boys H.S. basketball.

Hoolie, Is that a fact or a rumor?

Coach Fitzgerald had some talented and athletic teams in the early to mid 90's. I'm not sure when their last year was, but I'm pretty sure some of those guys didn't play in the summer of 98. Marion would have just finished his Sophomore year at Vincennes University in Inidiana on his way to UNLV for his Junior year. Fitzgerald, Hassell, and Maybin all would have just finished their freshmen years at UT, AP, and Louisville respectively. And Slay would have just finished his junior year of HS on his way to Oak Hill for his senior season. I know they went to the Big Time Tourny in 1996 because Maybin is in the Big Time Tourny record book for scoring the ninth most points in a tourny (181 pts in 1996) and second in most free throws made in a tourny (62 in 1996) see link below http://adidasbigtime.Unapproved Website/content.as...D=976&CID=35258

Thanks for the link. Where is the district tournament held and when is it?

Wanted to try and get out to see the Blaze play before the season is over and was wanting to know if someone could inform me on their remaining schedule. Thanks for the help.

gomab and CCB, I think this topic has really come to a head in the past few years. I would really like to see some intelligent discussion about this article and how it correlates to Tennessee high schoolers. Here is my perspective. (Part I: AAU emergence in TN) I have coached both summer and high school ball for about 7 years. I played for 4 years at my high school in middle tennessee (94-97)and I played on summer teams during this time as well. At that point in time, AAU was basically the only game in town as far as summer ball (unless you were truly elite). AAU teams went to their State tournament qualifying event and if you advanced then great, if not then you had to move on to baseball or individual workouts for the remainder of the summer because you could only be officially registered with a single AAU team. (Exception: I think there was a rule that if you qualified for the national tournament that you could "pick up" a couple of players.) At this point, AAU in TN was beginning to advance in the form of "all-star" teams. Meaning that players from the area high schools would join up in the summer and play on one team. Still, very few teams were "traveling" teams for two reasons: 1) the funding/sponsorship wasn't there and 2) there was not near the number of tournaments to play in that were not true AAU events. The exception to this would have been the Tennessee Travelers and one or two Memphis programs. Over the next few years, programs such as the Tennessee Thunder, Mid-State Ballerz, and a few others began to develop. Notice I said PROGRAMS and not teams. The approach to AAU began to change from a single team put together by friends and parents to complete programs that sought to "recruit" (for lack of a better term) select players from different areas. These programs focused on getting kids early and keeping them in their program year after year. Also, at this time tournaments, shoot-outs, classics, etc. began popping up all over TN and surrounding states. These tournaments were not AAU sanctioned so all types of teams were welcomed. High school teams, AAU teams, summer programs, and any group of players that paid their entry fee could compete. Age group bracketing began to diminish and lines were blurred as to if this team was a 16U team or that team was a 13U team. Many young teams were playing up to compete against better competition and there were a few who competed down to try and win. My point is that if a kid wanted to play in a tournament every weekend of the summer he most likely could and it hasn't always been like that. Because of the rise of tournaments and the willingness of people like gomab to maintain a program year after year, summer ball has become more of a focal point in TN. Part II: AAU and HS Ball in TN coming as soon as work schedule permits