FrecoFanatic

You seem to be misremembering that Josh was the developmental coach BEFORE Jake was the head coach. Jake is a great coach, but don’t act like Josh is riding Jake’s coat tails. Also, Joey was a part of state title teams before he came to Cleveland and there is a big difference between winning one or two titles and winning 6 in a row. That is like saying Saban is not the G.O.A.T because Bama had won National Titles before he took over. Don’t forget that Joey was on Jake’s staff as well as an assistant and was a huge part of the success those kids were having because he was coaching them.

Look at this way, if you take Josh and Joey out of the equation and leave Allan’s money, is Cleveland the best public school program in the state? Nope. If I decide not to spend tens of thousands of dollars hauling my kid all over the country to places other people will not go over the last 9 years, pushing him to challenge himself; if he only trained at the Jones Center during wrestling season 3 months a year, does he have the success he has had? If he was not willing to do all of the extra training when other kids are not, would he be as good as he is? Nope. So yes, I believe if we had the exact same group of kids, parents, and coaches and lived in ANY other part of the state and had a wrestling mat, this group of kids would be just as good. HCWC is great because Josh is a grinder. Cleveland is great because Joey is a grinder. It’s WHO they are and money did not make them that way. If you think either guy or any of these kids would not be giving the exact same effort other places, you are greatly mistaken. Was HCWC started with the help of Allan’s donations, sure, would it be what it was with a different set of coaches and athletes? Nope. We did not come to Cleveland years ago because of Allan Jones or the Jones Center. We came to Cleveland because of Josh and Joey. You can’t argue that because it is straight from the horses mouth. If either of them left and went somewhere else, we would be gone. You ask any other parent of our kids the same thing and see what they say. So Allan and the Cleveland community better take care of those two guys because if they left and Allan’s money stays, the dynasty would die quickly. Everyone throwing shade at us wants to act like money is the reason we are good. Like I said, keep believing that if you want to. And honestly, I don’t care if you do. I only posted the information I have because people that are uninformed need to know that the people who deserve the real credit are the kids, Josh, Joey, and their staff. Period.

I can respect this take. Of course the money Allan donates helps a lot. My whole point is that people who believe we have the success we do because of Allan’s support are very misguided. The vast majority of our fundraising goes to paying for our two high school team’s expenses. What people do not realize is that those programs are successful because of what happens in our room during the developmental years. The commitment level of our best kids and parents is not common. They are all paying their own way to everything we go to for our kids to find the toughest competition as well. I know other programs are not doing the same thing because I am at every one of those events and those programs are simply not sending kids (look at the wrestler lists). So yes, in that sense we are out working everyone. I also know Alan is not paying for all of us to be there. That is my gripe with those who believe somehow we have a silver spoon in our mouth. The other reason we are successful is because we are blessed with two of the very best coaches in the country. The vast majority of our kids on our high school team were developed from start to finish by our staff. Josh’s and Joey’s understanding of how to teach wrestling, motivate kids, plan development, etc…is at a level that is above what other developmental coaches are doing in my opinion. We train more, we travel more, we have the two best developmental coaches. That is why we are the most successful right now. Period. I am not saying there are not other coaches who are very good and very knowledgeable, I just believe the two we have are the best at doing it. What annoys me is that people give credit to a person who writes a check that makes it easier for our high school team to travel because it reduces our fundraising burden and also allows us to have a nice facility that we can use to give our kids a great experience as a part of that high school team for the fact that we have so many kids in our program who are great wrestlers. They are not great because of that money. Those kids are great because their commitment level is elite and they are coached by the two coaches who are the very best at what they do. People can keep on believing what they want, or they can pay attention and find a Josh Bosken and Joey Knox and start matching the commitment level our athletes and families have as a whole (and I sincerely hope that happens because it is good for our kids and the state as a whole to be ultra competitive).

If Landon is your son, he is a great kid and absolute stud. In fact, Pete and Summit are all great. Great program, with great coaches, great wrestlers, and great parents. I have a ton of respect for you guys.

Okay, I am going to regret this. What in the heck does that even mean? By “we,” I mean the Cleveland wrestling community (which I am a part of). By “us,” I mean the same thing. Lol.

It’s arrogance that we all pay our own fees and travel etc…? I will tell you what is arrogant, pretending like you know everything and not admitting that maybe you are wrong when someone calls you out about the fact that you don’t. YOU asked if Allan funds our entire program. I gave you the answer. So instead of trying to refute the facts I have given you about who funds what with actual evidence, you just call the response arrogant. Facts are not arrogant brother. Refute the facts with actual evidence instead of just saying “everyone knows it.”

No (point blank). Every kid pays club dues and high school team fees ($500 per kid), or, raises the money to do so. We host tournaments, have golf outings, host a pancake breakfast, sell signs, and have coaches that sleep in a tent every year to sell fireworks just like everyone else. Parents pay for team fees, gear, all entry fees, and all travel. We have a ton of local businesses that support our program. We have other alumni you generously give because they love our school and community. They see the culture we have and want to support it. Does Allan give money? Of course! Does he support our entire program. Nope. In fact, what he gives pales in comparison to what everyone else is contributing. He is not even our biggest individual giver! Heck, we have coaches who work for nothing so that money can be used for kids. Keep talking out of the side of your neck.

Fair enough.

No, we are denying that the money Allen and others give the program has the impact you think it does. We are also refuting your argument that somehow we are recruiting our way to success. There are great wrestlers with great talent all over the state. What makes Cleveland so successful is that Joey and Josh find all those kids who are not great and not naturally talented, and make them great because they are the best coaches around. Period.

Conflating talking points? I think you are confused about what that means and what a straw-man argument actually is. Please tell me how I am conflating talking points? YOU are the one arguing that facilities and money make great wrestlers great. I am the one arguing that great coaches and great culture is what makes wrestlers great. What is your response to that? “Dagestan has great coaches and a great wrestling culture.” Lol. Where is the “straw-man?” You call me stupid or entitled one more time and I am going to take it personal brother. How bout you make your case without doing that. We can debate our positions without calling someone stupid or entitled (I am neither), and if you can’t, it means your case is probably not worth making. While I disagree with your position and logic, I am respectful enough to debate its merits without disrespecting you personally.

Also, it’s sounds like you are recruiting people to Cleveland, not us. “Great partners, great coaches, great facilities, and great opportunities,” and “if only other high school kids had the same thing”. Lol. I can’t imagine why people who are wrestlers would want to move to Cleveland (that is sarcasm in case you missed it). Great partners are made. We have multiple state placers, state champs, and Fargo AAs that were training in Bosken’s garage when they started wrestling, and also in a barn with mats he paid for out of his own pocket that were being rolled out everyday. I remember when those kids were beginners and were taught how to drill, how to wrestle, how to be a great partner. When they started, we did not have a “room full of hammers.” No room starts that way. You think there is some partner fairy that just makes those kids appear out of thin air? It does not work like that if you want your club to be really good. And while I am at it, how many kids from our club transfer to other schools? We have kids that train during their developmental years and we teach them how to wrestle, instill winning values in them, take them all over the country, and what happens? They go to a prep school like Baylor or McCallie. Not casting stones because they have to do what is best for themselves, their family, and their situation. My point is, many kids we invest years into go to other schools. You know what we do? Root for them anyway because they are still family, and say next man up.

Again, we never said they were the only two who did so. What I said is they are the best coaches and that is why they are getting the best results. Also, if Allen is paying for any portion of the trips I have taken all over the country for the last 9 years with my son, I sure as heck have not seen that money. YOU keep making my point. YOU asked “how are we different?” YOU pointed out that other coaches are coaching hard and traveling. So why are we winning (and don’t say transfers and force me to put the dozens of state placers and champs that started in our beginner program on here)? It is simple, Joey and Josh are the best at what they do in TN. Period. You can call that arrogance, but they have the trophies and D1 wrestlers in the volume necessary to prove it. Edit: Kell said it best: it’s not that other coaches are not doing things, Josh and Joey are just doing more and doing it better.

By your logic all of those poor kids from Dagestan would never be world or olympic champions. Yet, somehow they manage to produce the best combat athletes in the world year after year. So yeah, facilities and money don’t matter.

I never said other coaches don’t do that. And the fact that they do just makes it all the more obvious that the reason Cleveland has the success that it does, is because the coaching is the best around. Also, what am I entitled to? I have done my part for both Cleveland and TN wrestling. Everything I or my son has received as a coach and wrestler respectively has been earned. You are still implying that transfers, money, and facilities are why Cleveland is great, and still missing the real reason. I also am not being defensive. I honestly couldn’t care less what other people think (and everyone who knows me, knows that to be the case). I am allergic to stupidity and I felt like people need to know that Joey and Josh are not what these idiots on here try to make them out to be. Again, go athlete by athlete through our lineup and prove we are only great because 3 kids moved here in MS (you won’t, because you can’t). Show me one Allen Jones dollar that taught a kid how to win a position (you can’t). If you think facilities make kids good at wrestling, you will have to argue that point as well (I am excited to hear how a building teaches a kid to be great at wrestling). Just saying something is true does not prove that it is true. I can’t wait to hear the incredible genius that proves how a building teaches a kid to get off bottom.

Please stop with the ridiculous recruiting crap. The kids on Cleveland’s team were developed in part or in whole by the Cleveland staff. The vast majority of the kids in the varsity lineup are born and raised in Cleveland. The 3 that moved here out of the 14 starters did so in MS and have reaped the benefits of the great coaching they have received. They were good wrestlers when they came, now they are great. Why? Because they worked their tail off and had coaches who poured into them on a level that you simply do not see at 99% of schools. Let’s not forget that before those families came, Cleveland was already winning state titles. It is laughable that people on here are seeming to imply that Cleveland is only great because they recruit or because Allen Jones gives money to the program. I have been a part of this program for a long time now and my son has never received a dime or a recruiting call. You know what he has gotten? Coaches that sacrifice time, energy, and their personal lives to help kids accomplish their goals and develop into great young men. People come to Cleveland because the community loves wrestling, the coaches are the best around, opportunity to wrestle the best competition in the country, and the program makes the wrestling experience special for the kids. You know why we came to Cleveland? Because when I was neglecting my own son as a busy high school and middle school coach at another school, Josh Bosken was personally driving my kid all over and coaching him. He let him stay his house anytime I had to travel. He coached him hard and made him a great wrestler. He never once recruited us. He made us feel like family, and when it was time for my son to go to school, he said “dad, I want to go to Cleveland where all my friends and coaches are.” You know why we came here? Because Joey Knox is a winner who shows up at 5 am to work one-on-one with kids. Because he goes all over the country and knows every single kid personally in our kid’s club. Because he sleeps in a fireworks tent for two weeks in the summer to sell fireworks so we can afford to travel all over the country with our high school team. Last time I checked, Josh was not paying all those kids from all over the state to come to Bosken trained camps. The same is true for Joey. Stop with recruiting stuff already, and stop with the “Allen Jones made Cleveland great” crap. He has never coached a single kid in our program. Apply those same stupid arguments to our girls program who is ranked #5 in the country and rose to the top of TN in year two. They are just further proof that everything I have said is true. Everyone else just keep making the same tired excuses and keep getting the same results. You claim we recruit, so I challenge you to go weight by weight through our lineup and let’s see how many of those kids were recruited. Heck, I will get you in contact with their parents and you can ask them why they are here (spoiler: it’s not because they are paid).

That is a crazy statement. Joseph Uhrchuck has wrestled at the toughest tournaments in the country every year forever. He was a Tulsa Finalist last year and was in the Gold Pool at VAC every year. Same with Ethan, who, by the way is his brother's practice partner. He is in the deep end every day at practice. While it is not the sole factor, anyone who thinks traveling and wrestling the toughest competition through the developmental years does not have a MAJOR impact on success in high school is crazy. You also don't lose that feel or edge when your two practice partners are both state Champs and kids who have done the same things. Lol.