RedRobin1

In order raised in your post: 2008: Ryan was not a region game: Knox Webb was 0-5 against the big boys. 2007 (i.e. the year before): Knox Webb did indeed make the playoffs (as did every single team in D2-AA); Knox Webb lost in the first round. 2006: Knox Webb did indeed "win State", but they weren't playing with the big boys then, either - D2 had 3 divisions then and Knox Webb played in the middle division (Beat ECS for the title). 2009: If Knox Webb was so loaded, why did Meske choose this particular year to move down and beat the tar out of the schools half Knox Webb's size? If they were as good as you say, wouldn't an awesome program like Knox Webb want to "man up" and "find a way to compete" against the teams in its own division rather than moving down to pile up gold balls? 2010: Too bad we will never know how well those all-star players could have competed against some real competition. Number of players on the team: Knox Webb has so few because of the football culture at that school; most kids don't want to try to compete with the Blances and Kelly Jrs. of the world for playing time. Virtually every other team in D2-A have no choice - they have so few kids on their rosters because they have about half the boys as does Knox Webb. If enrollment numbers are so worthless, why are the D1 classes based exclusively on those numbers? If you applied the multiplier to all the schools in D2-A, Knox Webb would be at least a 3A school while it's competition would be mostly single A. How fair is that? Your comment that the tiny schools should "man up" and "find a way to compete" with Webb: hilarious and incredibly hypocritical given that Knox Webb choose to move down after getting skunked in the region during 2008 rather than "manning up" and "finding a way to compete" against schools that are very similar to Knox Webb in size, facilities and philosophy. You can pretend that Webb belongs in D2-A all you want and can probably fool most of the readers on this board - anyone who knows much about the schools in D2 (both A and AA), however, knows that Webb is much more similar to the big boys than it is to the small religion-based schools against which it currently competes in D2-A. Webb has a good program and Meske is a good coach - too bad they don't see fit to challenge themselves by playing against competition similar to themselves. Man up, Dude, and find a way to compete!!!

That's fine - just ignore the fact that Knox Webb did not win a single region game the last season (2008) that they played against schools similar to it in size, facilities and philosophy. Let's just celebrate the fact that they are 31-1 against region opponents during the regular season and 13-1 in the playoffs since moving down to play against schools that literally have about 100 boys in the entire high school. Quite the amazing coincidence that Meske started coachin' em up so much better since moving to the small (i.e. tiny) school division! Pray tell - what did he change in his coaching during that magic summer of 2009? Bring home the gold, Spartans - that is the true spirit of competition!!!

Best wishes and good luck!

Not trying to fuss at you, but wondering why you have not interviewed a single D2 coach in all of that? Did you try and they just were not amenable, or do you have no interest in D2? There are some pretty darn good coaches and some pretty darn good teams on the D2 side - imho, any show that calls itself "diversified" would cover that side as well as the D1 side. Good luck on your attempt at syndication - I have not yet had the opportunity to catch your show, but love the fact that you are doing it!!

Dividing line between D2-AA and D2-A is and has been, an enrollment of 500. Knox Webb has about 475. Ensworth and Brentwood Academy are also "placed" in D2-A based on the numbers, but they both choose to "play up" since they apparently don't relish pounding on schools like Kings Academy and Ezell-Harding. Knox Webb initially also chose to "play-up", since it is very similar to most of the schools in D2-AA. Webb found out pretty quickly that they weren't gonna win many gold balls when playing against similar schools, so they dropped down to D2-A, where they can win one every year. True sportsmen, what?? Prior to Webb joining D2-A, it was comprised exclusively of much smaller, religious-based schools. It still is, other than Webb (and ECS, which is a religious-based school that is about the same size as Webb). TSSAA could solve this and make a much more even playing field for the D2-A schools by simply making the enrollment cutoff 400. They just don't seem to care that everybody other than Webb starts each season hoping for a chance at the silver, not the gold, ball. It ain't just coaching, guys - Webb has tremendous advantages over every other school in D2-A.

A more apt comparison to Knox Webb leaving D2-AA for D2-A would be the Vols leaving the SEC (schools which are substantially similar to UT) to compete in (and dominate in virtually all sports) the Southern Conference (comprised of schools which are similar to each other, but substantially dissimilar to UT). How you think those Southern Conference teams such as the Mocs would like that?

Still gotta get through BA, Ryan and MBA in the regular season. Then probably play some of those same teams (along with Ensworth, Baylor, MUS and/or CBHS) in the playoffs. Ensworth has a recent history of getting thrashed in a regular season game (Baylor 3 years ago and BA last year) and then beating that same team in the playoffs. It's a tough gold ball to win - really hard to beat multiple good teams twice in a single season, but I love the way McCallie is looking and I wish them nothing but good fortune!

Hopefully, TSSAA will reclassify so that enrollments of 400 and up (it is now 500 and up) will have to play in D2-AA. That would move Knox Webb and ECS up and allow the other teams currently in D2-A to actually have a chance at a championship. I know nothing about ECS, but I do know three things: 1. Knox Webb has virtually nothing in common with the vast majority of the current D2-A schools, which are mostly religious based and much much much smaller than Webb, 2. Knox Webb actually has more students than does Ensworth and about the same as does Brentwood Academy, both of which successfully compete on the D2-AA level; and 3. After being totally inept in D2-AA (they did not win one region game in 2008, their last year of playing with the schools their size), Knox Webb moved down and has enjoyed beating up on the much smaller schools so much that they have won a gold ball in EVERY year save one. They tend to enjoy letting us all know that they "dominate" these smaller schools in other sports as well. Bottom line is that a program like Knox Webb is not going to voluntarily move up to play against similarly situated schools- it will take some action by TSSAA to make this happen. I have the sneaking suspicion, however, that the TSSAA really doesn't give a cr-p about what happens in D2, so I am not going to hold my breath on this one.

Sims had an awesome night - he is one heck of an athlete! My bad guys - I thought this was a forum to promote discussion of issues relating to high school football in the State of Tennessee. The topic was why the Memphis teams do not do as well as some of the "East Tennessee" teams. Most of the discussion was regarding the perceived shortcomings of specific Memphis schools. I have noticed that in D1 football, many of the championships seem to be won either by privates or by open-zoned publics. The D1 privates have a draconian multiplier applied to their classification enrollment and they are often derided on these boards for a perceived unfair advantage every time one of them wins a gold ball. I tried to start a discussion regarding what effect, if any, the open-zoned aspect has on a team's competitiveness. I think this is a legitimate topic for discussion. I am now coming to understand that the reason this topic is not discussed is because to do so subjects one to immediate ridicule and derision from supporters of certain teams. Moreover, and worse, it subjects the poster's program to outrageous and unjustified attacks. I never stated that the open-zoned aspect is the only, or primary, reason why a few schools continually win championships, nor did I ever disrespect any particular program (read what I actually typed, without inserting the suspect motivations which some of you attribute to me). Unfortunately, that doesn't stop attacks on a school that I support, even though my school has absolutely nothing to do with this topic. I give up. I will no longer seek to raise what I consider to be a valid topic for discussion on these boards; the open-zoned people have declared the subject off limits and I guess everyone else is fine with that.

McCallie has not beaten Ensworth, either with Potter or without him. I don't know about back when Bowers was at MBA.

I am really looking forward to the trip to Chattanooga. Not only are the Blue Tornado wonderful hosts, but the visitor's stands have one of the best sunset views I have ever witnessed. I remember like it was yesterday a game at this venue between these two teams when McCallie controlled pretty much the entire game, but Ensworth came back to kick a field goal on the final play to win by a point. I hope and expect that Friday's game will be as exciting!

Awesome win - way to go Blue Tornado. Somewhat lost in all the Blackman/BG controversy was the fact that McCallie lost to this BG team by 4 points last year at home and has now beat them on the road. Quality win for a quality program.

Just curious, pepvol - how does a team "buy" a championship?

That was in response to someone posting falsehoods about specific students, and I did not and do not believe that to be appropriate. In fact, I hope we are all in agreement that spreading falsehoods about identified students goes way beyond the boundries contemplated by CoachT. That is far different, in my opinion, than calling a former coach names because I disagree with his opinion.

BBD1976 - I never said that it was the only reason, just that it might be one of the reasons - in fact, empirical evidence indicates that it may be a factor since the open-zones invariably do better at the championship level. Sorry to intrude on the Memphis bashing - just thought I would put in my two cents worth, but I will gladly crawl back into my hole and let y'all just keep shouting at the Senator and kwc that their programs need more discipline and better coaching. Good luck against MBA tonight! I expect BA will win by a couple of touchdowns, but I guess it just depends on how much money each bring with them to the game.

Funny - I don't recall typing (or thinking) any of that. In fact, I think you are simply making it up to prove your point. Which actually proves my point. But whatever... you are free to represent CPA any way that you see fit.

Reading through this thread, I am appalled that this atmosphere of hatred and angst exists at CPA. Though my wife and I chose, years ago, to send our kids to a different private, I always held good feelings about CPA; those feelings were bolstered by friends who had kids there. Those good feelings have changed, and if you think it is from people like Coach Brooks posting on this board, you should probably look in the mirror. If you are representative of the "modern breed" of CPA supporters, it will likely not be long until the basketball players are the only students at the school.

WOW - just WOW. Talk about a hate-filled screed - you take the cake, dude. I don't understand how "throwing money at football" can win games (maybe $100 per first down or $1,000 per touchdown???), but that is in no way related to this topic. Y'all had been filling this thread with all of your reasons why the Memphis teams (including, but not only, Whitehaven) doesn't have as many championships as the teams from "the East" (specifically mentioning Maryville, Alcoa and , in at least one post, Greeneville). The reasons, according to all you experts, include how the Memphis teams are lacking in such things as "discipline", "coaching", etc. You seem to have no problems with anyone pointing out these supposed shortcomings or with throwing them out whether they can be interpreted as "disrespectful". I then raise the point that one difference that I have noticed is that the D1 schools with open-zoning tend to win most of the D1 championships. Each of the three schools mentioned from "the East" is open-zoned. To my knowledge, the Memphis schools are not. You freak out, accuse me of disrespecting your precious Maryville team (re-read my posts - there is no disrespect whatsoever - in fact, I made it a point to state how much I do respect that program). I then invited y'all to show me where my theory is wrong. You did not do so - instead you attack and show massive disrespect for a program that is totally unrelated to this topic, but that you know I support. Very mature of you, sir. I stick by my theory that the open-zoned schools have a demonstrable advantage over the traditionally-zoned schools in D1 athletics. I invite mature discussion on this topic, since it seems relevant to the issues raised by others in this thread.

I never said (or meant) that open zone = gold ball. What I said was that it appears that open zone = better odds of a gold ball. There is no doubt in my mind that Maryville has one of the best hc and staffs in the entire nation. They are not, however, that much better than all of the staffs that they routinely beat in pursuit of the gold ball. The quality of the staff, and the phenomenal success, makes kids want to go there - under the rules, they can, no matter where they happen to live. It is simply not like that at all D1 schools. In my opinion, this makes a difference. I think the historical statistics, in all D1 divisions, backs this up. Maryville is clearly the most successful 6A program in recent Tennessee history. Whitehaven, Oakland, etc. have also had much success and deserve utmost respect, especially since they have zoning restrictions that simply do not apply to Maryville and other open-zoned schools. This is not a zero sum game - one can (and should be) respect one program without showing disrespect for another.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Whitehaven is a magnet school, a STEM Academy or offers Russian. Senator?

Not pointing fingers or diminishing anything, pepvol. I have great respect for ANY AND EVERY team that wins a gold ball (or a silver ball, for that matter) - just pointing out my observation that things are not equal for teams across the State, using what I think are facts to back up that observation. What did I say that you think is factually inaccurate? I ask because I honestly want to know. I have sat with Whitehaven fans and had some awesome experiences watching some awesome football and don't see any need for people runnin' them down on these boards with essentially an "our 15-19 year old boys can beat your 15-19 year old boys" argument. Moreover, and more to the point, the subject was broached (not by me) as to why "the east" wins more gold balls than the rest of the state. Yes they have good coaching in the east, so does the middle and the west. The one difference that seems constant when picking Division 1 gold ball winners is that an open-zoned school usually prevails when it plays against a traditionally zoned school. Sorry if you don't like me pointing that out, but go back through the years and tell me if that is not a true statement. Feel free to point out any factual inaccuracy. If you think my saying that somehow diminishes your championships, then I suggest that you should perhaps view those championships in a different light - what I say should not matter in the least. Finally - I don't feel the need to defend my school, since the schools we play for the gold ball in our division are all playing by the same rules. I really don't see any adults on these boards bragging about it either, and that, in my mind, is a good thing. Good luck to Maryville this year as well! I edited to make clear that I do not consider any of the Maryville posters on this thread to brag about the incredible success their team has had over the years. In fact, I view each of these posters as very classy gentlemen. That said, they still don't seem to want want to engage my question about the open zoned v. traditional zoned schools.

I ask because it appears to me that may be a possible answer to all of those who are crowing about how many gold balls "the East" brings home each year as compared to the rest of the State. IMHO, there are great athletes and coaches all over the state. However, from what I can tell, the one common denominator of many of the programs that posters have been bragging on (Maryville, Alcoa, Greenville come to mind) is that they are all open-zoned. Success does breed success, but it seems a whole lot easier to maintain success if that success operates to "recruit" all the good players to a particular school. In my mind, these school simply are not playing by the same rules as most of their competition, yet everyone is so busy complaining about the advantages that the privates have that no one ever seems to realize that the open-zoned schools have the same advantages, at taxpayer expense!!!. They don't like it when I point it out, and I certainly mean no disrespect to these fine programs, but their braggadocio seems somewhat hollow to me when they are continually beating schools that gotta form the team from the kids that live near the school. Combine the best players each year from Whitehaven, Central and White Station (or, for that matter, from Blackman, Oakland, Smyrna and Riverdale) and see how many gold balls those teams would win. Good luck to the Memphis teams!

I feel for you, Senator - the only opinion some people on these boards will accept is their own. Serious question: Are the Memphis schools open-zoned(i.e. kids can go to whatever school they want) like Blount County, or traditionally-zoned (i.e. the kids supposed to go to the school for which they are zoned), like Rutherford County?

You're right - such is football. A big part of success with schools this size is utilizing the players who are available each game. Injuries are sometimes easier to overcome when they come early in the season so that the backup can get experience before the playoffs. Moreover - kids will step up and surprise - Ensworth lost their quarterback to injury just prior to the first round of the playoffs last year and was able to overcome with a sophomore linebacker who had never previously started a high school game at qb (he luckily escaped serious injury in the second round when an enraged defensive lineman tried to run him through a brick wall). Ensworth also lost two starters from last year who were expected to be gamechangers (on both sides of the ball) this year - a senior (leading tackler on last year's team) to a knee injury and a sophomore to a public school in Murfreesboro. They don't seem to be complaining about it. My bottom line is that these rivalry games (and I include BA, MBA and Ensworth) will be intense games, no matter who is strapping on the pads for each school.

Not sure how long, but it has been a while. Based on what I have seen from both teams thus far, I just like the way the Ryan defense matches up against the Big Red offense. I see a relatively low-scoring, 13-10 type of game. I also think McCallie will beat Baylor this year, though I have not seen either team live yet. MUS got beat bad early by BA (again) and really doesn't have much competition out west, but they always seem to improve more than most as the season matures. As for Ensworth/BA, I think they are both very strong - I wouldn't doubt that whichever loses the regular season game regroups and comes back to win the State.